eeeeeeeeergh

tbh im reading EPs posts like hes asking legit questions and hes hearing our points which makes him 1/1000 people who are openminded enough to have this dialogue and actually listen notice nobody else who's approaching this from the israeli perspective is coming with an open mind its cathartic for these words to actually be heard and considered, it gives me hope

I appreciate you for your questions and discussions @Elias Pettersson I apologize if Im getting emotional

Palestine wasn't British land. It was a League of Nations mandate. Here is the League of Nations definition of what they intended by mandate: "administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone" So given that this was the legal status of the land - do you think that it was within Britain's legal right to allow a foreign population to come in and conquer the land by method of ethnic cleansing from villages and towns?

Sorry I dont think legal paperwork had anything to do with this. This was the early 20th century, in a place in the world where there were villages and towns where most people built their homes with their own bare hands and operated communal farms. I dont know this for a fact, but im pretty sure that there was no functional land titles office or registry in greater Palestine at the time. I know youre looking for a date that these people "owned" the homes, and that date would be up until 1948. What we do know for sure is that these villages and towns HAD people who lived in homes that they lived in, and european/north american settlers came in and burned those villages to the ground, forcing them to leave. If you'd like a list of those villages, here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_and_villages_depopulated_during_the_1947–1949_Palestine_war Here's one example - Jaffa: " On 25 April 1948, the Irgun launched an offensive on Jaffa. This began with a mortar bombardment which went on for three days during which twenty tons of high explosive were fired into the town.[61][62] On 27 April the British Government, fearing a repetition of the mass exodus from Haifa the week before, ordered the British Army to confront the Irgun and their offensive ended. Simultaneously the Haganah had launched Operation Hametz, which overran the villages east of Jaffa and cut the town off from the interior.[63] The fall of Haifa a few days earlier, and fear of another massacre similar to Irgun's Deir Yassin massacre, caused panic across the Arabs of Jaffa, leading most of them to flee.[64] The population of Jaffa on the eve of the attack was between 50,000 and 60,000, with some 20,000 people having already left the town.[61] By 30 April, there were 15,000–25,000 remaining.[63][65] In the following days a further 10,000–20,000 people fled by sea. When the Haganah took control of the town on 14 May around 4,000 people were left.[66] The town and harbour's warehouses were extensively looted.[67][68]"

I love you, and your hockey posts, and that youre open minded enough to engage fully here, so I hope this is coming across with the respect I intend but this post reveals a significant knowledge gap about the actual events that took place in the 1940s and how the arab "Palestinians" ended up displaced This wasn't a "legal process" by which British courts, or Palestinian Courts, or Israeli courts, calmly sorted through land titles. Irgun Lehi and other jewish paramilitary organizations poisoned village wells and burned over 500 villages to the ground, forcing Palestinians who didn't die to flee. Then in 1948 the new state of israel created the "law of return" which allowed any jewish person any where to come to Israel and build a home, and prevented who fled their homes to escape the violence from coming home (israel deemed them absentee landlords). It was straight robbery.

What if instead of going through the courts, the invaders simply razed 530 villages to the ground or poisoned the village well water between the years of 1947 and 1949, forcing 750000 people to flee their homes, then in 1950, because these people were "absent", Israels new court system said that those homes were now Israeli property? Because this is exactly what happened.

Theres two groups of people who side with Israel: 1. People who believe that evicting people from their homes was justified b/c the torah made them a religious promise 2. People who just woke up and discovered this conflict this past weekend with absolutely zero understanding of why 2 million+ Palestinians are living in exile

If a child is throwing a Molotov cocktail you can’t blame the soldier but all too often it’s been children throwing stones, or just sitting in their house, or lying in a hospital bed- and the house, or school, or hospital gets vaporized in an Israeli air strike because they claim a Hamas operative was inside. up until 2002, it was officially IDF policy to use Palestinians as human shields (can look this up, Israel doesn’t deny this). Israel puts on the thinnest possible veneer of “care” for civilian lives, just enough to give its Ally countries political cover. But not enough to actually protect civilians from its wrath. Israel uses the same justification for vaporizing a school, mosque, or hospital, as the US did when Napalming villages. “There are some viet cong there living among them”

the Jewish people are hands down the most persecuted group in history, we agree completely. no group had endured atrocities like they have. to be extremely clear: I have NO objection to Jewish people having a state. In fact I think it’s a pretty fucking good considering how the world has treated them for the past 2000 years. what I object to is stealing other peoples homes and then enforcing apartheid on the prisoners and refugees that they created when they conquered other peoples land.

