Ilunga

Even though this is a reply to @Canuck Surfer You seem to be referring to me " I think this is a blind spot for you, like when you were very clear that you are not living on stolen Aboriginal" ( they really hate being called this, it's first nations people )" land because you checked and no one lived on your spot before your folks got there. All of Australia is stolen land and you can do no wrong because you are a good person. " For starters we are talking nearly 300 years ago when we did not purport to live under a rules based order. Now under the current rules based order we,the Australian people have come a long way in giving first nations people land rights. We have formally recognised first nations and Torres straits islanders rights and interests, native title, over 50 percent of Australia's landmass. You do realise how much land that is right ? Isreal is 355 times smaller than Australia, it is one third the size of Tasmania. In regards to the land I live on, the land of the Wurundjeri people. In March the Victorian government and the Wurrung clans first nations corporation on behalf of the Dja Dja traditional owner group entered into a recognition and settlement agreement under the traditional owner settlement act of 2010 which recognises the Dja Dja wurrung as the traditional owners of this land. You get where I am going with this. We the Australian people have recognised our first nations people ownership of this land. There is so much land, more than enough for not just the current 25.6 million people but more. Don't get me wrong, as I have often stated on this Board we have a long way to go in regards to treating our first nations people fairly. Start a topic about it and I will be the first to champion their cause. As I have stated Israel and the land that Palestinians want to form their own state is is tiny compared to Australia. Israel has not only denied Palestinians the right to form their state, they continue to take land away from the Palestinians. How are the Palestinians meant to form a state of their own.

I passionately argue for what I consider justice, and I passionately argue against what I consider to be injustice. This is the basis of what I am. My golden rule, the basic dynamic of my life, Treat others the way I wish to be treated myself. To give you an insight into my personality, my " nickname " is intense dave. I have a lot of respect for @Optimist Prime I value his contributions, he has actually spent time in that region. I admire his knowledge of history, he has a great interest in it as do I. We are members of a fantasy league on this board. Though we don't always agree, above all, I try and focus on the things we share in common, not the things we don't agree on.

No you are correct there is no arpartheid in Isreal. It exists in the Occupied territories The international community states this. Many Isrealis themselves, including many Prominent ones state this. A quarter of the 7.6 million Jews who live in America state this. As Yossi Sarid a former Isreali cabinet minister stated " What acts like arpartheid, is run like arpartheid and harrasses like arpartheid is not a duck - it's arpartheid " I don't need all these people to tell me that the Palestinians live under some form of oppression, whatever label you want to place on it.

I am still waiting for you to admit you were wrong about me stating the Jews had no ties to the place that is now called Isreal Gaza and the occupied territories. Man up and admit you were wrong. This is one of the biggest reasons our species continues to make the same mistakes. Most people do not admit they were wrong/ made a mistake. Here's the renunciation of violence https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/09/09/Israel-recognizes-PLO-which-renounces-violence/4937747547200/ I claimed that Israel broke their side of the deal. Israeli - British historian Avi Shlaim agrees with me because it is a fact. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine " The fundamental reason was that Israel reneged on its side of the deal" " Particularly destructive of the peace project was the policy of expanding Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian territory. These settlements are ilegal under international law and constitute a huge obstacle to peace. Building civilian settlements beyond the green line does not violate the letter of the Oslo accords but it most decidedly violates its spirit. As a result of settler expansion the area available for a Palestinian state has been steadily shrinking to the point where a two - state solution is barely conceivable. " This is a point I have consistently made, how are the Palestinians meant to form a viable nation state when their land is continuously being taken from them. As for what Israel " agreed to " I don't agree to the fact that I won't keep stealing land from you is your justification for Israel taking land ? The a majority of the international community regard Jewish neighbourhoods, villages and farms located in area's captured by Israel from Jordan in 1967, including east Jerusalem as ilegal settlements. The reason for asserting illegality is the prohibition on transfer of civilians into occupied territories by an occupying power as set out in the fourth Geneva convention. This is in violation of article 49 of the court Geneva convention. Israel has been stealing land for over 50 years from the Palestinian people. And according to this Isreali source " This Is The Disturbing Reality Of Israeli Land Theft and Right - Wing Rule " " Methods that Israel and the settlers successfully used against the Palestinians are now undermining segments of Jewish Israeli society " https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-03-22/ty-article/.premium/this-is-the-disturbing-reality-of-israeli-land-theft-and-right-wing-rule/00000187-0432-dde5-ab8f-263ea83d0000

A further step down the spiral ? Why are people twisting my words to mean something I have never stated ? Quote me where I have stated anything is worth killing for. I have continually stated the opposite of that, that no cause is worth killing for. I have advocated using peaceful means to resolve not just this conflict, but all conflicts, and others including you have stated I am stupid,or wrong for doing this. You and others have actually stated that Isreal is justified in their actions, which have included killing 10,000 kids and thousands of women So for the billionth time NO CAUSE IS WORTH KILLING FOR. Because I defend the Palestinians right to a nation/state of their own. Their right to self determination I stepping down a spiral ? I stated Arafat was fighting for a just cause. A nation/ state for Palestinians. Their right to self determination. I did not state the means he/ the PLO, often used where justified, acts of the terrorism the PLO engaged in. Acts of terrorism are never justified. Man I have lost a bit of respect for this guy in relation to some of his statements in regards to Ukraine however some of his words seem pertinent now " All alone or in twos the ones who really love you Walk up and down outside the wall Some hand in hand, some gather together in bands The bleeding hearts and the artists make their stand And when they have given you their all, some stagger and fall AFTER ALL IT'S NOT EASY BANGIN YOUR HEART AGAINST SOME MAD BUGGERS WALL " And yes I am a bleeding heart, and I wear it on my sleeve. Fuckin happy to do so.

