Ilunga

Ahh Jim. Where did I ever state fundamentalist Muslims are pro gay ?

I know you brother. I have already commented that you had the compassion to post in the thread I started about the Humanitarian crisis in Gaza. I will think about starting one in the next few days. As I have already stated, I became aware of their situation due to a TISM song. Remember we saw them perform for the first time in 20 at the Good things festival in 2022.

Again, where did I say it was ? I actually posted articles about gay Imam's in our societies. So I have already made the point you are making. This whole conversation started because a poster stated, they kill gay people in Gaza. I refuted this by posting an article by an NGO that helps LGBT people across the world. The article was specifically about Gaza.

Speaking of genetically testing Jewish people. https://en.idi.org.il/articles/26956 " The high bar set by Halakha for gaining recognition as Jew, has in recent years been raised even higher by a disturbing trend of using genetic testing to establish candidates' Jewishness - essentially a geneticization of the Jewish people. Currently, such tests are private iniativies that the state's rabbinical courts are prepared to accept as evidence of Jewishness. The willingness of an official body to adopt genetic testing as proof of Jewishness marks the first step in the creation of a genetically based Judaism and the widespread use of genetic databases. Beyond the fact that the use of genetics to prove Jewishness is distasteful, it constitutes a dramatic deterioration of the way we define Jewish people. This is a revolution that must be nipped in the bud. " How would you feel if you were forced to take a " Canadian " genetic test. I wonder what our athiests think about the state's Rabbinical courts, and their actions in regards to this.

Again, I started a thread on the humanitarian situation in Gaza on the old board. It was, and still is one of the worst humanitarian crises. Apart from @Canuck Surfer and @Gurn and one other poster, no one gave a fuck. You know what gets under my skin. Human suffering. Wherever that is. I would start a thread about the Kurds, a subject I brought up on the old board a few time's. I know that no one really gives a fuck about them either.

You have the courage to reply. Big time respect. @Taxi originally posted that information. I refuted it then with more detailed information. An article by, The Lancet, one of, if not the worlds most prestigious medical journal. The article detailed how the numbers of dead, women and children were determined.

It certainly does in the context that gay men have suffered persecution everywhere, including the societies we live in. Well into our lifetimes. If you want to keep this conversation limited to the treatment of gay men in Gaza. I am still waiting for you to provide some evidence/facts for your claim, I am calling Bullshit on this, in reply to my article written by an NGO that supports LGBTQ people around the world, and their report on Gaza.

You should know Jan, I am pro human. Dunno how many times I have stated you can take any group of human beings and find, good to bad, and everything in between. Again, I have stated that most people just want a safe place to raise their kids. Food on the table, access to an education, the most basic, fundamental human rights. I have stated that my " dream " solution would be a one world solution. Were we view each other as brothers and sisters. Were we respect the flora and fauna we share this planet with. Eric Idle and John Du Prez nailed it when they wrote " And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space 'Cause it's bugger all down here on earth "

Why do you ignore what I state in some posts, then try and twist what I post to mean something they don't. I have stated, and posted articles about what it means to be gay in Gaza. Some of those articles are written by, or about the experiences of gay men in Gaza. And I haven't even mentioned Iran. I know very well the persecution gay men face in that country. I posted those articles about gay Imam's to illustrate that even a " conservative " religion such as Islam can change. It starts in progressive countries like ours. It isn't that long ago, well within my lifetime that gay men suffered persecution in our societies. You guys in Canada were leading in way in regards to LGBT rights. In 2005, you were only the fourth country in the world to legalise same sex marriage. That's not even 20 years ago. We here in Australia didn't do it until 2017. Right up until I was fucking up after leaving school, there was a particular sort of moron over here that used to indulge in " poofter " bashing. Sydney that is, and has been famous for over 40 years, in regards to the gay Mardi gras, that has been held there since 1978. It is also notorious for gay gang murders and hate crimes, that happened from 1970 - 2010. Peaking in the late 80's, early 90's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_gang_murders So as I have stated Jim. Being gay in Gaza isn't easy, just as isn't easy in other parts of the world.