The PLO (now known as Fatah) would take this in a heartbeat, Netanyahu has made it clear, even when there were no rocket attacks that settlement activity would continue, so Israel’s not going for that deal. you have to remember too that the current government of Israel got angry at any countries that considered recognizing Palestine as a state, the sheer fucking irony https://amp.france24.com/en/20160201-israels-netanyahu-slams-france-threat-recognise-palestine and condemned the UN for recognizing Palestine https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/29/united-nations-vote-palestine-state

Hes talking about this, and other events like it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faris_Odeh

Roman theres a difference between a stone and a molotov cocktail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faris_Odeh shot in the neck throwing a STONE not a molotov cocktail at a tank 14 years old

I mean.. personally I blame the original settlers too. I don't blame their kids who were born in Israel though - they didnt choose where they were born. The only reason I even believe in a 2 state solution is because I don't think you can punish the children of the original sinners. It would be wrong to displace the people who were born in Israel since its inception.

FWIW, as someone whos been following this conflict in detail since I was a child (family ties to the conflict and all) there is about a 0% chance this escalates to WW3 Most people dont realize that this is not the first time Israel has launched an all out ground assault in Gaza. Most recently, Israel intervened in 2014, back when the Arab world was actually MORE at odds with the West than they are today. Today, the Arab world has way more to lose, and you can see it in how they've responded. In 2014, the Arab world was threatening war with Israel. Today, they're "urging Israel to exercise restraint". Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and most of the Arab world have all been aiming to normalize relations with Israel for mutual economic benefit. Hezbollah can get involved all it likes, the last time it did, Israel annihilated it too, and the rest of the Arab world refused to intervene/participate. Israel/Palestine will not become a proxy war for major powers because there is no strategic value to the land for any of them (unlike Ukraine which is strategically valuable for Russia and for NATO). The US knows it doesn't have to intervene because Israel has the means to wipe out Iran if it so wishes (nukes). China already released their statement urging restraint and a ceasefire - they have no interest in getting involved in a military conflict over Palestine/Israel. They're saving that for a potential future war over Taiwan. People thinking this is going to cause WW3 is just a symptom of this being their first exposure to the Israel/Palestine crisis which has escalated past this point, and de-escalated, in times when Arab states had far more ability and desire to go to war than they do today.

Great question - Letter on July 14, Hussein to Mcmahon: "England to acknowledge the independence of the Arab countries, bounded on the North by Mersina and Adana up to 37 degrees of latitude, on which degree fall Birijik, Urfa, Mardin, Midiat, Jerizat (Ibn `Umar), Amadia, up to the border of Persia; on the east by the borders of Persia up to the Gulf of Basra; on the South by the Indian Ocean, with the exception of the position of Aden to remain as it is; on the west by the Red Sea, the Mediterranean Sea up to Mersina." Oct 24, Mcmahon to Hussein: " As for those regions lying within those frontiers wherein Great Britain is free to act without detriment to the interests of her ally, France... Great Britain is prepared to recognise and support the independence of the Arabs in all the regions within the limits demanded by the Sherif of Mecca." I would also like the opportunity to explain the chronology here, because I think this is the root of the misunderstanding, and why people think "settler colonialism" is just rhetoric rather than a factual basis for what occured. First of all - its important to acknowledge that in 1915, there was no state of "Israel" nor or was there a country known as "Palestine". What there was was multiple towns and cities that made up the geographic region that we now know as Israel and Palestine with the following demographic makeup: Jewish: 90,000 Non-Jewish (mix of Muslim and Christian): 600,000 Jewish people in the territories known as Israel/Palestine today amounted to around 12-13%. 1917: Balfour declaration, and the British supports the mass migration of Jewish people in Europe and North America to "Palestine" (at this point this is what the entire territory was called). Between 1915 and 1947, over 500,000 Jewish people migrate from Europe and North America to "Palestine". To make room for those Jewish people, the native population was evicted from their homes and chased out of the towns they lived in. Its important to note that in 1936, in the middle of all of this, the native population TRIED to fight back and protest this displacement - they revolted against the British (the migration was sanctioned by Britain and Britain had declared Palestine its mandate), and got crushed. In this time period, Jewish terrorist organizations, including Irgun, use violence including bombing arab villages and towns to encourage the still majority Arab population to flee key areas including Jerusalem. See Deir Yassin Massacre as an example. Jewish terrorist organizations also target the British, who at this point are growing concerned about just how many european and north american jewish people are colonizing Palestine, and try to limit the migration numbers. The most notable event here is the bombing of the King David Hotel by Irgun. Now after ALL of this - the UN in 1947 recommends a partition plan, an Arab state and a separate Jewish state, meaning that people who were forced to leave their homes would never be able to return. In 1948, the still minority Jewish population declares an Independent jewish state. Over the span of 30 years, the native Palestinian population was effectively removed from their homes, and conquered by military force. Fast forward to today: the 2 million people in Gaza are the children and grandchildren of the people cleansed from their towns to make way for European and North American Jewish migrants. Israel removed its illegal settlements from Gaza, but did put up walls and assumed complete control over the import of goods into Gaza, including food, water, medical supplies, building materials, etc. These people are effectively prisoners, with no ability to leave. What these people want - is to go home to the towns they came from. Israel cannot let that happen, because if they do, that means welcoming back so many Arabs that Israel is no longer majority Jewish. There is literally no debate - this WAS settler colonialism. Anyone who says otherwise is lying or ignorant. The territory now known as Israel was conquered by European and North American born people between the 1920s and 1930s, exercising their "birthright" to land that was promised to them by God. They needed to remove the local native population which they did. What we are dealing with today in Gaza and the West Bank IS that native population that was removed. THAT is where we need to start, if you're truly going to understand why terrorism exists in Palestine.

