Ilunga

For starters I was only talking about kids, not other victims. And that outrage math comment ? As I have stated so many times, I am not outraged I was/am heart broken by the events of October 7. And I am heartbroken by the events since. And again as I have stated so many times, my thoughts are with the families of the victims on both sides of this conflict. Not just this particular phase, but for the last 80- 100 years.

Brother, I thought you of all people would know your history, and also believe the actual Isreali cabinet documents. If you want to call the massacre at Dier Yassin and other massacres in Arab villages that contained only unarmed civilians, pre emptive strikes on legitimate military targets, I don't really know what to say to you. I posted the thoughts of Isreal cabinet members, they were horrified, appalled at the actions of Isreali soldiers in 1948 Here you go again https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-12-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/classified-docs-reveal-deir-yassin-massacre-wasnt-the-only-one-perpetrated-by-isra/0000017f-e496-d7b2-a77f-e79772340000 Did you read the thoughts of the cabinet members ? Those weren't legitimate military targets, they were just arab villagers. For about the umpteenth time I have condemned Hamas before and after these attacks for violence. I have also defended Isreals right to defend itself against attack, telling Roman I admired their pre-emptive strike on the Egyptian Airforce, stating it probably saved lives in the long run. The difference between me and you is you hold the Isrealis to a different account. You find reasons to justify actions they have committed in the past, actions that today would be considered acts of terrorism. You also stated that when tribes choose peace they are eliminated by those who use violence. Well the Palestinians did renounce violence and tried to enforce that but Israel broke their part of the bargain and kept taking land. How are the Palestinian meant to form a state ? We both know that is now probably never going to happen. And the way you were kinda talking, ho humming about giving back land. Like how are they meant to form a viable state/ nation/ society ? That the big difference in this thread. The people who support only the Isrealis find ways to justify the violence they commit. Me I condemn the violence used by anyone, anywhere, FULL STOP. So with the current figures 9,000 murderous scum have been killed and so have 10,000 kids in three months ? You call that humane ? Thats fucked up in my books. Sigh......we will never stop fighting stupid wars, and killing each other for stupid reasons. Because people will always find reasons to justify the killing of women and children.

Yes, that's what so many people around the world are asking, is the response proportionate. 10,000 kids killed in 3 months? How can anyone justify that ?

80 years ago the defacto government of Israel attacked the Arabs/ Palestinians, committing massacres and other attrocities that would be considered acts of terrorism today. By your own words, people who murder in the name of their cause have gone to the dark side. What about the settlers murdering in the name of their cause ? That's happening right now, last few months. It seems that only one side is being held to account. This is all just history repeating itself, the protagonists of each side murdering in the name of their cause.

This is a thread about the about Israel, the Occupied territories and Gaza. You jumped into the middle of a conversation I was having with another person in regards to a comment he made. So going by your logic, if the actions of Israel, massacres/attrocities committed back in 1948 are justified, then surely by the same logic you are using, the actions of Hamas are justified ?

I am thinking of marketing it as a very smelly cheese, like Camembert, Limburger or Ami Du Chambertin.

I think, knowing me that kinda goes without saying. After over 300 pages of promoting a peaceful resolution that involves both sides ? I suggest you read the article in the post above into what Israelis actions where in regards to the actual forming of the state of Israel and what the current leaders in their government think about those actions. Also research the actions of the Irgun, the Stern gang and the Lehi. All this is in relation to @Optimist Prime comment " I honestly feel that if a person or group decides their cause is worth murdering for, they are on the darkside " And brother in today's world their acts would be considered terrorism.