Brother I have already addressed this claim a couple of pages ago. " UN denies death toll of women and children has been revised down " https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-ministry-revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/ Bottom line, there are still the same amount of dead bodies, 10,000 haven't been identified. As I detailed in a previous post, some of those bodies are unrecognisable. That's why reputable media aren't reporting this.

I am certainly not stating life is easy for gay men in Gaza. I posted this article a week or two ago. It gives an insight into gay life in Gaza. https://time.com/6326254/queering-the-map-gaza-lgbt-palestinians/ .

Where the fuck did I say they are pro gay ? Did you read my post that detailed a gay Palestinian man from Gaza stated " LGBT life is arduous and dangerous ". As he then went on to say, as it is in many parts of the world. I then provided evidence of fundamentalists in America and Isreal that share the same views as, some Muslims fundamentalists. I present facts, with links to evidence to back up claims. You are welcome to doubt what you want, that's your privilege. You made an assertion. Can you provide facts/evidence to back up that assertion ? In some countries Muslim Imams themselves are coming out as gay Here in Aus https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-09/gay-imam-hopes-to-open-australias-first-lgbti-friendly-mosque/9310952 In France https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/06/gay-imam-islam-paris-france-mosque/ In the US https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/meet-daayiee-abdullah-america-s-gay-imam-1.3109051 In Toronto A mosque that welcomes gay people. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/affirming-mosques-help-gay-muslims-reconcile-faith-sexuality-n988151 As I have already illustrated there are fundamentalists in Judaism, Islam and Christianity that condemn LGBT people. It isn't only limited to Islamist fundamentalists.

The words of a Palestinian gay man from Gaza @Bob Long " LGBT life is arduous and dangerous. I would know. I grew up there. However only blaming Palestine's conversatism and Hamas white washing Isreal siege and military assaults, is dishonest and exploitative. " " The fact of the matter is that Jamil's clandestine gay life is a familiar experience nearly everywhere in the world, from rural American towns, to conservative Israeli cities and illegal settlements in the West Bank. Palestine is no exception. Speaking of those American towns " Texas pastor says gay people should be 'shot in the back of the head' in achieving sermon. " https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/texas-pastor-says-gay-people-shot-back-head-shocking-sermon-rcna32748 And then there is this Guy, a minister in Netanyahu's government. https://www.timesofisrael.com/coalition-mk-lgbtq-community-poses-greater-threat-to-israel-than-hezbollah-or-hamas/ " In my world view the most dangerous thing to the state of Israel - more than the Islamic state, more than Hezbollah, more than Hamas - is the permissiveness regarding arayot, because that's what the Torah says, Pindrus says, using a term used for sexual relationships and practice's that are forbidden by the bible and by Jewish law, including intercourse between men among many other examples not related to LGBTQ people. "

Why do people continually deny evidence that is provided to them. I will take the evidence provided by an organisation that works with, and supports LGBT people across the world, over someone's opinion. An organisation that has actually investigated what is happening in Gaza in relation to LGBT people. They, Hamas', has had the chance for the last 20 years to, as you put it, " eliminate them " Provide some facts/evidence Jim for your assertion.

The Detroit Redwings terminate Calle Sjalin's contract. He has signed for the Swedish Club Rogle BK. https://www.eliteprospects.com/transfer/2024/05/14/calle-sjalin-in-a-confirmed-transaction-to-rogle-bk/560639

