Ilunga

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Yes I did. However the Shah was so corrupt he virtually opened the door for the fanatic clerics to walk in and take control. I have a great deal of respect, historically speaking, for Mohammad Mosaddegh, a democratically elected leader of Iran, who, unfornately was overthrown in a CIA backed coup.

Well after what you have stated, and I trust what you state, it almost sound likes like there should be a one state solution. Palestinians become fully equal in all regards to Isrealis,they slowly gain the trust to help govern at certain levels. Then have a voice in parliament. Trust is earnt. Share the home they both have inhabited for time immemorial. I saw your post about no more Mfers and I agree, no race of people has been persecuted for so long culminating in one of the most horrifying acts in human history. However things have changed. Most governments have come out in support of Isreal. I do believe, as you state, that Hamas is not only attacking Isreal but are also are sh!tty leaders of their people. The same could be said about Netanyahu. And no I don't know of Palestinians prosecuting Palestinians for crimes against Isrealis.

As this article illustrates there has been infighting in Isreals Army and security services. My guess is the controversial policies of Netanyahu, the middle easts version of trump. https://fortune.com/2023/10/07/attacks-on-israel-suggest-shocking-failure-of-intelligence-agencies/

You know why most nations have their embassies in Tel Aviv,it's one of the reasons behind a two state solution. Also the Knesset passed the Jerusalem law in 1980. So no in the history of the modern state of Israel Jerusalem has not always been the capital of Isreal. If it was a road to peace I would fully advocate for all countries to place their embassies in Jerusalem. Do you believe that Isreal should share Jerusalem with the Palestinians ?

As you know I am well versed in the history behind this, dating back to what has been described as the first modern act of terrorism, the bombing of the King David hotel. There is no condoning violence of any sort unless it is in the last defence of those you love. I wonder how we would feel if we had our homes/ freedom taken from us, forced to live in sub human conditions. This does not condone what the Palestinians have done. I was disgusted to just see the leader of Iran's comments. The celebrations in Iran, Iraq, Yemen. The circle of hatred keeps continuing. This is where I get your disgust for religion, it is at the heart of this conflict. I know how Roman would feel and I really do empathise with him. People are being killed. I empathise with all human beings who are suffering. As I have stated, I am not an Australian, I am a human being that shares this planet with nearly 8 billion other human beings. Maybe if everyone all thought this way there would be less wars/ killings.

I wonder how many people actually know the history, even just the last few decades behind this. Then when Trump emboldened the Isrealis by putting the US embassy in Jerusalem. How the illegal settlements have increased to the point both our governments,the G7, the US and European foreign ministers have been forced to criticise Isreal. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-16/australia-condemns-israel-over-occupied-west-bank-settlements/101986598

" So the Irish hate the Irish And it's Arab versus Jew You're cactus if you're Kurdish And by Christ I'm sick of you " Lines from a 25 year old anti - racist song by TISM. At least the Irish have got their sh!t together. I feel for the Kurds the most. They cop it from all sides.

I have read the Bible both testaments 3 times. The Qur'an twice, English translation. I am told some of it is lost in translation. They like Judaism are Abrahamic religions. Two dudes that walked into the wilderness and a god supposedly communicated with them. A few key differences in regards to some figures, Jesus, Mary and others. The Qu'ran is what one would describe as a bit more spiritually orientated. All three have " clerics " that like to argue about the meaning of the words/ allegories contained in the texts. The bible has many sources/ authors, the Qu'ran just one. I could post a lot more however if you are really interested you should check them out. The study of comparative religion is interesting.

I won't even bother with international sources, the UN and amnesty international amongst others. These are Isreali politician's, including two ex PM's, Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert. Prominent officials, ex chief of Mossad, Tamir Pardo, all state that Isreal practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people. The former speaker of the Isreali parliament Avraham Burg, the renowned Isreali historian Benny Morris are among more than 2000 Isreali and American public figures who have signed a recent public statement declaring that " Palestinians live under an arpartheid regime " B'Tselm, an Israeli human rights organisation, states Isreal is practising arpartheid on the Palestinian people https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief http://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid So are these people anti - Semites ?