The bombing of the king David Hotel is the least of the Israeli attrocities/massacres. I was replying to @Optimist Prime comment " I honestly feel that if a person or group decides their cause is worth murdering for, they are on the darkside " "CLASSIFIED DOCS REVEAL MASSACRES IN '48 AND WHAT ISRAELI LEADERS KNEW " https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-12-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/classified-docs-reveal-deir-yassin-massacre-wasnt-the-only-one-perpetrated-by-isra/0000017f-e496-d7b2-a77f-e79772340000 " Testimonies continue to pile up, documents are revealed, and gradually a broader picture begins to emerge of murder committed by Israeli troops during the war of independence. Minutes recorded in cabinet meetings in 1948 leave no room for doubt, Israel's leaders knew in real time about the blood drenched events that accompanied the conquest of the Arab villages " " Cabinet minister Haim-Moshe Shapira said that all of Israel's moral foundations had been undermined. Minister David Remez remarked that the deeds that had been done remove us from the category of Jews and from the category of human beings altogether. Other ministers were also appalled. " Israeli source, Isreali government members, commenting on that Israeli information. This is a thread about Israel, the Occupied territories and Gaza. When you take into context @Optimist Prime comment into my original reply what conclusion do you come to ? I am only singling out Israel ? I have condemned Hamas's use of violence both before and after this attack. I have also stated A Terrorist is a Terrorist is a Terrorist. They should be all held to account. I guess why that euphemism, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, is used when people are biased. Also in regards to holding Isreal to account about murdering people for their cause, don't you remember my post about invasion day/ Australia Day here in Aus and why it should be changed ? Because it offends our indigenous people in relation to massacres committed around that time. As I have stated many times, no fear or favour for anyone.

And he did it all on rooted knees. As Barclay Plager, a St.Louis " enforcer " who actually injured his knee with a hit stated " even on one leg, Bobby Orr is the best thing out there "

I only had a secondary education, I blew my chance at a tertiary education. That was all on me, the bad decisions I made. What really rubs salt into that wound is I, like everyone else at that time, was entitled to a free University education. This ended in 1989.

Totally brother, I didn't get to that first figure as fast as you did, but got way slower after that. Not making excuses however I have already mentioned on this board the cognitive issues I have in relation to all the concussions I have experienced.

I have a lot of respect, not just for you, but your experience in the matters we are discussing. You have a great volume of experience in regards to this topic. What do you think about the trauma angle in relation to this conflict, not just current trauma, but decades of inborn trauma, on both sides. Also what do you think about the non state solution ? And the example of this is Northern Syria ? I know you have agreed with me in regards to a global identity for humanity. I was just about to post this quote by I man I admire greatly, partly because he advocated non violence as a way to achieve justice. " In spite of temporary victories, violence never brings permanent peace " And there is this one " Non violence is a powerful and just weapon. Indeed it is a weapon unique in history, which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it " Martin Luther King Edit The people who formed the state of Isreal thought that murdering people in the name of their cause was acceptable.

A belated happy birthday brother. Only a couple of days difference. We are both Aquarians, and by those who follow that stuff, I am told I am a typical Aquarian. It cracks me up that I will be getting my seniors card in a couple of days.

I just tried it and it took me a while. I kept losing track adding up the different figures, 7 times 4000, 7 times 700 etc, then adding all those figures together. Same with the division. I did eventually get there. I admit I checked my figure with a calculator to be sure I was right. We didn't have calculators at school until form 6, last year of high school. We had to learn to to add up with our minds. My father who was a aircraft design engineer taught me to use a slide rule in primary school however I never used it at school. At the Mt.Hotham darts competition, they called me the human calculator, as each dart went in I would add up the scores instantly, doubles, triples, as the third dart went in I usually announced the score. I loved math at school. A mathematician believes that proving something mathematically makes that statement true. It also provides an explanation/ understanding as to why you came to that conclusion. I forgot most of my higher math decades ago.

Thank you brother. You are an awesome player.

Thanks for giving it a red-hot go my friend.

Always a pleasure for you my friend.

Thank you my friend for giving it your all.

It probably didn't. I edited the post. My head is all over the place, personal life. Yesterday Arvo, night and today is the first time in a long time I have had a smile on my face for hours, yesterday arvo-night was such a good time. Being with a long time very close friend, watching hockey in person, then going to my fave bands last performance ever in Aus. I am still on a high.

