Ilunga

I am sorry if you were offended by my do some research comment. All the research I have done on operation Wrath of God, leads me to believe that Israel wanted to be proactive, not reactive to terror attacks. They not only targeted terrorists involved in the Munich massacre, they suspected them if committing further acts of terrorism. They targeted other terrorists that they were reasonably certain were going to commit further acts of terror. As I stated, this was a watershed moment for Isreal. If you can provide some links to more information about operation Wrath of God, I am interested in reading it. Edit And read my post again roman. I never stated they made mistakes, even though they did kill a few people that weren't involved, and paid out compensation. I deliberately left that out, as I don't want you to accuse me of being " biased ".

Western suburbs of Melbourne. This is an accurate depiction of the sort of guys we were fighting, and the fights themselves. This was Russell Crowes breakthrough role in a movie called Romper Stomper. He, and other actors hung out in pubs watching the skinheads, studying them, to play them in this movie. Made around the time we were punching on with them. In many ways it's an Australian version of American History X.

I am in total agreement with most of this post. It is not racist to say, that is was western guilt, for well over a millenia of persecution/pogroms culminating in the holocaust, that " western " nations backed the formation of the state of Israel in Isreal/Palestine. There is also no doubt that a great many Jewish people feel a historical/spiritual connection to this land. You talk about a rules based world order, and that's where we start to question, which rules, apply to which nations. The message this war sends to some nations, especially in the south pacific, seems very hypocritical to them. These are just opinion pieces, as the we perceive a rules based order in different ways. As always the key is to " walk a mile in the other person's shoes " " Will the war in Gaza become a breaking point for the rules based international - order https://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/01/will-war-gaza-become-breaking-point-rules-based-international-order Credibility of Chatham House https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/chatham-house-bias/ LEAST BIASED HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING HIGH CREDIBILITY " How Joe Biden sabotaged the world based world order " " By denying that Israel has violated international humanitarian law in Gaza, Washington is discrediting itself and the order that it claims to uphold. " https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/05/10/biden-israel-gaza-arms-rules-based-order/ Credibility of Foreign Policy https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/foreign-policy/ LEAST BIASED HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING HIGH CREDIBILITY " Why the west should stop talking about a rules based world order " " This vague hypocritical mantra designed by the US dominated world that no longer exists is harming international law " https://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/geopolitics/2024/06/why-the-west-should-stop-talking-about-the-rules-based-order Credibility of that source https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-statesman/ LEFT BIAS HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING HIGH CREDIBILITY I could post more articles that state much the same thing. These are " western " sources. Again, if one source tells you something, you listen, go maybe, however if many sources tell you the same thing... Well you have to give that idea the credibility it deserves.

For sure there is both anti semitism and Islamaphobia in most societies. As a kid, racism perplexed me, as a teenager/adult it grew to be one of the few things I hate. Hate being such a waste of emotion. A person asked had people ever fought in a war. I haven't been to war per se, however fighting racist skinheads in the western suburbs of Melbourne felt like a Warzone. Theses guys were true neo Nazi's. They had Nazi tattoos and memorabilia. They not only hated Asians, all the Vietnamese that had come to Melbourne after the war, they hated Jews. Armed with batons and iron bars these fights were extremely dangerous. It was because we were off our heads on drugs and alcohol that we probably didn't realise how dangerous they were. I know I quote my favourite Jewish person a lot, it's his lyricism I admire the most. " It's ok, allow yourself a little hate Hatred is not so bad, when directed at injustice You can turn the other cheek, just don't turn the other way " Mike Burkett

I know you don't. Thanks for saying that. However it really hurts when some keyboard warrior accuses you of something that goes against your moral foundation. As @bishopshodan noted, we have been called pacifists, idealists, and these terms are meant as insults. From what I know @bishopshodan while he is a gentle soul, he is not someone you want to fuck with. I know you want peace. I know that you know that I want peace. And fuck those that think it is idealistic and pacifistic to want to Edit Just watching the vid and seeing scenes of student being beings bashed and treated in the same manner back then, as they are know. We now know who stands on the right side of history in regards to those protests. History always catches up with you.

