Ilunga

The Battle for the soul of Dicksville has come down to a final stand for both sides. The Dicksvillians in there desperation ass salted @Lewitelli the overdose of sodium resulting in seizures followed by an exrcuciating death. Meanwhile the Dickcheeses were overjoyed with this result they, did not act. @Lewitelli Was William " ricotta " Hershel A Dicksvillian @SnakeDoctor Is David " cheddar " Mason A Dicksvillian @Sharpshooter Is Bugsy " Bluevein " Lansky A Dickcheese gang member The Dickcheese gang control the vote therefore they have won the battle for the soul of Dicksville

Votes Lewitelli - 2 votes SS - SD SS - 1 vote Lewitelli @Lewitelli You have been strung up You may have last words

I hope that Hamas surrenders to. We both know they don't give a rats arse about the Palestinian people. You're a good person Alf, doesn't it break your heart seeing some of the footage coming out of Gaza ? When I see I dead child in the arms of their parents I cannot help but visualise that is me with Lachlan. I don't watch much news however I feel that I should bear witness to these events.

@Yoshiyoshi and anyone else who is interested There are two translations of my username. When used as a Christian name, it is a derivative of the verb Kulunga, which means to Unite, unify, gather or put together. When used as word in Bantu, it translates to A person who is willing to forgive abuse the first time, tolerate it the second time, but never a third time. Linguists have interpreted this as the complexity of tolerance, it's many layers. I am sorry if I have offended you. I was given the nickname " intense " dave. I passionately argue about what I believe is injustice wherever that maybe. Why do you believe that so many people around the world believe the way I do about the not just this particular phase of the conflict, but how the Palestinians have been treated for decades ?

You don't understand how someone can find that offensive ? Using the Nazi death camps as any form of an analogy is fucked up ? Especially in relation to anything that has to do with Israel/ the Jews ? Please I would like to know, what I, in your opinion is anything that I have stated is fucked up. I am always open to criticism. I don't give up on a discussion just because someone states something I find offensive, I try and find common ground. Also you haven't answered my question Have you ever been involved in very violent situations ? This does have relevance to our discussion, as I have stated, I have. I learnt the hard way, violence doesn't solve problems, it only makes them worse.

We have seen how in previous responses to terror attacks Israel has been far more surgical in their response. They took out one of their most feared adversaries Qasam Soleimani in a drone strike in Iran I 2020. They did the same again last year Sayyed Razi Mousavi. While there are far more targets this time around even Joe Biden, the president of Isreal best buddy has called Isreals airstrikes/ bombing indiscriminate. Indiscriminate " Done at random or without careful judgement" Most of the civilised world has called on Isreal to be restrained in their response. If you call this response restrained with the figures I have provided, there will be no changing your mind. As for the Nazi death camps statement WTF dude ? To use this in any form, let alone connected to Isreal is fucked up.

The state of Palestine was recognised by the UNas an observer state in November 2012. As of June last year 139 member states recognise the state of Palestine, 165 recognise the state of Israel. For full disclosure both our country's don't recognise the state of Palestine, they want Isreal and the PA to negotiate a two state solution. For starters I apologise for understating the figure of Isrealis killed on October 7. There is some confusion about the number actually killed by Hamas https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths This article , Israeli security data claims 1,139 Then there are Israeli eyewitness claims that the IDF , tanks killed their own citizens. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/another-israeli-witness-confirms-israeli-tanks-killed-own-citizens-on-oct-7/3079514 Also Israel has admitted to firing upon and killing attendee's at the music festival https://thecradle.co/articles-id/13111 The rest is basically a long winded justification for unjust actions. By any civilised, humane standard, this is a disproportionate response. So you have a family right, few kids, living in poverty, you are going to challenge what many claim in this thread are well armed fanatics and have your family killed in front of you ? I will be totally honest, I wouldn't. The most precious thing is my son, I would do anything to protect him, including sacrificing my life to save his. " But when you see the end don't justify the means It's just that 180 degrees The great thing about being a human Is our ability to reason But reason it don't work when no one cares Two parts apathy, one part despair " Mike Burkett I guess the difference between us is you see violence as the way to solve this never ending conflict, remembering that this current phase is only part of a 80 year history of conflict. I see working together to find what each people have in common as the answer to this conflict. Just out of curiosity have you ever been in violent situations ? I have been in very violent situations when I was younger, I was even shot. I can tell you first hand that violence doesn't change peoples attitudes, it only makes problems worse. I had to learn this the hard way. I also had to learn to forgive the person who shot me, it wasn't so much being shot, it was the betrayal factor, to move on with my life and find happiness.