If you under the impression that you would be killed if you are gay in Gaza, then you be wrong. https://www.humandignitytrust.org./country-profile/palestine/ " Same sexual activity is prohibited in Gaza under the British mandate Criminal Code Ordinance 1936. The relevant provision carries a maximum penalty of ten years' imprisonment. Only men are criminalised under this law. The law was inherited from the British. It continues to be in operation in Gaza today though it is not in force elsewhere in Palestine. There is little evidence of the law being enforced, and it appears to be largely obsolete in practice. However an incident in 2017 saw an author being threatened with prosecution for writing a novel which included LGBT themes. There do not appear to be any other reports of enforcement of the criminalising law or other laws. Nevertheless, the mere existence of this provision is itself a violation of human rights and underpins further acts of discrimination. " Source for that article Human Dignity Trust https://www.fatbeehive.com/case-study/human-dignity-trust/ It's an British based NGO that works with LGBT activists globally, assisting them to use the law to defend their rights. Now for women being able to access a tertiary education. While this is still hard, both at a cultural and economic level, some still find a way. And there is even a scholarship program available. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/women-gaza-education-university-b2311778.html

This is what I do both in life and on this board. And I have lost track of the amount of times I have stated this, in this thread.

Yes I totally understand respect for someone else's traditions or way of life. Again, fucking with others covers the Platinum rule. In the example you gave, taking off your shoes in their house is showing you respect them. You are not hurting any one by doing this. I have sort of changed the wording of my golden rule over the years. It's simple. Don't fuck with others. Others will fuck with you, thats inevitable. However all we can truly take to the grave with us is being true to ourselves. My experience is the hardest things to do in life, are the most important and rewarding. Even if they don't feel like that at the time. Cheers brother. Wish there were more people like you in this world, and on this board. Hope you have settled into your new job. I saw you had an issue. @Gurn voiced my feelings on that. I hope it all turned OK.

I stated, I treat people as I would like to be treated. Not how they would like to be treated. I will treat people the way they like to be treated if they don't fuck with others. Hamas' has not, and does not treat the Isrealis, the way they wish to be treated, they fuck with them, so I say fuck them. Israel has not, and is not treating Palestinians the way they wish to be treated, they fuck with them, so I say fuck them. If a person's beliefs, in this case religious beliefs, are impacting others in a negative manner, damaging or limiting them as you put it, as they are in this case, then I have the right to tell them, fuck their beliefs. Fuck those " sacred " sites that have been the cause of so much human suffering. And they " export " their suffering to other parts of the world. My mum and dad were very religious. Not only did they not fuck with others, they helped others. I to find great comfort going to their grave every few months, putting fresh flowers on it and having a chat. One can describe that experience in any way they wish. It is a very personal experience. One that doesn't involve fucking with others. Christmas is a festival the Christians appropriated from the Romans. It was a festival called Saturnalia. It was first celebrated on December 17, and then was extended to 3, then 7 days. It made conversion to Christianity easier. Sadly I have been to a few funerals in the last year or so. If you call finger food traditional Aussie funeral food, then that is what we were served. Again, what has any of this have to do with those " sacred " sites in Jerusalem. And peoples willingness, not only kill for them, but also kill in their name ? Again I say human life is sacred. I say we should view the planet, and the flora and fauna we share this planet with as precious things. We are trashing the planet we live on. Our actions are causing an global extinction rate that been labelled as unparalleled, and people are fighting over some buildings ? While not exactly pertinent, this Cree proverb fits my narrative " When the last tree is cut down, the last fish caught, the last river poisoned, only then will we realise that we can't eat money "

As you know, I am agnostic. I have defended religious people in the god thread. I call some really good people my friends. The best people I have ever known were religious. My parents. For putting up with me alone they deserve " saint hood "

A person has the right to tell people what they to do with their beliefs, once those beliefs start impacting others in a negative manner. Apart from that as I have always stated, I will defend your right to do whatever you want, whenever you want. So long as you don't fuck with others in the process. Be a furry, a pagan, an athiest, religious whatever. Just don't fuck with others.

I wish we applied that same sense of " sanctity " we apply to these supposedly holy/sacred sites, to the planet we live on.