It is clear that the leadership on both sides don't want an end to this never ending conflict. Each has their various reasons for this. Meanwhile life for an " average " Palestinian sucks, to put it mildly. I keep on hearing that Isreal is the only democracy, the good guys. Well if you are the good guy, surely you are the side that starts reconciliation. And while I certainly condone the killing of Hamas' leaders, do you seriously believe that Palestinians who have watched their families members killed in this current phase will not carry vengeance in their hearts. Violence begets violence. How many times do I have to post that study by a retired American General who expertise was counter - terrorism. He stated that for every civilian killed, that " creates " 10 terrorists. This is only an opinion piece, dated 2 days ago however in it it states https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/14/us/politics/israel-military-gaza-war.html " Hamas has been so damaged in the war that it's officials have told international negotiators it is willing to give up civilian control of Gaza to an independent group after a ceasefire is in place. How long a Hamas will be willing to give up a measure of its power will depend on what happens after a ceasefire, and what concessions Israel is prepared to make, American officials said. " Even if Hamas relinquishes power, as I have pointed out, what about the Palestinians who want vengeance for the death of their loved ones. Just like the Isrealis want vengeance for the death of their loved ones. These guys are the Hatfields and McCoys of the middle east. " And the circle of hatred continues until we react " Rage against the Machine

So would you like to be called a liar ? When you are telling the truth ? I am sick of that hasbara troll calling me a liar, when I have stated factual information, from many credible sources, including Israeli sources. FFS mate he stated I denied that the Isrealis/Jews had any connection to the land of Israel, when I had literally the page before his claim, made statements about the history of the Jewish people in Israel, dating back to the first temple. You state so much about the politics in the region, not just Isreal/Palestine. I don't state you are blaming anyone. It adds context to the discussion. We have a shitload of people supporting Isreal. I support Isrealis right to live in peace and security. FFS I support all peoples right to these things. Here it is in caps for the uncounted time. BOTH SIDES HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THIS NEVER ENDING CONFLICT. BOTH SIDES HAVE SUFFERED. Again it gets down to who has suffered more over the last 70 years. Clearly that is the Palestinians. Again the majority of the people are going into bat for the Isrealis. I am going into bat for the " average" Palestinian, that just wants safety, security and a better future for their kids.

Do some research. While the real story will never be truly known, the Isrealis response to the massacre of 11 their Athletes at the Munich games was not so much about revenge, more about targeting Palestinian terrorists who the Isrealis were reasonably certain would carry out further terror attacks against Isreal/Israeli citizens. Some of these targets had nothing to do with the Munich massacre. This was a watershed moment for the Isrealis, actually taking the front foot, not reacting to a terror attack, massacre, but trying to prevent them.

So do you doubt Netanyahu made that statement about bolstering Hamas' ? That was the reason I posted that article. That publication has a reputation for high factual reporting and high credibility. Here is another article from another source " Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hamas " " The Israeli Prime Minister followed a decades old - divide - and - rule strategy that fuels endless war " https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/ " Wars help hide Political scandals. The ongoing Isreali assualt on Gaza has been singularly useful to prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in sideling popular anger at his governments numerous failings. " " The same is true of Netanyahu's longstanding policy of bolstering Hamas rule in Gaza, including encouraging Israels de facto ally Qatar to finance the terrorist organisation. While the much respected Israeli newspaper Haaretz has covered this issue, it has largely been ignored by the international press. " The credibility of The Nation https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-nation/ LEFT BIAS HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING HIGH CREDIBILITY Another Isreali source " A brief history of the Netanyahu - Hamas alliance" For fourteen years Israels policy was to keep Hamas in power, the pogrom of October 7 2024 helps the Israeli Prime Minister preserve his own rule " https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000 The credibility of Haaretz https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/haaretz/ LEFT BIAS HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING HIGH CREDIBILITY If one source tells you something you listen, if two, three multiple sources that have high credibility tell you the same thing, that makes what they are telling you very credible.