okay so just so i understand - you wouldn’t have been ok with the offer, but they should have been, in 1948? hamas isn’t the first terrorist organization in Palestine, it won’t be the last. If you wipe them out by blowing up apartment buildings, and keep building settlements in the West Bank, guess what comes next? the PLO renounced violence as demanded by the Palestinian people, to enter negotiations with Israel. In that time, Israel kept building settlements, kept the occupation, kept apartheid conditions, and refused to let anyone who was driven from their homes come back to their town. The reason Hamas exists today is because the PLO choosing peace failed, and the intl community DGAF about the Palestinian people.

Here you go, in writing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon–Hussein_Correspondence#:~:text=The McMahon–Hussein Correspondence is,Revolt against the Ottoman Empire.

so cleansing is the perfect word to describe the following: - mass migrating to a land you have no citizenship or residence in - then once you’re there, massacring civilians to force them to flee their homes sorry I don’t consider that “war”. It doesn’t make the slightest bit of moral difference that this series of events was sanctioned by the British. the children of those people are the ones living in refugee camps in gaza, and who are losing what remaining homes they have left to Israeli settlement building in the West Bank if someone chases you out of your village with guns and bombs then offers you 38% of it 5 years later i don’t expect you to be okay with that offer

The big hole in this argument? The settlers/colonialists who cleansed the land of the now palestinian refugees to make way for the state of Israel are Europeans and North Americans. Sharing religious identity with a completely different group of people who lived in the land 2000 years ago does NOT make it okay to kick people out of their homes and steal their land. If you accept the logic behind the argument - I, as a Muslim, am entitled to live in Saudi arabia because we share the same religion, even though I nor my parents or grandparents ever lived there.

one way or another i think we do bring in another RD management prob wanted to see if soucy or cole could slide over, its pretty clear tocchet wants a real RD and management knows mcward on the 1st pair isnt getting us into the playoffs

Let it be done.

i like it - an optimistic take. Hope youre right

the moment we traded OEL, he became a #1 defenseman the moment we trade garland, hes going to grow 6 inches book it

I think this basically rules out the garland-for-peeke hope

I agree that the state of Israel has a right to exist, I don't dispute that. I don't condone the massacre of civilians, no matter the context, ever. What I'm trying to say is that most people woke up a few days ago, bewildered, never having had any reason or desire to follow the conflict. As a result, they have no clue why the Palestinian people are so angry. They've been sold the notion that this terrorist attack was a random outburst of violence. I've seen tons of comments like Heffys all over social media (carpet bombing all of Gaza and killing as many civilians as necessary to eradicate Hamas), so I'm trying to show them just how deep and violent the atrocities committed against the Palestinian people have been. My hope is that people will research this and realize that the root cause of this terrorism, as usually is the case of ALL terrorism (see the IRA, Al Shabab, Al Qaeda, etc.) is massive state violence either against its own population or another population. So hopefully they stand up and call for the end of those atrocities, and the resolution of the Palestinians grievances.