And what happens in between those 7 years ? As that video I posted about the ilegal Israeli settlements. Here it is again. This video was made in 2016, so 8 years ago. In the video it states there were 400,000 settlers in the west bank and now 8 years later there are early double that, 700,000. What happens every not only every 7 years but for the last 50 years is Israel keeps stealing more land. What would you do if you were a Palestinian, about this. This is linked to the people in Gaza. The Palestinians see themselves as one people. It's others that view them, Gazans and Palestinians who live in the west bank and Jerusalem as somehow different from one another. I will ask you this, how would you view this conflict if you were born and lived all your life in Gaza ? Since Israel has left Gaza, normal Palestinians live in poverty and despair. I have noted that some posters have call on Gazans to rise up and overthrow Hamas. Would you sacrifice your family to do this ? As I have stated, I certainly wouldn't. My son is the most precious thing. Also what's the logical train of thought for a Palestinians in regards to who oppresses them ? International and Isrealis human rights organisations state that Israel practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people. Many Isrealis themselves state this. Many across the world state this. Why do you think so many people rally for the Palestinian cause around the world ? I CONDEMN HAMAS The question I will ask you is, do you condemn arpartheid ?

Where have I said Ben Gurion is a POS ? I haven't. And where have I even insinuated Arafat is a martyr ? I haven't And neither did that article or the articles I will know post. This is a word you have used. And why are you bringing my athletic talent into this discussion ? It's just a discussion brother. As for Arafat living a Spartan lifestyle https://www.chicagotribune.com/2004/11/11/yasser-arafat-5/ https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-yasser-arafat-20041111-story.html https://www.boloji.com/articles/11430/life-and-times-of-arafat-mission-incomplete Israeli labour leader Shimon Peres said after his death " The Palestinians see in Yasser Arafat the father of their nation. Like a father he did much for his children. But he was also over protective of them. He did more than any other leader to forge a unique and seperate Palestinian identity. He was the voice and symbol of the Palestinian cause. His tireless efforts bright the Palestinian cause to the forefront of the international agenda and kept it there for decades. " This from a man who was both a Prime Minister and President of Israel. The Times of London. A highly reputable source. While the article is behind a pay wall before you click on the link it states " He lived a Spartan life by choice, he wore the same thing everyday, ate the same thing everyday. He liked his honey, put hot tea on his.... " Google search Arafats lifestyle, nearly every article mentions the word Spartan lifestyle. This is so well known to people like myself who have been following this conflict for decades. I have never called him perfect, I have actually called him a terrorist, just like Menachem Begin Ex PM of Israel who was the leader of the terror group the Irgun. And Yitzhak Shamir another ex PM of Isreal that was the leader of the terror group the Lehi. Again where have I stated that the Palestinians don't contribute to this never ending conflict. I actually state it's a circle of hatred that both sides contribute to. That this is a trauma driven conflict, in the sense that the pain of previous events is passed down through the generations on both sides.

Why do you twist what I have stated ? I never claimed he was martyr. Another huge difference between him and PO11035809 is that to a certain degree he actually cared about the Palestinian people. As we know PO1135809 only cares about himself. And yes he was fighting for a just cause. Unless you don't believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, a just cause ?

While you don't want to address the fact that the information I provided totally discredited the Washington Post's claim that it was Arafat that " killed Oslo " It was the actions of both sides that killed that deal. I will address the fact that Arafat wasn't in Trump's league when it comes to being a grifter https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-investigations/trump-reported-making-more-than-1-6-billion-while-president/ And he is still at it https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2022/09/trumps-political-operation-raised-over-500-million-after-2020-election-despite-increased-scrutiny/ Then there's the " kids " https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-investigations/jared-and-ivanka-made-up-to-640-million-in-the-white-house/ And there is no end in sight. And you know the big difference between Arafat and Trump https://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/11/world/middleeast/mystery-lingers-whereabouts-of-his-hidden-fortune.html " Arafat lived a Spartan lifestyle, spent very little money on himself, living like a soldier with a narrow bed and a few uniforms in his closet. " As the rest of the article states he was a corrupt fuck, secret contributions, the black market and extortions, however he is a lot different than that corrupt POS PO1135809.

