Ilunga

Capitalism is working out great heh ? Government oversight ? How's that working out for the American people ? This is how it's working out. " The Top 1 percent Of Americans Have Taken 50 Trillion From the Bottom 90 percent - And That's Made The US Less Secure https://time.com/5888024/50-trillion-income-inequality-america/ Last year https://medium.com/@stellar.alchemist/wealth-inequality-in-america-visualized-for-2023-fbf85af4bfb4 " Wealth inequality in the United States has reached staggering levels. According to data from the Federal Reserve, the top 1 percent of Americans now own more wealth than the bottom 90 percent combined. This means that a tiny fraction of the population controls a disproportionately large share of the country's resources, leaving the vast majority struggling to make ends meet. " Yes, the American people might be " free " to elect their leaders, and what fantastic choices they have. Always the choice between the lesser of two evils. As we all face in our western democracies. However, be it democrats or republicans, since the Reagan administration and his trickle down economics BS, there has actually been an opposite effect. A dirty great flood of wealth to those at " the top ".

No, I don't like arguing with you. I am disheartened by your " backhanded " comments in regards to the Palestinians. That post I replied to, you didn't just say it was a good thing that the Palestinians were finally starting to reject Hamas. You sarcastically stated it had only taken them four months. As I pointed out, it's been hard for them to focus on anything else than surviving for the last four months. What would your first priority be in that situation ? Mine would be to try and survive and keep my family alive. And there have been your posts where you have mocked their situation in regards to receiving aid. The post where you mentioned Boko Haram in regards to giving them aid, when the conversation was about Palestinians receiving aid. Tell that wasn't an attempt to associate one of the worlds deadliest jihadist terror groups, with Palestinian civilians. Those scumbags have killed over 20,000 people, and displaced 2 million more. This is almost exactly what has/is happening to the Palestinians in Gaza. There was also that post where you tried making up a scenario to paint that Mayor of Palestinian village as some sort of provocateur, as though it was his fault armed Isreali civilians had the right to threaten him, and an Australian film crew, simply for showing them around his village. Apart from that, I totally agree with you that it is a really good thing that the Palestinians are finally realising that Hamas is the cause of their of problems in regards to them being their " leaders ". As I have said all along I believe they deserve leaders who should be helping them, as we all do. I have even posted suggestions/ideas about who those leaders should be. Palestinians who promote peace.

My Heeb mate The Irrationality of rationality " Helen was living in her car, trying to feed her kids She got laid off from work and her house was repossessed It's hard to think clearly when it's 38 degrees Desperate people have been know to render desperate deeds But when she shot that family and moved into their home The paper read she suffered from dementia " Me Aisha was living in a tent trying to feed her kids Her house had been blown up and she had no where else to live It's hard to think clearly when you are continually being attacked Desperate people have been known to render desperate deeds So just because there's more important things- like feeding your family- than protesting your oppressors A poster on a hockey forum will mock you One example of the irrationality of rationality theory, dehumanisation.

Brother, Arafat died nearly 20 years ago. It's hard for a court to hold " merit " when the supposed leader of " the free world " doesn't even recognise it.

First off, you are the most balanced poster in this IMO. The point about the " right " to rape is not disputed by anyone in this thread. There is no justification for rape anytime, anywhere full stop ! In regards to finger pointing, as that article stated, the issue of Netanyahu's support of Hamas is largely ignored by the international press, and totally unacknowledged by the posters who so vocally support only Israel in this thread. And you bet I will " point my finger " at that corrupt asshole. As I have stated before, he is the middle easts version of PO1135809. As for land theft, that and the status of east Jerusalem are two of the biggest hurdles to a peaceful resolution to this conflict. As you well know, some posters don't believe it is land theft. They won't answer my question when I ask, how are the Palestinians meant to form a viable state, when they continually keep losing land ? Hamas in the west bank ? There has been reports of the odd Hamas fighter being killed in the west Bank however there is no evidence they have a significant presence. There are several terror organisations in the west bank however it gets back to actually granting the Palestinians a state of their own. Once that is done they will have no any sort of justification to fight in any way for a state of their own, they will have one. And no I don't believe they should use violence of any sort to fight for self determination. Give peace a chance by giving them their state. You know who I think will be ideal candidates for positions in a future Palestinian government, the Palestinian peacemakers that I have posted articles about. Remember these guys ? Combatants for Peace. I have posted several articles and videos about them. Here they are only a few weeks ago still having a crack towards a peaceful resolution to this conflict. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/10/world/middleeast/israelis-palestinians-peace-activists.html How about these guys They say our Youth are are future... Youth Against Settlements They use peaceful and non violent means to promote their message. https://www.vice.com/en/article/yvxznb/seeking-the-nonviolent-path-for-peace-in-hebron-396 " Amro is amongst dozens of leaders across the West Bank and east Jerusalem using non violent tactics, civil disobedience and direct action to challenge Isreals occupation. The work of these activists has gone largely unrecognised, with most of the international media attention focusing on rockets launched from Gaza and the increasing dominance of the right wing in Israeli politics. But for the past eight years, the group has been working to instill the principles of non violent resistance and civil disobedience in the hearts of Hebron's Palestinian youth, even if no-one is watching. " People want answers, new ideas, here are some. Do I believe this will be an easy process....fuck no. But we have to start somewhere. And I know you are conversant with my feelings on justice, in regards to your comments on self justice.