There is what civilised, humane people call a proportionate response in relation to Israel's response to the October 7th attack. What also has to be taken into account is Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people for the last 30 years. Not that this is a justification for the October 7th attack, however desperate people have been know to render desperate deeds. Again I condemn the use of violence anywhere, anytime.

You are on point with that statement, " western double standard ", brother. As I stated in another post, it never ceases to amaze me how people find reasons to justify unjust actions happening to others, they would not want happening to themselves.

I am calling for Hamas to surrender. I have condemned their use of violence long before this attack, in other discussions about this conflict. I condemn the use of violence anywhere full stop. I am baffled by the fact that folks aren't condemning the acts of settler violence on Palestinians. They aren't condemning the settlers who are continually illegally taking land of the Palestinians. In this article about " Arabs" who live in Isreal what one girl states kinda encapsulates this thread for me https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citizens-cmd-intl/index.html " Buttu said that as a Palestinian in Israel she feel like she is by default considered a threat, The only way I am not part of the human animal group is if I denounce terrorism first. I have to prove my humanity to them but I never ask Jewish people to denounce the settlers violence, to denounce those attacks she said " This illustrates in reverse the double standard in this thread, many people, and rightfully so denounce the terrorist attacks/ violence committed by Hamas. Not many posters in this thread condemn the acts of violence perpetrated by Isreali settlers on Palestinians.

So you don't think the war in Gaza, or a more apt description is, Israel destroying Gaza, is one of the most destructive in history ? " Experts say the besieged strip is unrecognisable and it's bombing the most destructive in modern history " As for figures in relation to damage, there are a few so I chose to use an Isreali source that quotes a world bank report " Over 60 percent of residential buildings in the Gaza strip or 132,590 buildings have been damaged amid the war " The body calculated that the destruction had left 1,076, Gazans with out a home, out of a population of 2.2 million. https://www.timesofisrael.com/world-bank-report-finds-45-of-residential-buildings-in-gaza-ruined-beyond-repair/ Now this is not to belittle the figure of just over a 1000 Isrealis and other foreign national killed on October the 7th, however do you honestly believe that this is a proportionate response to that attack ? The majority of the civilised world states this is a humanitarian crisis. To put the civilian deaths in Gaza into context with war in Ukraine which has been going on for nearly 2 years 10,000 civilian deaths in 2 years in Ukraine These are the latest figures I could find for deaths in Gaza, 26,000 all told. So if you take out 9,000 Hamas fighters that is 16,000 civilian deaths in 4 months. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/live-updates-gaza-death-toll-surpasses-26000-israel-106701308 " Daily death rate higher than any other major 21st century conflict " https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam So if the forming of a state is not a right, what right did the Israelis/ Jews have back in 1948 to form their state ? To use the words of a couple of Rabbis the Zionists sent to Palestine at the turn of the century in regards to setting up a Jewish state, they sent back a letter that stated, " the bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man " However I am not arguing against a Israeli state, I have continually stated that both the Palestinians and the Israelis have the right to self determination, to live in free and just societies. So even though many Isrealis themselves, as well as many international human right institutions, state Israel is practising arpartheid on the Israeli people you are OK with that ? Don't you realise that what happens to Palestinians in the west bank affects Palestinians in Gaza and east Jerusalem as well, they don't differentiate between themselves, they are all Palestinians and consider themselves one people. It never ceases to amaze me me how people find ways to justify unjust things happening to other people, they wouldn't happening to them. This attitude is why Hamas is able to exist.

I am losing track of all the articles you are stating I am posting. Of the articles I have posted, from memory, the number of fighters that have been killed ,between 7-9000 and the number of fighters always between 25 - 30,000. Please correct me by quoting the article if I am wrong. Those articles are quoting Prominent Isrealis stating that Israel practices arpartheid on the Palestinians. Don't you believe that arpartheid is a form of persecution. In a previous post yesterday, I quoted the highest Isreali court stated Isreal discriminates against the Palestinian people. Discrimination, persecution, arpartheid, choose your own word. Me I only have to see what is happening to the Palestinians to come to this conclusion. As for, if you agree with your government, in regards to illegal Israeli settlements that's a fair assertion, when one person/ organisation/ government tells me something, I will take it on board and research further, in this case many governments hold the same position as the Canadian. My government included. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-08/government-hardens-against-israel-palestine-settlements/102702558 What's important to remember is that all these governments and many people realise is that these settlements are an impediment to peace. Here is the legal arguments to back up this claim. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/study-legality-israeli-occupation-occupied-palestinian-territory-including-east-jerusalem Can I get you to admit just a couple of simple things ? That Palestinians have the right to self determination, to form a viable state and live in a free and just society. I have stated numerous times that Israel has the right to these things to.