As I have stated before, factual/truthful information is important to me. It is also important in the context of the history of this conflict. As you well know, I believe we should all take responsibility for our own actions. I don't blame others for my mistakes. I own them. The same can be said for Hamas'. I am not making excuses for them. As I keep stating they are a terrorist organisation that abuses their own people, and attacks Israel, killing and injuring Isrealis. The fact of the matter is that Israel, when it suited them, aided and abbetted Hamas', virtually up until the October 7 attack. Why have so many people across the world, and for so long, felt that the Palestinians are victims of injustice ? You know me, we have hung out. You know exactly what sort of person I am. I know exactly what sort of person you are, a person with a good heart. That is the only criteria I have for people that I allow into my life. If citing such truths is a blame game, then any discussion about past or present events is blaming one side or the other. It's not so much about apportioning blame, it's about cause and effect. The reasons/events that fuel this never ending conflict. If a person enables someone/something in their actions, then they have contributed to the eventual outcome. Of course Hamas will do what they want to do no matter what, however the Isrealis, at certain points in time, when it suited them to do so, enabled Hamas'. And as the Times of Israel headline stated, it blew up in their faces. These things are facts. Would you like to be continually called a liar brother ? When you are telling the truth. Like I am pissed mate. Being called a Terrorist. Being told I will have my head rammed into piss. All for telling the truth.

I am not ashamed of anything I have done apart from driving under the influence of drugs and alcohol when I was young and stupid. It's not so much shame, but acknowledging that I was risking other people's lives. One has to own ones mistakes. The only real way to not keep making the same mistakes is to admit to yourself and others that you have made mistakes. That's the first step on the path to not making that same mistake again.

I have posted this a few times Joe. I will do it again for you. This is me. From the age of 16 until my mid forties I did what many would call some crazy shit. My nickname used to be crazy dave. The first person I saw die was playing football in the under 17 team, for my local team Monbulk. A kid I had grown up with, Greg Anderson. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/110957998 Since then, I have seen people die skiing, Mountain Biking and car crashes. I was very angry and upset when i was told I was adopted, made some bad decisions after I left school. Got involved in a " gang" of like minded guys. We did some really crazy shit. Fighting racist skinheads, bikers and bouncers. Probably the craziest thing we did, was driving these really fast cars, GT Falcons, Holden Torana's , off our heads on drugs and alcohol. I am amazed that only a few of us died. I am very lucky that with the help of a few people I managed to turn my life around. As it says in the video, skiing was the catalyst, but it was the people at Mt. Hotham that helped changed my life.

I am really sorry to hear this Joe. What I can tell you is that " blood " doesn't mean much. My " real " father, the man who chose me to be his son- I am adopted - was an Englishman, veteran of the D-day landings. He was told, if he moved to a warmer climate he might live into his forties, due to the severity of his wounds. He made to 87. He taught me about strength of will. About giving 100% and believing in yourself. He has been gone ten years and I still miss him. My biological father was an Australian WW2 veteran. According to my sister, he beat the crap out of mum and my siblings My siblings ended up institutions, my mum went back to her parents. She had to give me up. My son is an IVF child. My ability to create life was taken from me on a football field when I was 16 years old. A knee to the groin. Every single person I have loved dearly has had no biological connection to me. It's the bonds we build by our actions, that builds love.

