Ilunga

Again there's one big difference between those that support Israel, and those that support both Israel's and the Palestinians right to peacefully co - exist, with both peoples having a nation/state, the right of self determination, and to live in free and just societies. The supporters of Israel cannot even come out and state they, the Palestinians have the same rights as the Israelis. I can't even get Canadian citizens on a Canadian discussion board who agree with their government in regards to Hamas being a terrorist organisation, to agree with their government when it states the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are ilegal under international law. There are a couple of terms for this, I will use the most polite one, double standards.

As for Israel, it's my auto correct that seems to be " correctting" my spelling. I apologise on its and my behalf. Brother you brought up the fact that the Palestinians don't respect holy sites, the fact of the matter is that Israel, (had to correct my auto correct) is actually destroying holy sites. Whatever the reason for this, the historical nature of these structures can never be replaced. TBH with you, as far as I am concerned these " holy sites" in the " holy land " have caused more pain, death and trouble over the centuries, than what their historical significance is worth. And here you go, just like that Reuters article stated, you are illustrating one of the main impediments to a peaceful solution to this conflict " The fate of Jerusalem as deemed by Israel as its " eternal and indivisible " capital was the main obstacle " To a peaceful resolution to this conflict. So we are now making decisions in the 21st century based on fictional books that were written thousands of years ago ? Many of the things claimed in them have no archeological or historical evidence to back them up ? The fact of the matter is that there were Palestinians living in Jerusalem and it is not unreasonable of them to want part of it as a capital of a potential nation/state. Or so the majority of the international community believes. More words from that " heeb " I admire " It's funny how some fables became historic When the authors clearly wrote them to be metaphoric But people will believe anything that is written Especially in stone or ancient scroll " Edit I missed replying to your first paragraph. Simple logic and reason. The Palestinians are fighting for a nation state of their own. As I have pointed out, if they were allowed to have one, why would they continue to fight for something they would then have ? Does this not sound logical and reasonable to you ?

And for those that want to argue that Isreal, Gaza and the the occupied territories belongs to those who first inhabited that place including Jerusalem, which is a remarkably similar term to the Canaanite tribe, the Jebusites. It actually belongs to modern day Lebanese people who are the direct genetic descendants of the Canaanites. https://www.sci.news/archaeology/lebanese-direct-descendants-biblical-canaanites-05078.html https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/canaanite-bible-ancient-dna-lebanon-genetics-archaeology Me I don't believe that, as in the fact that Isreal Gaza and the occupied territories belongs to modern day Lebanese. Just like I don't believe that a " god " promised the Israelites that land. Just like there is no archeological or historical evidence for an exodus out of Egypt, or of the figure of Moses himself, outside of the first/old testament of the bible. https://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/nov/30/moses-man-versus-myth-ridley-scott

You are ignoring my statement that if the Palestinians were allowed to form their own state, they would stop fighting to do that. You know, because they would have a state. So you are coming up with an excuse to deprive Palestinians of the right to have east Jerusalem as their capital, based on their disrespect of holy places ? The last time I checked it was/is Isreal that is destroying " holy places " 72 Mosques and 2 churches in Gaza, which according to this BBC article is home to some of the oldest Mosques and churches in the world. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67983018 But somehow I am guessing you will find some justification for this. Like just admit the fact, that you like many Isrealis, want all of Jerusalem to belong to Israel. And this is one of the impediments to a peaceful solution to this conflict.