I know people think I am stupid for promoting non violence, and peaceful means to resolve human conflict, this saddens me, not in relation to my myself, but what it states about the human condition. I could quote many things from this article, don't get me wrong the author is not perfect either, however he presents powerful ideas about peaceful coexistence. https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/nonviolent-solution-israel-palestine-conflict One quote that stands out to me Sami Awad says " I chose. I chose to stand against your hate and not hate you, to resist your persecution and not demean you, to overcome your oppression and not suppress you, to respond to your violence with non violence. I chose to speak loud and clear for freedom and life and not insult you. I chose love to be my motivation. " What he discusses in this article about trauma both past and present is very relevant to this never ending conflict. I am talking about trauma that both Isrealis and Palestinians feel, the more I think about this idea, the more I believe this is a trauma driven conflict. From the article " To me, it seems that an often missing link lies in, how social, political, and economic systems chanel the energy of trauma into oppressing entire groups of people and how they perpetuate trauma at a massive scale through systemic violence. For example they implant beliefs into peoples minds that make the oppression of or violence against other groups seem rational, by portraying the oppression of " them " as a condition of safety for " us ". " Think about this idea in relation to both Hamas and Israeli leaders. I have often thought about trauma in its various forms, I have lived all my life suffering from anxiety and it was only later in life that I learnt that a mother could pass on anxiety to their child in the womb. Then later learning about my biological mothers situation, and how stressed out she would have been. This article is worth reading just in regards to the discussion on trauma IMO. " I have no doubt that Hamas would actually throw Jews into the sea and violently overthrow Israel if they could. But that's the point, they can't. They're facing one of the worlds best-equipped and most efficient armies backed by the most powerful nations on the planet. However atrocious a massacre, October 7 didn't pose an existential danger to the state of Israel. But Israel's reaction to Gazans is doing exactly what they fear Hamas is doing to them. Such are the workings of trauma. " @Optimist Prime From the article " I believe that as long as our political " solutions " operate within the political framework of ethnocentric nation-states that necessarily impose a brutal " either- or " logic, violent competition will seem to be inevitable. Instead of a one-state or two-state solution, could we imagine a no state solution ? A plurinational confederation for the people's of Israel-Palestine ? You might think this is simply too far out. But Hannah Arendt widely considered the most important political philosopher of the 20th century, floated this idea already in the 1940's. You might be even more surprised to learn that what I am describing is a lived reality already in one of the regions most difficult corners, in North East Syria. In a area known as Rojava making up roughly a quarter of Syria, several million people are experimenting to build a society beyond the system of a nation-state, capitalism, and patriarchy, and are operating on the principles of grassroots democracy, feminism, multi-ethnic peaceful coexistence, restorative justice and regenerative agriculture. If this works in Syria, why shouldn't it also work in Israel-Palestine. " Finally the article states " You might insist that this is impossible but the strategists of war and oppression wouldn't think that way, they never let a crisis go to waste. As the chief theorist of neoliberalism, Milton Friedman famously said, " when a crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That I believe is our basic function, to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes the politically inevitable". What if we applied the same thinking to collective liberation ? " I have never done this before, I plead with people to read this article. As I have stated, it, like any human thoughts, are not perfect, however if you believe in living in free and just societies, where we treat each other with dignity, respect and compassion, it certainly provides some insight into how we might just have a way to do this. And remember this, I hate quoting Stalin but he was on point when he stated Ideas are more powerful than guns. We don't let our enemies have guns, so why, do we let them have ideas ? Ideas are the most powerful " weapons " we can wield. The question is what ideas do we " wield "

And to finish our tribute to , white trash, two heebs and a bean, I will finish with their Opus that is more pertinent today than when they wrote it a quarter of a century ago, And very pertinent to this conflict " And so we go On with our lives We know the truth But prefer lies Lies are simple Simple is bliss Why go against tradition when we can Admit defeat Live in decline Be the victim of our own design The status quo Built on suspect Why should anyone stick out their necks Fellow members Of we've got ours I'd like to introduce you to our host He's got his and I've got mine We got decline " So long and thanks for all the shoes guys........