You triple down on your lies when I have presented evidence from a very credible source. For the third time. " Israels historical role in the rise of Hamas " https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2023/11/21/world/israel-failed-policy/ " The international focus on the war on Gaza has helped obscure the fact that Israel in the 1980's aided the rise of the Islamist Hamas as a rival to the secular Palestinian Liberation Organisation, and it's dominant faction Yasser Arafats Fatah. Israel's policy was clearly influenced by the US's training and arming of the Mujahideen ( or Islamic holy warriors ) in Pakistan in multiple countries to wage jihad against Soviet forces in Afghanistan. " Hamas, for its part, is alleged to have emerged out of the Israeli financed Islamist movement in Gaza, with Israels then military governor in that territory Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev disclosing in 1981 that he had been given a budget for funding Palestinian Islamists to counter the rising power of the Palestinian secularists. HAMAS, A SPIN-OFF OF THE PALESTINIAN BRANCH OF THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD WAS FORMERLY ESTABLISHED WITH ISRAELS SUPPORT SOON AFTER THE FIRST INTIFADA FLARED IN 1987 AS AN UPRISING AGAINST THE ISREALI OCCUPATION OF PALESTINIAN LAND'S. Isreal objective was twofold, to split the nationalist Palestinian movement led by Arafat and, more fundamentally to thwart the implementation of a two state solution for solving the protracted Israeli - Palestinian conflict. By aiding the rise of an Islamist group whose charter rejected recognising the Israeli state, Israel sought to undermine the idea of a two state solution, including curbing western support for an independent Palestinian homeland. Israel's spy agency mossad played a role in this divide and rule game in the occupied territories. In a 1984 book, " The Other Side of Deception " Mossad whistleblower Victor Ostrovsky contended that aiding Hamas meshed with "Mossads general" plan for an Arab world " run by fundamentalists " that would reject " any negotiations with the west " thereby leaving Isreal as " the only democratic, rational country in the region. Avner Cohen, a former Isreali religious affairs official involved in Gaza for over two decades told a newspaper interviewer in 2009 that " HAMAS, TO MY GREAT REGRET IS ISRAELS CREATION ". Isreal by contrast, persisted with its covert nexus with Hamas. With the consent of Israel, Qatar, a long time sponsor of jihadi groups, funneled $1.8 billion to Hamas, just between 2012 and 2021 according to the Haaretz newspaper. " Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who has been in power for much of the last decade and a half told a meeting of his Likud's party's Knesset members " anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas " adding " this is part of our strategy - to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank. " " Isreal like the US, may have been guided by the proverb, " the enemy of my enemy is my friend ". But as history attests, " the enemy of my enemy " far from being far from being a friend, has often openly turned into a foe. " The credibility of my source The Japan Times https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/japan-times/ LEAST BIASED HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING HIGH CREDIBILITY Israeli source " For Years Netanyahu Propped Up Hamas, now it has blown up in our faces. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ The credibility of The Times of Isreal https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/ LEFT- CENTRE BIAS HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING HIGH CREDIBILITY Anyone who has followed this conflict knows that all this information is factual. This makes me think of the words of another one of my favourite Jewish people " Military Intelligence is a contradiction in terms " Julius Henry "Groucho" Marx And yes the Palestinians are pawns. This is a well accepted fact. Tell me, what would you do if you were a Palestinian living in Gaza ? You claimed that they should stop voting th into power. They only voted them in once into power in 2006. In 2007 Hamas took out Fatah and since then they have ruled with an iron fist crushing any descent. Would you have the courage to risk your families lives and stand up to armed fanatical terrorist ? I doubt it.

Gentleness is the best trait there is Joe. My father was the most gentle man I have ever known. The best man I have ever known. I wish I could be more like him. It's hard to judge oneself however I have always been told I have a great deal of empathy for others. I believe that my greatest strength is my determination, to to never give up. I have tried to teach my son many lessons, I tell him if he only remembers two things I have taught him, first always treat others the way you want to be treated yourself, with respect, kindness and compassion. And never, ever give up.

My posts have a history of pumping up communism ? I stated that when I was younger and first read Marx's communist manifesto, I was enamoured of the idea that every was " equal ", had an equal share. I then went to say that communism would never work because it doesn't take into account human nature. You would have made a great case to be on McCarthy's committee. Do you still look for reds under your bed ? And where have I supported terrorism ? Quote me. Seriously, quote a post of mine where I have supported terrorism, or apologise and cut this bullshit. The irony of something one like you who has a terrorist as his username, accusing some one of supporting terrorists is unbelievable. I haven't downed anyone, in fact I apologised if people thought I didn't believe they cared about what is happening to the children in Gaza. I guess you missed that post. Feel free to block me, no one is forcing you to read my posts.

You obviously don't know that he has falsely accused me of stating that I denied Isrealis/Jews have a historical connection to Isreal/Palestine, when literally the page before I had mentioned the first and second temple, and other historical ties that the Jewish people have to that part of the world. He has since tripled down on this. Then he claimed that Isreal had not supported Hamas', from their inception up until the October 7 attack. I have provided evidence from credible sources that they have indeed supported Hamas'. Again he doubled down on that. Then when the UN changed the death toll figures he claimed that there were less Palestinian deaths. As I have posted, the UN did not claim there were less Palestinian deaths, they just couldn't identify all the bodies. What you and @Taxi are doing is a classic propaganda technique. Character assassination. All your contributions to this thread are attacking my character. Just like you are doing now.