We here in Australia allow dual citizenship, if the laws of the other countries allow it. At least we are one step towards a world society. And speaking of dual citizenship, I very rarely saw my father angry however one of the few times was when he found out this. When I first got my Aussie passport and started ski bumming around the world, my father who was English/British suggested I get a British passport as well, as an Australian this was allowed. All the " children" of British subjects are entitled to a British passport. When I applied and they found out I was adopted, they refused to give me a British passport. Apparently they didn't consider the only man, the best man I have ever known, who I had called father since a few months old, was my father.

The Palestinians not being persecuted Would you believe an ex head of the Mossad Tamir Pardo https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief Or how about a bunch of ex Isreali politicians https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree Or how about some leading Isreali scholars prominent Isreali holocaust scholars https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/27/accusing-israel-of-apartheid-is-not-anti-semitic-holocaust-historian Or how about an Isreali human rights organisation http://www.btselem.org/publications/202210_not_a_vibrant_democracy_this_is_apartheid I haven't even bothered to post sources outside of Israel. Now for the illegal settlements " As has been the position of successive Canadian governments Canada does not recognise permanent Isreali control over territories occupied in 1967 and strongly opposes illegal settlement outposts in the west bank " Most countries including the US hold this position. As for your " disingenuous" claim Five days ago https://nypost.com/2024/01/21/news/israel-has-only-killed-20-30-of-hamas-terrorists-us-says/ " The US estimates that Hamas has between 25,000 to 30,000 members a more conservative estimate than Israels that which pegs the terrorists fighting force at 30,000 or more. " No where can I find a figure anywhere near your claim of 50,000. I am sorry you are frustrated, personally I am equally heartbroken by the events of October 7th and the events in Gaza since. How is it sacrificing others to work out a deal to save the hostages lived ? As one of the most experienced Israeli Hamas negotiators Gershon Baskin has noted in advocating for a hostage deal " You can finish the war later " Trust what you want. Personally I go to media bias and check their opinion on the news agency I am quoting. They are a respected fact checking organisation. Finally I can tell you what isn't productive, not just this particular conflict, but all the conflicts that our stupid species finds stupid reasons to kill and injure our fellow human being in. Women and children are the ones who pay the ultimate price.

I know about the horrors you are talking about. All I can say is how I would act, what my conscience dictates. If I was an Isreali or a Palestinian I would be a member of one of those organisations that I have posted articles and videos about. The groups that work together for a peaceful resolution to this never ending conflict.

The People of Dicksville were elated to have killed the head of the Dickcheese gang. Running around the streets of Dicksville they found @Time Lord, them proceeded to best him to death with a cheese board. Meanwhile the Dickcheeses, after losing their leader were running around like a headless chook, they could not, or would not act. Even though I did not warn @Qwags he has not voted for two nights running so he has been GK. @Time Lord Was Warren "mozzarella "Fielding A Dicksvillian @Qwags Was August " Parneen " Volmer A Dicksvillian The last nightfall will be at 8pm Friday Vancouver time. Tomorrow I am going to ice-skating first and then seeing my favourite all time band, NOFX for the last time, they are calling it quits after 40 years. Surviving players @SnakeDoctor @Sharpshooter @Lewitelli

Votes TL - 2 votes - Lewitelli - SD Qwags - 1 vote - TL No votes Sharpshooter Qwags TL you have been voted out. You may have your last words NF incoming

Voting closed

Vote count TL - 1 vote - Lewitelli No votes @Qwags @Sharpshooter @Time Lord @SnakeDoctor

I don't know what this has to do with what a stated. My morals tell me that I have to stay true to myself no matter what others around me do. That I must treat others with respect, dignity and compassion even when though they don't reciprocate. I have learnt the hard way that hanging onto hate only hurts me. It was eating me up the desire for revenge. That I had to forgive the person that hurt me so that not only could I move on with my life, but stay true to who I am. The second time around I haven't made the same mistake. I don't carry any anger/ hatred in my heart to the person who has broken it.