I am not hitching my trailer to anything. I was stating facts. Facts from highly respected independent sources. Historical facts that can be easily verified. That prove that " opinion" piece in the Washington Post that claimed " Arafat killed Oslo" was a crock of shit. Both sides contributed to the breakdown of the Oslo accords. Edit. Arafat while a corrupt dude is not in the same league with Trump and Putin in regards to being the largest thief on the planet in our Lifetime. https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/how-russian-president-vladimir-putin-secretly-became-the-worlds-richest-person/news-story/302a422aca6502c7346cc26435ab2e75 " I do think that Putin is significantly richer than me Musk sensationally claimed " " But his claim that the Russian President Vladimir Putin is really the richest person in the world is one that's been repeated at the highest levels for several years now. "

For starters you are bringing up a time when we, the civilised world, didn't live in what we supposedly do now, a rules based order. You know the rules based order that our societies purport to ascribe to. I have already posted the " West's " hypocrisy in regards to that and the conflict we are discussing in this thread. https://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/01/will-war-gaza-become-breaking-point-rules-based-international-order As for America giving any land back to Mexico, PO1135809 and many top republicans want to invade Mexico https://www.vox.com/politics/2023/4/21/23686510/mexico-invade-bomb-trump-republicans-cartels I don't believe that anything will stop more Isrealis settling in the west bank and east Jerusalem. Nothing has stopped them for the last 50 years.

So a Washington Post " opinion " piece. Got some actual facts to back that up ? I have " the encyclopaedia " Britianica a very well respected source that only deals with facts. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Oslo-Accords Another very respected source in regards to investigative Journalism PBS Frontline https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/timeline-israeli-palestinian-peace-process-1993-oslo-accord/ Feb to March 1996 " Several weeks after Israel assassinates Hamas' chief bomb maker Hamas retaliates. Three suicide attacks in eight days leave 46 dead and hundreds wounded. Then, on March the 4th, a fourth suicide bomber himself, this time in a Tel Aviv mall. 13 people are killed and 157 more wounded. The dead are all under seventeen years old. Arafat orders his security forces to move against the Islamist militants and hundreds are arrested " September 24 1996 " In an area that is extremely sensitive to Muslims and Jews - where the Al Aqsa mosque sits on the temple mount above the western wall - Netanyahu changes the status quo and opens an ancient tunnel that runs along the wall. Netanyahu's security advisers had warned him against opening the tunnel fearing that the move was too provocative. " Palestinian radicals are quick to exploit the situation and organise demonstrations. The Israeli army fires upon the demonstrators and for the first time since the Oslo accords were signed, the Palestinian police force use their guns against the Israeli army. Netanyahu gives the order to move Israel's tanks into striking positions. The violence leaves 59 Palestinians and 16 Israelis dead. Hundreds more are wounded on both sides before Palestinian and Israeli security forces co-operate to bring the fighting to an end. " Those comments in regards to Jerusalem in that article March 18 1997 " Three weeks after Netanyahu gives the green light, constructions begin on a settlement on a contested hill near Jerusalem. Although Jewish settlements were not mentioned specifically in the Oslo accords, Rabin had promised that no additional ones would be built. Tensions are high. " March through September there are a number of suicide attacks Hundreds are wounded ,the article states 21 are killed. September 14 1997 " Netanyahu allows settlers to occupy houses within arab sections of Jerusalem once again changing the status quo. Palestinians demonstrating against settlers are joined by groups of Israelis who are opposed to Netanyahu's policies. " Parts of the article and the rest of that article after that deal with BS, violence and disagreements on both sides however it refutes that Washington Post opinion piece that it was Arafat that was to blame for the breakdown in the peace process. Both sides screwed the pooch. Kill and injure thousands of people over decades and you are called terrorists. Displace 700,000 people , and then go on to kill and injure thousandsof people and take their land, you are called nation builders.

Sigh.... The Palestinians under Arafat tried to hold to account some of the extremists that broke their side of the deal. The Isrealis kept taking land, they have been since 1967 in the then occupied territories and in the west bank and east Jerusalem since. I have already posted the evidence of this. You do know that the international community has condemned the Isreali illegal settlements in the west bank since 1967, calling them the biggest impediment to peace. This video about the illegal Israeli settlements is 7 years old, the figure of 400,000 settlers has almost doubled since then to 700,000 " This is a really nice place to live, that's why we came"( stole others people land)" here." I reckon BC is pretty nice place to live, maybe I should grab a bunch of like minded mates and go settle there. As I keep stating, stop taking land and give it back, let Palestinians have what Israel has , a nation/ state, and there is a good chance those rockets and attacks will stop.

Yep count me in..

I didn't when you came out and assured me.

The scummiest of scum teams ! I trusted all of those friends ! BJ you got one back brother.....

Yes, sorry brother, one way or another, this game will go down in CDC/CFF Lore... Thanks for the host and the effort you put in.

No worries my friend I just want to know who was the scum team I am actually laughing with you, not at you.

No worries brother. I am glad my trust I you was validated.

Is the game over ? Why didn't falc die ? And if the game is over who was fuckin what ?

I don't even know ? WHAT THE FUCK !

Another game where the town lacks focus. That made me happy when I was scum those last few games. However as town, this frustrates me.

Good point. And he posted with out voting.

Scum usually likes to take him out early if he is town.

Falc hasn't even voted this round Not much input. Don't feel like this is his town game VOTE Falc