Sigh..... So whenever I post something I believe in, I am going on one of my never ending tirades ? The poster I was replying to suggested that it was the Palestinians themselves who are largely responsible for the the fact there has not been a two - state solution. This is simply not true. It is both sides as that article illustrates. Both sides mistrust each other. Both sides have committed violence. These are facts. As for violence that has been committed by both sides, you have totally ignored the death and casualty figure I posted. Just between 2008 - 2020, nearly 115,000 Palestinians were killed and injured in relation to just under 6,000 Israelis That Reuters article detailed factual information about the events described in that article. It is not just an opinion piece. The quotes I used from that article are factual information, go check them if you doubt this. They weren't opinions. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reuters/ Reuters fact check Factual reporting very high. The highest level according to that scale. Also the least biased. And just like you have posted videos of Palestinians that want all of the Israeli, Gaza and the occupied territories for themselves, I could post videos of Isrealis that want the same thing. In fact the current leader of Isreal has proudly bragged about the fact that he has blocked a two - state solution for decades. https://www.timesofisrael.com/pointing-to-hamass-little-state-netanyahu-touts-role-blocking-2-state-solution/ " Death to Arabs " https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/06/15/jerusalem-far-right-jewish-march-vpx.cnn More chants of " death to Arabs " May last year https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march I can post more if you want. As I have posted, Hamas modified their charter in 2017. What they want is what the international community wants, a Palestinian state, accepting the idea that it incorporates the territories occupied by Israel in the six day war of 1967. So again it's not just the the Palestinians who are the major impediments to peace, both sides contribute to this This was my original claim.

Well how can the Palestinians form a viable state when Isreal keeps taking land from them. And maybe, very probably, if they were allowed to form their own state they would stop fighting to form it, because it's has already been formed ? Especially the land on the west bank that is designated as Area C which contains the most fertile land and most valuable resources, that was supposed to be gradually transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction, but this not has happened. Tell me, in your words, how can they form a viable state ? And do you agree that east Jerusalem should be their capital ?

This is simply untrue. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-is-two-state-solution-israel-palestinian-conflict-2024-01-25/ " Obstacles have long impeded the two - state solution which envisages Israeli and Palestinian states along side each other. These include Jewish settlement in occupied land the Palestinians seek for a state, uncompromising positions on core issues including Jerusalem, violence and deep mistrust " Those last three issues are shared by both sides. The Palestinians want east Jerusalem as the capital of their state. The Isrealis want all of Jerusalem for themselves. There is deep mistrust on both sides And as for the violence, before this current phase of the conflict. The chart in this article illustrates the death and injury toll from 2008 - 2020 The closest I could find that corresponds with Hamas' " rule " in Gaza https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ As you can see, 5,600 Palestinians have died in that period. 250 Israelis died in that period. 115,000 Palestinians were injured. 5,600 Isrealis were injured. And that's not just a chart. Those figures represent real human beings, many of them women and children. My heart goes out to the families and loved ones of all those people, however my heart is obviously going out to nearly 115,000 more Palestinians. From the original Reuters article " The process was hit by rejection and violence on both sides " Hamas which opposed the process carried out suicide attacks, which killed scores of people. Rabin was assassinated by an Isreali Ultra - Nationalist that opposed his peace policies. The fate of Jerusalem, deemed by Israel as its " eternal and indivisible " capital was the main obstacle " HOW BIG ARE THE OBSTACLES The obstacles have grown with time. While Israel withdrew settlers and soldiers from Gaza in 2005, Jewish settlements expanded elsewhere. Palestinians say this undermines the prospect of a viable state. Hamas founding charter calls for Isreals destruction and it refuses to recognise Isreal. Hamas leaders at times have offered a long term truce in return for a viable Palestinian state on all territory occupied by Israel in 1967. Israel considers this a ruse. " I will remind you that Hamas changed their charter in 2017. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/01/hamas-new-charter-palestine-israel-1967-borders " The new document the Islamist movement is not seeking war with with the Jewish people - only with Zionism that drives the occupation of Palestine. The new document insists that Hamas is not a revolutionary force that seeks to intervene in other countries, a commitment that is likely to be welcomed by other states such as Egypt. " So what this all boils down to, is do you believe in international law, and do you believe that the Palestinians deserve to form a viable nation/state of their own.

I am asking you straight up Roman, do you believe the Palestinians are entitled to have a nation/state, of their own, the right to self determination, within the borders of the land that is currently known as Israel, Gaza and the occupied territories ?