" I don't believe in God, I believe in Goddess I don't believe in prayer but believe in worship I don't believe in destiny, but I can feel luck I don't believe in people cause they don't give a fuck I kinda like hypotheses, I kinda dig laws I LIKE DEFENDING CAUSES AND UNDERDOGS I like theories of evolution and design I don't believe in anything except for decline I don't believe in infinity, I think there's an end I don't want an afterlife, I wanna transcend I am going to do everything I want to right here I want a life peculiar, and I want it severe "

I thought I would reply to both these posts. They demonstrate, IMO, that you are one of, if not the most balanced poster in this thread. I admit I get hung up on what I and many others believe is the injustice visited upon the Palestinian people. The point I wanted to address was in relation to your comments about the Palestinian kids. While I fully believe kids, and that's what teenagers are, impressionable kid's, have to be held accountable for their actions, how do we deal with this, punish them or educate them ? In regards to the Palestinian kids put yourself in their position, they live in poverty without much hope for their future. What's the obvious answer, give them some hope for their future. I am very certain that locking them up is not going to help me overcome their beliefs that are still only forming, have not become full blown ideologies at that age. Same as when you lock up kids with hardened criminals, it's like an education for them. In regards to their indoctrination, went into Festival hall last night and saw NOFX for the very last time, they were so good, backed up by the Clowns who were also fuckin awesome. Also skated and watched some junior girls hockey, they were awesome, throwing hits, crisp passes, quality hockey. Anyway they played their song 72 hooker's /virgin's. Mike wrote this song after watching Pierre Rehov's doco Suicide Killers, I highly recommend watching this movie. One of the many stories that are told is about a couple of teenage kids whose bombs failed to go off. When the authorities were questioning them about their motives, they stated they didn't know much about politics, their Imam had promised them 72 virgin's if they " matryed " themselves. That to me is a form of evil/ child abuse right there. " When everybody's getting blow jobs That's when we'll finally have world peace "

One of those people you are calling " idiots" in Super19 post is Josh Paul. Josh worked for the state department, he was the director of congressional and public affairs for the the state departments bureau of Military Affairs. He was basically an arms dealer, for the US government, which is not a very cool job, he actually states this, talking about the moral complexities he faced and why he stayed in the job, stating he would do so while he considered he was doing more good than harm. I have already brought up Josh in this thread, he quit his job because in his own words " Hamas's attack on Israel was a monstrosity of monstrosities But I believe to the core of my soul, that the response Israel is taking and with it the American support for that response and for the status quo of the occupation, will only lead to more and deeper suffering for both the Israeli and Palestinian people " Note that he expresses empathy for both Israelis and Palestinians. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/19/state-department-official-josh-paul-quits-weapons-israel I can confidently state to the point he quit his job he was far more informed about the situation in Israel the Occupied territories and Gaza than any poster on this forum.

It wasn't the Nazis, it was the reference to the death camps. Like mate they are one of, if not the worst things our species has ever done. I have repeated this many times, find one post where I have claimed Isreal has committed genocide against the Palestinians. I was one of the first with @Elias Pettersson to defend them from that charge. Since then I have been silent on the matter. I am not happy with continually being accused of something that not only I did not do, but at one time was actually doing the opposite of what you, and other have accused me of. The state of Isreal was built on the back of terrorist acts, committed by terror groups such as the Irgun, the Stern gang and the Lehi. Leaders of those organisations went on to become Prime Ministers of Isreal and hold other positions of power. I have posted the relevant information, even Isreali cabinet documents that state the crimes against humanity they committed, and the reaction of cabinet members some of which were really damning of the character of their, the Jewish people. So when the Isrealis commit acts of terror to form their state, no foul, but when the Palestinians do, they are called to account ? They both should be called to account IMO. A Terrorist is a Terrorist is a Terrorist. I have no more ignored any of what you have stated than you have when you have replied to posts of mine, example I, ( you) am claiming BS in regards to that American generals study about how many terrorist recruited for every civilian killed. You stated we would be over run with terrorists. As I stated are there any terrorists in Canada, Australia, GB, Europe etc and are civilians being killed in relation to responses to those terror groups actions, civilians killed. I haven't seen you once condemn the settlers acts of violence upon Palestinians after, let alone before the October 7th attack https://www.dfat.gov.au/news/media-release/joint-statement-settler-violence-west-bank " Since the start of October, the settlers have committed more than 343 violent attacks, killing 8 Palestinian civilians, injuring more than 83, and forcing 1026 Palestinians from their homes " For the record I support Ukraine to, I have actually donated money to humanitarian institutions that are working within their borders, UNICEF and MSF. Any way on a personal human level, I wish you and your family the best. Hope you are having a good one mate.