When you are referring to the world courts, you are talking about the International Criminal Court ? Or as it's also known the ICJ. The court that the US considers has no Jurisdiction, no Legitimacy and no Authority. Same with Israel.

Yes, surely you remember the thread I started about Yemen. The thread that only you and @Gurn out of the regular contributors to this thread, contributed to I have also brought up the Sudan on the old sight. You asked another poster about where they were when those events were happening. Well that could be asked of all the posters in this thread apart from you two guys. That the selective denunciation, and selective humanity, I have mentioned before. As for authorities in Gaza, I have already offered a suggestion, independent observers, peace keepers. Let's us, the " west " show them some kindness and compassion. As I have already pointed out, kindness changes peoples views on others. Not only that, it might inspire them to build a better society for themselves.

How does pointing out the truth, providing factual information, not help give an insight into what is happening right now ? It's is the actions of what has happened in the past, that has lead us to where we are now. And not the distant past. That's why I posted about Netanyahu's support of Hamas, right up until the October 7 attack. As I have pointed there has been a deliberate attempt by many of the Isreali administrations to prevent to two state solution. FFS I provided information from a Mossad whistleblower that is was Isreali policy to have a Muslim extremist group in charge of Gaza. You haven't given me a valid reason why the option I suggested should not be tried. Again how can it be worse than what has happened in the last 50 - 60 years of endless violence ?

The Mexican cartels make the Palestinians and Israelis look like like peace organisations. Just read 41,034 dead in war conflicts between indentified parties 2006 - present Total 350,000 - 400,00 dead from organised crime homicides 2006 - present. I watched a doco a few years ago. Mutialated bodies hanging in the streets of Cities in Mexico. Mass graves. Brutal shit.

Not only did Isreal support Hamas to begin with, Netanyahu continued to support them. Right up until the October 7 attack. " Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hama " https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/ " The same is true of Netanyahu's long standing policy of bolstering Hamas rule in Gaza, including encouraging Israels defacto ally Qatar to finance the terrorist organisation. While the much respected Israeli newspaper Haaretz has covered this issue, it has been largely ignored by the international press. On Sunday the New York Times gave prominence to the long standing Netanyahu - Hamas connection in a detailed and lengthy report. According to the newspaper Just weeks before Hamas launched the deadly Oct. 7 attacks on Israel, the head of the Mossad arrived in Doha, Qatar for a meeting with Qatari officials. For years the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza strip - money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu not only tolerated those payments, he encouraged them. According to the Times Israeli intelligence agents travelled into Gaza with a Qatari official carrying suitcases filled with cash to disperse money. Retired Isreali general Shlomo Brom described the logic of Netanyahu's position: one effective way to prevent a two state solution is to divide between the Gaza strip and the west bank. If extremist Hamas ruled Gaza - them the Palestinian authority - a comprised comprador government with a tenuous hold on the West Bank - would be further weakened. This according to Brom would Netanyahu to say, I have no partner. In 2015 Bezalel Smotrich, currently the finance minister in Netanyahu's government summed up the strategy by stating, The Palestinian Authority is a burden, Hamas is an asset. " Right from the start, Israels support for Hamas is a front for them to deny the Palestinians a state of their own. The evidence is overwhelming. People want an answer, I have already given them one, and I will do it again. Allow the Palestinians a state of their own. Enforce free and fair elections, with independent observers to oversee them. Provide Palestinians with the means to form a viable state. This means the west bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem. That is a bit less than a quarter of what was once called Palestine. How can the results of doing this be any worse than the events of the last 50 - 60 years. If the Palestinians refuse to renounce violence and continue with missile attacks, then they will have lost all legitimacy. If people really support the Palestinians right to their own state and the right of self determination, give me one good reason why these ideas should not be implemented.