1. Why do you think there is passive support for Hamas ? The Palestinians are being persecuted, having their land stolen from them, of course there is going to be some kind of support for the people who stand up against the people who are persecuting them and taking their land. And no I am not justifying Hamas using violence, simply explaining why some Palestinians will passively support them. 2. Facts are Facts, Isreal is ranked the 17th most powerful military in the world. According to their own figures they are fighting between 25- 30,000 Hamas fighters. Last figures I posted, from an Isreali source, they claimed they had killed 7- 8000 Hamas fighters. That was just over a week ago from memory. A quick google search just confirmed 9,000 fighters, so please stop with the " propaganda " that the figure is 11-12,000. US intelligence five days ago claimed somewhere between 20- 30 percent of Hamas fighters have been killed https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-toll-thus-far-falls-short-of-israels-war-aims-u-s-says-d1c43164 You are not " surprised " that 100,000 people have been killed, well over a ration of 10 civilians to 1 Hamas terrorists. You are happy with that ? That there have been over 22,000 strikes in an area a quarter the size of London ? How did you feel about the IDF gunning down those Israeli hostages that had escaped ? How did you feel about them gunning down the Palestinian that was waving a white flag ? 3. You should read that quote more carefully, Beware that, when you are fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster. That quote is not stating only monsters can fight monsters, it is a warning that you don't become the evil/ monster that you are fighting. You can fight monsters with out becoming a monster yourself. More and more countries around the world are coming to the conclusion that Israels response is disproportionate in relation to the October the 7th attack. This war, according to the experts, with the figures to back it up, is among the most destructive in history https://www.afr.com/world/middle-east/israel-s-war-in-gaza-is-among-the-most-destructive-in-history-experts-say-20231222-p5et8k " In just over two months, the offensive has wreaked more destruction, than the razing of Syria's Aleppo between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine's Mariupol or, proportionally the Allied bombing of Germany in WW2 " You can be OK with that, I am certainly not. It has created a humanitarian crisis that is disproportionate to what the Isrealis experienced themselves. As for negotiating with the terrorists, I wonder how you would feel about this if any of the hostages were relatives of yours.

It has everything to do with morals. Just because something has been a certain way forever doesn't make it right, or justifiable. Well it's great to see our species evolving. Using the same reasons to justify killing each other. Just because this is the way we acted in the past, that rationalises immoral and unjust acts in the present. My dad lied about his age in order to charge up the beach of another country, to help free the people in that country, and other countries in Europe. He didn't even make it up the beach. The Palestinian people themselves aren't fighting a war against Israel, a terror group that makes a very small percentage of their population has and is committing acts of terror against them. Do you call it a war when 17th ranked military in the world has recorded over 22,000 strikes in 3 months alone on an area that is the quarter of the size of London. Over 25,000 people killed in retaliation for the October 7th attacks. 70 percent of homes destroyed. Do you call that a proportionate response ? A big chunk of the civilised world is starting to state that this response is disproportionate. After all of what you stated in that post, I would expect you of all people to empathize with the Palestinians, who were victims long before the October 7th attacks. Israel's own courts have stated this. You know what I taught Lachlan ? I taught him to treat others the way he wants to be treated himself, with dignity, respect and compassion. That when others around him aren't treating him or others like that, it is even more important that he does this, that he remains true to what he is. Do you comprehend my analogy in the context of the discussion we are having ? All any of us can take to the grave with us is being true to who we are. I used the Nietzsche quote, beware that when fighting monsters, you yourself, do not become a monster Is that what you want to mean to being true to yourself ? Becoming that which you fight ?

" I am not impressed by a social movement that defines itself by what it doesn't believe in " Greg Raffin PHD Evolutionary biologist. UCLA lecturer in natural sciences Received the Rushdie award for Cultural humanism. A Practitioner of Naturalism And most important of all the lead singer of Bad Religion.

Clicked onto this link in that article you posted. https://www.hrw.org/report/2010/12/19/separate-and-unequal/israels-discriminatory-treatment-palestinians-occupied Even if you want to ignore many of the things the report states, what about this " Isreals highest court has ruled that certain measures imposed upon Palestinians citizens of Israel were illegal because they were discriminatory. The court has also ruled that certain Israeli military measures in the west bank, including bans on Palestinian drivers using roads and the route of certain parts of Israel's seperation barrier have disproportionately harmed Palestinians when weighed against the benefits to settlers and other Israelis " Even the Israeli justice/legal system states Israel practices discrimination against the Palestinians.

Good news on not just the Alzheimer's front but also from a human perspective. https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/indian-teen-invents-gadget-to-transform-dementia-care-out-of-concern-for-his-grandmother/