Please don't call me an Israeli " blamer ", you know me better than that. I have always stated that one can apportion blame to both Palestinians and Isrealis for this never ending conflict. So many people are quick, and rightly so, to apportion blame to the Palestinians. Very few call out Isreal for their part in this never ending conflict. So much false information is posted in this thread in regards to Israel, and I seem to be the only one that wants to address this. It is evident to any rational person that the Palestinians have suffered far more since the inception of the state of Isreal, compared to the Isrealis. I wonder how you would feel if you had soldiers walking your streets. You have no hope for a better future for your kids. You are stuck between Hamas' on one side, and the IDF on the other. Your community is continually losing homes/land. People threaten to kill you in your home while you sleep. I have answered your challenge. Even though my dream is a one state solution, what the international community and the Palestinians want, is a Palestinian state. Give it to them. How can things be any worse than what they are now ? If they screw the pooch and continue to attack Israel after being given their own state, they will lose all credibility, and the backing of the international community. You have no idea how pissed I am at Hamas', for bringing so much pain onto the Palestinian people for the last 20 years.

And to add to my feelings about Isrealis/Jews who I admire/have had some sort of positive impact on my life. Starting with music, which is a huge part of my life, I love hundreds of bands/musicians and my favourite musician, and one of my favourite people full stop is a Jew, Mike Burkett. Reading is another huge part of my life, after finding out about the holocaust and questioning my teacher about people who have written about the Jewish people, she put me onto Leon Uris. I have read most of his books, Mila 18 and Exodus made deep impacts on me. Yuval Noah Harari is another Jewish Author I admire. Hannah Arendt. Noam Chomsky. Maimonides. Albert Einstein. Sophia " Zoe " Benjamin. And this is just a few of the Jewish authors I admire. There are literally thousands of Jews/Isrealis that have not just made huge contributions to the arts, but made our planet a better place. As I keep on stating roman, Israeli/Jews are just like any other group of people, they have bad to good and everything in-between.

Do you ever think before you post ? Who has posted positive things about Isrealis both helping Palestinians, and working with them, and seperately for peace ? I have Roman.

Anyone who has done any research on the subject of Isreali soldiers being held accountable for harming Palestinians knows that not many of them spend any time in prison. " Under 1% of Israeli army probes yield prosecution" https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-12-22/ty-article/watchdog-under-1-of-israel-army-probes-yield-prosecution/00000185-39de-d5e1-a1e5-7ffe453f0000 Isreali soldiers accused of harming soldiers in the west bank and Gaza strip over the last five years have been indicted in less than 1% of of the hundreds of complaints against them, an Israeli rights group reported. The Watchdog argued that Israels military fails to conduct a credible prosecution of itself. " This Times of Israel article details which Israeli soldiers spend time in military prison and why Isreali are imprisoned at a rate of 67 times that of civilians. " About 1-15 Isreali soldiers were jailed last year - and that's an improvement " https://www.timesofisrael.com/with-1-in-15-soldiers-jailed-last-year-idf-rethinks-its-rules-of-incarceration/ " Some 10,000 troops spent time in military prison in 2018, most for minor offenses and the majority from poor backgrounds, and that's better than in the past. " " Soldiers from Israels Ethiopian community in particular are incarcerated at rates disproportionate to their numbers in the military. " On Soldier, Shani Baliti was sentenced to s 20 days in military prison for refusing an order to put her hair in a ponytail. "

This link has and audio interview with an Israeli journalist I was listening to yesterday. He states that's since Israel's inception, it is the only " western " style democracy that has press censorship. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/latenightlive/censorship-israel-haggai-matar-972/104220556 I have read enough articles, and seen enough docos, reports on Israel, to know that the Israeli people are not being allowed to see what we, here in other countries are seeing, in regards to what is happening in Gaza.

Yeah. I have been called idealistic, a pacifist. These are meant as insults. I have had one poster backhandedly state he will ram my face into piss. Same poster told me to fuck off. The reason why Israel has backed down somewhat is because there has been international pressure on them to do so. We must always speak out against injustice, especially when you might be unpopular for doing so.

I am the same person empathy wise, as I was when I was a kid. I hung out with guys that are covered in tattoos and society looked down on, and we never hassled or picked on people that had any sort of disability. Quite the opposite, we made sure they knew we respected them. One of us, Johnny D, had an intellectual disability. He was one of the kindest people you would ever meet. While I am aware that certain people bully others, that statement was fucked up. I don't like it when someone calls people animals. That's an insult to animals. Animals don't choose to abuse, denigrate or treat each other despicably.

I don't really care what context you are using this analogy in, it's just a fucked up thing to say full stop. I don't know what school you went to, but while there were bullies around back in my school days, no one, but no one, picked on the classmate of ours who was intellectually challenged.