Hamas a terror group Israel helped create. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2023/11/21/world/israel-failed-policy/ " Hamas for it's part, is alleged to have emerged out of the Isreali financed Islamist movement in Gaza with Israels then military governor in that territory, Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev disclosing in 1981 that he had been given a budget for funding Palestinian Islamists to counter the rising power of the Palestinian secularists. Hamas a spin off of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood was formally established with Israels support soon after the first Intifada flared as an uprising against the Isreali occupation of Palestinian lands. Israels objective was twofold: to split the Palestinian nationalist movement led by Arafat and, more fundamentally to thwart the implementation of the two state solution for resolving the protracted Israeli - Palestinian conflict. By aiding the rise of an Islamist group whose charter rejected recognising the Israeli state. Israel sought to undermine the idea of a two state solution, including curbing western support for an independent Palestinian homeland. Isreals spy agency mossad played a role in this divide and rule game in the occupied territories. In a 1994 book , " The Other Side of Deception " Mossad whistleblower Victor Ostrovsky contended that aiding Hamas meshed with " Mossads general plan for an Arab world " run by fundamentalists " thereby leaving Isreal as " the only democratic rational country in the region " Avner Cohen a former Isreali religious affairs official involved in Gaza for over two decades told a newspaper interview in 2009 that, " Hamas, to my great regret, Israels creation. " Yes, Hamas, the terror group that Netanyahu propped up and Supported. " For Years Netanyahu Propped Up Hamas. Now It's Blown up in our faces. " The premiers policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood has resulted in wounds that will take years to heal. " https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Here I am stuck in the middle with you...

This quote while not from a political leader, I believe is more pertinent in relation to finding a peaceful resolution to this conflict. " We need political leadership that will move the world away from war into solving it's problems through dialogue and negotiation, to build friendship with people, which is not we've had with this war on terror " Mairead Corrigan Do you remember that article I posted about the Road to Recovery organisation in Isreal and the occupied territories. The anecdote about the Palestinian woman who had never met a Jewish person who had been kind to her until she met the person who volunteered to drive her kids to hospital ? Gave her kids sweets. How that changed her view of Isrealis. So many people underestimate the power of kindness and empathy to change peoples beliefs.

I will play. Have to get off my arse and start working a bit more, so my contributions will be later in the evening/ night your time. Might try and post a bit before I start work in the morning.

There was one main reason the US invaded Iraq. Oil. Cheney had been on Bush's back about finishing the job his " daddy " started ten years ago. https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/iraq-war-oil-juhasz/index.html " Oil was not the only goal of the Iraq war but it was the central one, as top military and political figures have attested to in the years following the invasion " Cheney was dividing up Iraq's oil deposits before the war. https://www.metrowestdailynews.com/story/news/2008/07/03/editorial-dividing-up-iraq-s/41304903007/ "There have been reports of maps circulating in federal offices, well before the war, identifying Iraqi oil deposits and US oil firms that could extract them. " As for Saddam being a prick, that is an understatement. However when it suited the US in the Iran - Iraq war he was " their prick", supporting his dictatorship when it suited them. Just like they supported the Shahs brutal dictatorship when it suited them. As I posted in in the conscription thread, article about dictatorships and Warlords the US has supported over the years. " He may be an SOB, but he's our SOB " And I totally agree all those guys you have mentioned are not just pricks, that are criminals that deserve to stand trial in the international court. I feel sorry for the people in the middle east who have to live under despotic leaders. How do you feel about Mohammad Bin chain saw ? Who is the titular head of one of the worlds most authoritarian regimes. They are great buddies with the US https://theconversation.com/saudi-arabia-is-a-repressive-regime-and-so-are-a-lot-of-us-allies-105106 " Saudi Arabia ranks just above north Korea on political rights, civil liberties and other measures of freedom according to the democracy watchdog Freedom House " I could post many more articles about the " West's " hypocrisy when it comes to freedom and justice.