Here is another fact Your government has also signed and ratified the Geneva convention. According to article 49 of the fourth Geneva convention the settlements in the west bank and are ilegal. Article 49 " The occupying power should not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territory it occupies " So I ask you, do you agree with your government when they state " We strongly condemn the violent acts committed by extremist settlers, which are terrorising Palestinian communities. We reiterate our position that the Isreali settlements in the occupied West Bank are ilegal under international law and remind Israel of its obligations under international law, in particular article 49 of Geneva convention IV " https://www.international.gc.ca/news-nouvelles/2023/2023-12-15-statement-west-bank-declaration-cisjordanie.aspx?lang=eng

Yes, many of the people who want justice and freedom for the Israeli people don't seem to want that for the Palestinians. I want freedom and justice for not just these two people's, but for all people we share this planet with. I haven't been able to get many of those posters to agree to the idea that the Palestinians are entitled to a nation/state of their own.

Earlier in the thread I posted a bunch of articles and videos of Isrealis and Palestinians working together for peace. The standing together movement which is the supposedly largest group Combatants for peace https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/06/former-fighters-israeli-palestinian-peace-contd-orig-vf.cnn Women wage peace (Isreali) Women of the sun (Palestinian) If you are interested, I can post more.

You seem to be ignoring all the evidence that Israel is not beating Hamas. That it's actions have, and will only draw more support for them. I have this great idea to end the conflict. That Isreal listens to the international community in regards to the ilegal settlements in the west bank and east Jerusalem, get the fuck out of those Occupied territories. Let the Palestinians form a nation/state of their own and allow them the right of self determination. You know, the things Isrealis have themselves and what the Palestinians have been both fighting and LOBBYING for, for decades. Sounds pretty reasonable and fair to me. Then they can build that better society.

Are you seriously suggesting that an area that my home city of Melbourne is 28 times bigger than, can be called a state ? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-24/how-big-is-the-gaza-strip/103001830 That you can build a functioning nation/state in an area that size ? Seriously ? Edit You didn't answer my question In regards to the Palestinians right to self determination ?

Nah, people just ignore facts that posted that don't fit their narrative. As I have already stated and no one bothered to refute, because they can't. Displace 700,000 people and kill tens of thousands more and you are called nation builders. Kill thousands of people and you are called terrorists. Go figure.

You know what it took for the Yanks to defeat the Japanese Bushido ethic of return home victorious or die in battle ? Drop two atomic bombs on them. Are you suggesting that we should take that fruitcakes Amichai Eliyahu's advice that Isreal should nuke Gaza ? And you are talking about 2 completely different scenarios. One people, the Japanese tried to conquer other people and take their land. The other people, the Palestinians are fighting for a land of their own. I can't remember if you have stated that Palestinians have the right to self determination and a nation/ state of their own. Do you believe in these things ?

I don't agree that any of this is justified either, it's simply a matter of fact. I have the exact quotation from a study that was commissioned by an American general who had a vast amount of experience in counter insurgency conflicts. 10 terrorists are recruited for every civilian killed.

You can kill people but you can't kill an ideology. And that's essentially what Hamas is, an ideology. " You can't kill your way to defeating an ideology " I have posted enough evidence to illustrate that Israel's actions are only attracting more people to that ideology. https://potomacinstitute.org/reports/39-books/117-new-release-it-s-the-ideology-how-to-defeat-islamist-terrorism-once-and-for-all-2 " Kill that ideology and we kill the terrorism it breeds. But we cannot kill ideas with bombs and bullets - we can only kill them with better ideas. "