Maybe they should have talked to the actual scientific institutions, people from Johns Hopkins and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. " The Science is clear: Over 30,000 people have died in Gaza " https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/ " Actually the next numbers are conservative. The science is extremely clear. " In December the medial journal, The Lancet critiques of the death surveillance process done by extremely experienced scholars at Johns Hopkins and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. Both concluded that the Gazan numbers were plausible and credible, albeit by different techniques and logic. " The article then goes on to explain those techniques. Cut to the chase " Their are certain building blocks of society that require agreement for us to work well collectively. Society is weaker and discourse less productive if we cannot agree on at least a few basic things. In the case of Gaza, acknowledging that there was an appalling and I extremely deadly attack on October 7th, and that over 30,000 Gazans have died since, mostly women and children, seems like the most basic cornerstones of reality on which to move toward constructive discussion and resolution. " The medical journal, The Lancet, the information from which that article was based on. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-lancet/ Factual reporting Very High Pro Science These sources consist of legitimate science or are evidence based through the use of credible scientific sourcing. Legitimate follows the scientific method, is unbiased and does not use emotional words. Bias Rating Pro Science Factual Reporting Very High MBFC CREDIBILITY RATING High Credibility Here is that Lancet article. " No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza ministry of health " https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext So let's look at this closer shall we. Why has the UN revised it numbers. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-women-children-death-toll-1.7203167 " There's another 10,000 plus bodies that still have to be identified " Haq told reporters in New York on Monday, " and so then the details of those - which of those are children - which of those are women - that will be re- established once the full indentification process is complete. " " Unites Nations trans in Gaza are unable to independently verify these figures, given the prevailing situation on the ground and the sheer number of the fatalities " Erik Kaneko, an OCHA Spokesperson said in an email to CBC News. She confirmed that the state of many of the bodies makes it difficult to identify them. " And then we have the from 2 hours ago " UN Denies Death Toll of Women and Children has Been Revised Down " https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-ministry-revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed

You bet I can tell people that their beliefs suck, if acting on behalf of their beliefs impacts others in a negative manner. That's why we all condemn Hamas'. They are using violence in the name of their beliefs. That's why some of us condemn Israeli settlers, they use violence in the name of their beliefs. Also taking land that belongs to someone else in the name of their beliefs. As for these " sacred " sites in Jerusalem. The sheer amount of human suffering that has been caused in their name over the Millennia gives me the right, to voice my " belief ", that the sanctity of human life outweighs the sanctity of those supposed " sacred " sites. You have failed to grasp the meaning of Black Elk's words, especially when one considers them in the context of the American first nations people. Did you note he was their spiritual leader ? He was not their religious leader, first nations people did not have religion. Their " sacred " sites were the mountains, the plains, the natural world. They not only had a spiritual connection with the earth, they had a spiritual connection with the flora and fauna they shared the earth with. Do you ever wonder why places like Australia and North America were pristine environments when the British and Europeans first came to these places ? It was because of the spiritual connection first nations people had with the land, and the flora and fauna. And before you state that the Israelis and the Palestinians have a spiritual connection to Israel/Palestine, they don't. They have a religious/ historical connection. Religion and spirituality are totally different things. So yes I do believe that Black Elk's words are truly wise. That all land/ nature is precious. That all the species of flora and fauna play a distinct role, the bio diversity of our planet. As I have stated before, more wise words from a first nations elder " We don't inherit the earth, we borrow it from our children " Chief Seattle

Again, what's more important, human life, buildings, or a wall ? And I am a believer that we should maintain to the best of our ability historical sites, buildings/artifacts. However when those sites, buildings and artifacts cause so much Bullshit. Do you realise how many people have been killed fighting over these " sacred " sites over the last 2500 hundred years ? You can shove those " sacred " sites where the sun don't shine. They have been the cause of so much pain and suffering. If those " sacred " sites didn't exist, maybe this shit wouldn't be happening in regards to Jerusalem. I have this great idea in regards to people having something to believe in. Believe that we are all brothers and sisters under the sun. That all the species we share this planet with have a purpose in the scheme of things. As Black Elk, the Oglala Sioux spiritual leader stated " The holy land is everywhere "