That " dude " is the mayor of his village. Those groves are a part of his village. What valid reason do armed settlers have to rock up and threaten not just the mayor of the town, also an Australian film crew ? You keep on saying that this " problem '' can't be solved on a chat forum, yet you still contribute to the discussion we are all having. This is a discussion about an event that many people in our world society have strong views about. Many of us want Isrealis and Palestinians to live together in peace and harmony. Many of us are horrified by the events of October 7, and the events since. And events that predate this current phase of this ongoing conflict.

I have continually stated that violence is never justified. That both sides committing violence, contribute to this conflict. Rock throwing, land theft, none of this is justification for the horrific crimes both sides have committed. This cycle of trauma driven violence has to be broken somehow. We need new ideas, something I have stated many times.

Seriously ? The reporter asked to be shown around the village. The groves were part of the village that the Mayor took the reporter to. He showed him around other parts of the village, the reporter visited a couple of families in their homes. This was a ten odd minute story on a world news report, on our 24 hour news station. And now you are making up scenarios ? I am quite sure the ABC would love to film and show to the world Isreali settlers giving Palestinian people flowers. That's not only extremely newsworthy, it's also something " our ABC " loves to do. Promote good/happy stories. So what you are stating, but in a backhanded way, is what the Isreali security forces stated when they rolled up, in the words of the reporter they were advised to leave. Also after that report, the team visited the Israeli settlement that was right next to the Palestinian village. He tried to talk to people but no one wanted to talk to him. Again, Israeli security forces rolled up and " advised " them to leave.

Can you imagine what would happen here in Australia or Canada if police fired at, and/or killed teenagers throwing stones ? There would be a massive public outcry. You state, and correctly so that there are many more Israeli victims than those figures attest to. Well the same applies to the Palestinians. Who are victims of assualt, having their homes taken away from them. It is obvious to anyone who has followed this conflict that one side pays a far greater human " price " than the other. I , as many others continually state, if the Palestinians were allowed a state of their own maybe this violence will come to an end. This is a solution the world wants both sides to try. What has been tried so far hasn't worked. I have neglected nothing in regards to any attrocities you have brought up. I addressed this, using Eyal Mayroz's statement " Selective denunciation of attrocities based on ones support or rejection of a cause, any cause, is not only morally flawed but counter productive as well. RESISTANCE TO ANY AND ALL ATTROCITIES SHOULD BE PROACTIVE, DECISIVE AND RESOLUTE " And in regards to that statement, my peaceful, non violent views are well known, and mocked on this forum. And talking about Jihadist wars, whose actions totally destabilized the middle east and created the condition for the birth of ISIS ? The US by illegally invading Iraq. If the Palestinians have the west bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem, that is roughly a quarter of what was once called Palestine. Do you believe that they can form a viable state with any amount of territory/ land that is less than this ? Meanwhile over 2.2 million people in Gaza are facing high levels of acute food insecurity or worse, with one in four households facing catastrophic conditions. Imagine if the roles were reversed ?

I didn't know that you can call any civilians deaths fair. And again those figures are from 2008 - 2020. Nothing to do with this current phase of this never ending conflict. You sound exactly how Eyal Mayroz described the Israeli media. Continually stating the same narrative over and over again, while at the same time dehumanising Palestinians who had nothing to do with the October 7 attack, or any attacks on Isrealis at all. There's that selective denunciation he was talking about. As he stated, this is not only morally flawed, it is counter productive in regards to finding a peaceful solution to this conflict. This is why injustice continues to flourish in this world, people like you find ways to justify it.

That isn't what I witnessed on the news the other night. I witnessed armed Isreali settlers threaten a Palestinian and an Australian film crew when they visited a Palestinian villages olive groves. And not according to this article. https://www.npr.org/2024/02/19/1231129046/israeli-settlers-palestinians-violence-hebron-west-bank And this isn't what the leaders of our respective governments state. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/13/albanese-calls-for-gaza-ceasefire-in-joint-statement-with-nz-and-canada-pms They aren't selective in their condemnation of injustice. " We condemn rising ant semitism, Islamophobia, and anti Arab sentiment in our countries and around the world and remain firmly committed to combatting prejudice, hatred and violent extremism, the three Prime Ministers said. " Why do you mock the fact that millions are on the edge of starving ?