Nah like Sharpie stated, unlike the original thread on the old forum, this discussion is reasonably polite. EP got a little flustered however I don't think anyone was attacking him personally. Ideas are there to be challenged, especially ideas that have no evidence to back them up. Personally, I will never attack a persons faith, even if I don't agree with them, I believe reason and logic are better tools. It all gets down to how you treat others. I have read most religious texts at least twice. You have to look past the words to find the meanings of the allegories they contain.

I look to the great thinkers for guidance, my opinions/ views are formed with their input. However in the end I am a strong willed person that makes his own decisions and comes to his own conclusions. Why I am an agnostic is that I cannot come to a conclusion about the existence of a god. The Quote of Sagan's I posted summed up my thoughts best.

The only people I knew that were against gay marriage in our country were some of my friends who are as far from religious as you could get. Like I love them dearly, they have been loyal great friends however they just didn't get it. How do I put this, I pointed out they did same thing with girls and yet they couldn't handle the idea of consenting males doing it. I have a problem with anyone who tries to force their beliefs on anyone. So long as you are not impacting others in a negative manner, then what right has anyone to step in and tell you what is wrong or right Therein lies the rub, who determines what is a negative manner, wrong/ right Good and bad are subjective things determined by the majority in any given society. I know what I believe is good/ bad and when I have the right to step in and make not only a judgement but act. Several times in my life I have been put into the position of having to step in and stop a man from assaulting a woman. One of those times I knew I was going to get the Sh!t beaten out of me, and I did, however you have to stand up for what is right.

I am aware of all their quotes. You don't believe that I accessed dozens of their quotes on brainy quote and other sources. Those people still expressed their agnostic views, as do other great thinkers. Again I am not emotionally invested. I have an open mind to many possibilities, I believe this is a good thing. What I do know for a fact, as I have stated many times on this forum, when I die, my constituent elements go back to the stars from whence they came. I also feel a for want of a better word a spiritual connection to nature, I always have. From my days exploring the remote places in the high plains on dirt bikes, to back country skiing both here and around the world. As a farmer I feel a connection to the land, I can't really explain that connection to others that don't feel it.

I mean this with all respect, you have changed my friend. I have always admired your intelligence, your ability to think critically and logically. You have empathy and compassion for others. Sometimes I felt you used to make it personal, for a while now you have mellowed a bit. You are a good person brother, and I have no doubt you are making a great job of being a father. I have never understood why people have make things personal.

I am emotionally invested ? How so ? I don't have a horse in the race as the saying goes. Again it's just a discussion to me. So Sagan, Darwin, Degrassi Tyson, Einstein, they were/ are all on the wrong side of logic ?

Times have changed my friend. And they are continuing to change. My 87 year old devout Catholic mother would have voted yes in our gay marriage referendum a while back if she had lived, she died a month before it was held. She told me the majority of her congregation was going to vote yes. My mums faith was the ultimate guide post to mine. Like my parents taught me, the " commandments " can be condensed to one simple rule, treat others the way you wish to be treated. Especially when those around you are not doing this. Take it from me, this is the hardest challenge, but one I have lived up to. All you can take to the grave with you is being true to yourself. That is being true to myself. As for abortion, you must be referencing America, in both our countries abortion is legal and many religious people condone both birth control and a woman's body, a woman's choice.

I grew up with religious people and went to church with them and none of them wanted to convert others to their beliefs. As far as I know the vast majority of believers are the same, happy in their congregations/ communities. Have the very few religious people who have contributed to this discussion tried to convert anyone ? No.

I don't know how many times I have to explain this I am a agnostic Definition " One who is not committed to believing in either the existence or non existence of god or a god "

Why, I don't ask you to change your beliefs, or put shit upon them. It's just another discussion to me.

You know very well we get to a point where we have don't have the knowledge to answer the question of creation.

Have I ever stated that a god even exists let alone created anything ? No I haven't.

And where did they come from ?

So where did those stars come from ?

Only those who are trying to convince others to believe in a god have to provide evidence to others who do not, to convince them to believe. The vast majority of believers like my parents,were/are not trying to convince non believers to believe.