This article details how mass bombings and the collective punishment of civilian populations have failed in the past. It usually strengthens the resolve of the people that are victims of these attacks. Including the people involved in the other current conflict we have a thread about on this board. https://insidestory.org.au/israels-failed-bombing-campaign-in-gaza/ Again another source that states the obvious " Worse, Israeli officials admit that the military campaign is killing twice as many civilians as Hamas fighters, Israel is certainly producing more terrorists than it is killing, since each dead civilian will have family and friends eager to join Hamas to exact revenge " " Indeed survey evidence shows the extent to which Israel's military operations are now producing more terrorists than they are killing. In a 14 November poll of Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza conducted by Arab world Research for Development, 76 percent of respondents said they viewed Hamas positively. Compare that with the 27 percent of respondents who told different pollsters in September that Hamas was " most deserving of representing the Palestinian people " How hard is this to understand ? Punishing the civilian population is not just simply wrong, it is not an effective way to fight a conflict.

@Taxi here is you referring to me stating " Are these the mental gymnastics you have created for yourself to ignore all the evidence that shows the Jews have history in Israel" Note the time stamp in this post, literally the day before you accused me those " mental gymnastics" here I am attributing a Jewish presence in Isreal that dates back to 957BC Here is me again the same day attributing a Jewish presence that dates back thousands of years ago. Here is me having the courage to admit I was wrong about something. If you want credibility you will have the courage to man up and admit you were wrong when you accused me of " Indulging in " mental gymnastics you have created for yourself to ignore all the evidence that shows the Jews have history in Isreal "

Yes Israel never stated they would stop breaking international law and keep stealing land from the Palestinians. This as most analysts agree is the biggest impediment to a peaceful resolution to this conflict. Yes while the Palestinians under Arafat did renounce violence, extremist elements did commit violence after provocative acts by the Israelis. Arafat did order the arrest of hundreds of islamic extremists. Here is a timeline of the events from a highly respected source of investagive journalism PBD Frontline https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/timeline-israeli-palestinian-peace-process-1993-oslo-accord/

You and everyone in this thread know exactly what I am talking about. You personally insulted me. A while back you accused me of indulging in " mental gymnastics", those were your exact words, in trying to prove that the Jews had no ties to Israel. Amongst other posts that I have posted that illustrate,the Jews have ties to Israel, I had previously posted that Solomon built the first temple in 957BC You don't even have the courage to admit you were wrong. And now you claim you don't even know what I am talking about ?

He, Gabor is actually stating the opposite of what you are claiming " I am not here to defend Hamas I am not here to defend Terrorism I am not here to defend fundamentalist Christian Jewish or Muslim " This is actually what he stated.

I have hunted the internet for anything that states, he, Arafat himself wanted this built, no matter it never was. If he was serious about building it, wouldn't he use the money he stole to build it, after all that article states the PA were looking for funds for the project. Bottom line was that Arafats " old palace " the one he actually used https://www.smh.com.au/world/exit-begins-in-the-house-that-arafat-built-20060128-gdmv1g.html " The compound is the closest thing the Palestinians have to a Presidential Palace, but it has all the charm of a car park on a bombsite "

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/israel-war-civilian-deaths-bombing-gaza-hamas-20231208.html " A study commissioned by general Stanley McChrystal estimated that ten terrorists were recruited for every civilian killed " He was referring to counter insurgency conflicts such as this. He has a great deal of experience in regards to these sorts of conflicts. He was in command of the Joint special operations command. Serving in Iraq and Afghanistan in similar circumstances to this conflict. Also your post touches upon what I state when I say this is a trauma driven conflict. th The Hezbollah fighter taking that reporter to the memorial sites for victims killed in an Israeli air attack.

Brother I try and never make it personal. It's just a discussion board. And not just here but in discussions in person. CFF is the only form of social media I participate in. I did once kinda break my rule of making it personal, I did apologise while doing so, however I think the other poster got upset and now won't speak to me. Personally, I have/ will not ever block anyone, or use a negative emoticon. I have been following this conflict for decades. I have a distant Family connection to the origins of this conflict. Doesn't matter how long, or how many posts you have made, we are all the same on this board. In saying this some people are better informed than others.