Who said they had to ? I pointed out that there was 115,000 more Palestinians either killed or injured in that timespan, years before the October 7 attack. You called me biased. I have condemned the 7 October attack. I have condemned Hamas and stated they should be removed. I condemn the Palestinians who killed or injured over 5,800 Isreali in the timespan that article I referred to. You are selective in your condemnation of attrocities committed in this conflict. As Eyal Mayroz stated, this is a morally flawed position to take. Do you think you are better informed about the situation in regards to this conflict than Eyal ? An Israeli who worked as a counter terrorism intelligence officer in the IDF. What is your experience in regards to this conflict ? Do you think you have better insights than he does into how to resolve this conflict ? He is a senior lecturer in peace and conflict studies. What is your profession ? You haven't even got the moral courage to admit you were wrong when you called me a liar.

Whoa, " each seems to have a friend mutilated in a suicide bombing or near miss with a missile attack from Gaza " ? Don't you remember the figures I have posted twice already. https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ Again this is only from 2008 - 2020 the closest I could find that matches Hamas' rule. So bottom line 5,600 Palestinian died 115,000 injured While during the same period 250 Israelis died 5,600 injured. Thats a shitload more Palestinians who will have a friend that is fucked up or dead up during that time. As for the rest of your post, the last couple of paragraphs at the end of my last post covers it all " Selective denunciation of attrocities based on ones support or rejection of a cause, any cause, is not only morally flawed, but counter productive as well. Resistance to any and all attrocities should be proactive, decisive and resolute. " Those who have been severely aggreived may struggle to apply the same yardstick to others. But the rest of us could and should. We can do better. "

This article written by Eyal Mayroz Ex captain in the IDF, counter - terrorism. Now he is a senior lecturer at Sydney Uni in Peace and conflict studies, discipline sociology and criminology. Background includes genocide studies and counter terrorism. " The " day after " the war: Is peace possible when Isrealis and the rest of the world view the Gaza can conflict so differently " https://www.abc.net.au/religion/eyal-mayroz-day-after-gaza-conflict-difficult-prospects-peace/103486236 Given the vast differences of trust and favour between Israelis and Palestinians, such concessions will be extremely difficult to achieve. Decades of mutual greivanves, tit for tat violence, daily rights violations of Palestinians and intergenerational trauma have eroded whatever good will may have existed once for the " other side ". And while learning about tragedies of others can support healing and reconciliation processes, turning victomhood into a competition has produced polarisation and distrust. " " The world has largely moved on from the 7 October attacks, with many people's memories obscured by the daily footage of the carnage in Gaza. More than 29,000 Palestinians have been killed so far. And many more are still under the rubble. However Israelis don't see on their screens what the rest of the world sees. Rather they continue to relive - through survivors stories and other testimonies - the horrors of 7 October. These kind of reports are rarely watched now by others. Gaza's destruction and the mass killings of civilians - many of them elderly, women and children - are reported by Israeli mainstream media very selectively, as " unfortunate " but inevitable collateral damage for which Hamas alone should be held accountable. While relentlessly thrashing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for their failures before, during and after 7 October, the Isreali media continue to shield the public from the images of unimaginable despair coming out of Gaza. " " The widely reported displays of glee in the hours after the brutal massacres or kidnappings of over 1400 Israelis - including women, children and elderly people - stunned Israeli society. In their worst nightmares Israelis could not make sense of the support for the Hamas attack, or the widespread denial that attrocities had occurred at all. That it took nearly two months of UN officials and prominent women's rights organisations to acknowledge the systematic rape that took place during the attack dismayed and enraged the entire country. Nowhere was this shock felt more acutely was within Israel's small and now battered peace camp. Some victims of 7 October had been for years active members of the peace movement. After years of campaignimg ant occupation activists felt suddenly betrayed by many progressives in the west who seemed uncaring or oblivious to their pain. In the days following the attack, the pages of the left leaning Haaretz were filled with expression of this anger and raw emotion. By magnifying old festering feelings of isolation and victimisation within Jewish society, the callous or insensitive relations to the 7 October attack ended up inflicting damage on the Palestinian cause as well. As emotions in Israel continue to run high, more and more people have been adopting the view that if the world hates us so much - evoking the days of the holocaust - we will have to forever live by the sword. Inadvertently fanning the victimisation narrative, the global outrage of Gaza has Hardened Israels defiance as well. Why, many of them are asking didn't the same rage manifest itself over the bloody conflicts in Sudan, Yemen, Ethiopia or Myanmar ? Why is Israel being singled out ? These feelings - and the delusional thinking that Hamas could be destroyed and all hostages freed by force - have overwhelmed all other considerations for the Israelis. For years public opinion in opinion in Israel had significant influence over government policies on the occupied territories. The shock of 7 October may have magnified the importance of these opinions by many people's long held positions on the Palestinian " problem". This has been more likely the case on the political left and in the centre, where many people have lost a sense of security and hope. The arguably more logical lesson of the attack - that peace and security for Israel are inextricably linked to the self determination of the Palestinian people - has failed to gain many new adherents, at least for now. As a result the death toll I'm Gaza has so far had little impact on the Isreali Jewish public. The only thing animating some calls for a ceasefire deal now is the ongoing risk to the hostages and the sense of national responsibility for their fate. For much of the world the never ending violations of the Palestinians' rights by Jewish settlers, the Isreali state and Israeli security forces have legitmised the struggle for a free Palestine many times over. This accumulation of past wrongs - together with the brutality of Israels military operation - have succeeded in placing the Palestinian agenda at the forefront of global attention and keeping it there for months. However anger at injustices should not lead to support - or even acquiescence - for the killing of civilians by either side. No amount of violence will bring a resolution to this highly asymmetric conflict. Isreal has for decades tried to impose its own solutions on the Palestinians through force and failed. Why would the same means work now in the other direction. The path to a Palestinian state must provide, among other things, a sense of security for the Isrealis. Not because this objective is more important than others, but because without it, there will be no end to the horrors of occupation. In the days and months to come, international leaders have two major tasks to achieve. In addition to bringing an end to the bloodshed in Gaza - to which the United states holds the key - they must strive to earn trust on both sides of the fence. Both Palestinians and Israelis should be able to have confidence in the process and the will of the mediators to keep their concerns and interests at heart in the difficult negotiations over inevitably painful and risky solutions. Since the events of 7 October have set the prospects for grass roots peace building back years, solutions imposed from the top down will be necessary to chart a feasible path forward. Hate comes easily in the face of injustices as does empathy for the suffering of one's own side. It's much harder to empathize with the misfortune of others who may, or may not, have brought their misery upon themselves. Selective denunciation of attrocities based on ones support or rejection of a cause - any cause - is not only morally flawed but counter productive as well. Resistance to any of all attrocities should be proactive, decisive and resolute. Those who have been severely aggreived may struggle to apply the same yardstick to others, but the rest of us could and should. We can do better. " An Israeli voice who has experience in counter terrorism, conflict resolution amongst other things.

Road to Recovery Israelis volunteers helping sick Palestinians by driving them from the West Bank and Gaza to hospitals in Israel https://thewire.in/health/israel-palestine-health " " Indifference drives me mad " said Arnon Rothbart, 51, a lawyer in Tel Aviv and a fellow road to recovery volunteer. He wishes the Israeli public would give more thought to the living conditions of the Palestinians, they need more help when we met in his office. They can value the good will of Israelis to show compassion and empathy and they can spread it around them. " The founder of this organisation Yuval Roth " The 60 year old white haired Israeli is a semi retired maker of stilts for performance artists, a former of juggler who taught generations of Israeli jugglers and son to a holocaust survivor father. In 1993 he lost his brother Udi, who was kidnapped and shot by a Hamas unit on his way back from home from a reserves service in Gaza. Roths reaction was to join the Parents Circle - Family Forum a joint group of bereaved Israelis and Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza. They can share their pain and discuss ways to improve the situation. " " Some people have never met nice Israelis like our members. Some of them have just met soldiers and Shabak security service - only threatening Israelis. One mother came back from her first ride and couldn't believe it. These are Jews? The driver spoke arabic and bought sweets for the kids. I told her that there are many Jews some good and some are bad, it is the situation that has caused them to be bad. In a different situation we would have met and become friends. "