[PGT] Canucks vs Sharks - Nov 20, 2023

[Slegr]

38 minutes ago, stawns said:

I think we can all (well most of us) agree that they play better in the black skate 

Yea to this. In playoffs, you’re only allowed one home jersey - which would people prefer to see? I know which ones the Canucks would want to play in.

[AnthonyG]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Facts. Gillis was GM and POHO during our most successful era. Than the  Benning dark years. Now we have competent management again. 

Gillis produced nothing for the future. Closed the window to win on the Sedins the moment their prime ended, handed out countless NMC and NTCs that handcuffed the next GM. Gillis made playoffs 5/6 years with the “most successful” era of Canucks and squashed our hopes rather quickly. 2 1st round exits followed by a missed post season after back to back presidents trophies, sounds like more of a major failure than anything. He floated along on the prime years of the core that was handed to him and did sweet fuck all with it in the end. Thanks to Benning we now have 8-10years of solid hockey from this core to try and win a cup. Facts.

[Breadnbutta]

54 minutes ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

Supporting cast, depth, prospect pool.

 

This regime has a far easier job than the last one. That's for fucking sure.

I'm not sure about that. JB left this team a mess.

 

Sure the last regime inherited aging past their prime stars and these guys had young upcoming stars but these guys were ruthless.

 

Trade the captain, hang the coach out to dry, Trade a first for a top d man.

They are aggressive. It took balls to buy out OEL.

 

Benning would not be this successful if he inherited this team.

 

And honestly from finishing in the bottom of the league for so long we should have good young players. That's the cycle.

 

The previous regime was horrid regardless of situation.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, AnthonyG said:

Gillis produced nothing for the future. Closed the window to win on the Sedins the moment their prime ended, handed out countless NMC and NTCs that handcuffed the next GM. Gillis made playoffs 5/6 years with the “most successful” era of Canucks and squashed our hopes rather quickly. 2 1st round exits followed by a missed post season after back to back presidents trophies, sounds like more of a major failure than anything. He floated along on the prime years of the core that was handed to him and did sweet fuck all with it in the end. Thanks to Benning we now have 8-10years of solid hockey from this core to try and win a cup. Facts.

Not arguing any of that. Gillis had a great club and was using young assets (picks and prospects) to get that elite core a Cup. Then, when he saw the window closing he went to the owner with a plan to rebuild. The owner fired Gillis and hired Benning. 
 

[AnthonyG]

1 hour ago, grumpyone said:

not sure how THIS isn't intent to injure.

Honestly that was just unfortunate timing and his follow through showed little intent to injure, moreso just tried to get a piece of him and get him against the boards. As soon as he begins to reach out, Garland turns his hips and goes from taking the cross check on the side of the hip to the backside of the hip which caused him to immediately toe pick and go head first. 

[CanucksJay]

1 hour ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

This is where patience is the better road to travel. A lot of teams (Toronto is a good example) keep trading firsts and making moves, trying to find "the missing piece".

Look where Toronto is. Spinning it's wheels. In worse cap situation than ever. With no way they are going to sign Nylander, unless he decides not to get a raise, or  unless they make some moves. With 2 firsts in 3 years and no second round picks.

 

Now is not the time to fall into the trap of going "all in" .

 

40 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

We are already pretty much there tho. The commitment to JT over Bo, getting Hronek, the d additions pretty much is this teams all in.

 

We need some better support players now. 

 

Toronto is in a slightly different situation because they are paying Marner, Tavares and Matthews 11m+ each. 

Miller is our better version of Tavares and we have him locked @ 8m

Petey will prob make 10.5m+ so we can say that's a wash with Marner yet Petey is the  better player. 

 

We then don't have a 3rd guy making 11.5m in Matthews. 

Boeser is next making current Nylander money (while Nylander is looking to cash in this summer and will make more than Boeser. 

The rest of our guys, Mik, Kuz are making tyler Bertuzzi money. 

 

Lastly, Reilly is making quinn Hughes money. 

 

Funny how the hockey capital of the world has to overpay their players to keep them. What good is Tavares wanting to come home when he takes up 11m cap space? 

 

We have our core players signed to better contracts and our core players are better than theirs. 

 

If one of our core guys wants to get paid at the expense of team success, we will ship him out (a la Horvat). I think that's the true difference. JR and PA have made better decisions in terms of contracts and pro scouting. This will allow us to add/buy. 

 

As @Bob Long stated, we are pretty close to what we want in a finished roster. Our Core is young and still improving. 

We are missing one more solid top 4 D man, and maybe an upgrade at a forward position.

Our bottom 6 has also looked really good. 

I would be fine going into the playoffs with

 

PDG Miller Boeser 

Kuz Petey Mik 

Garland Suter Joshua

Hogz Bleuger Lafferty

Beau

 

Hughes Hronek 

Top4D Cole 

Myers Soucy 

Friedman

 

Demko

DeSmith 

 

We have Lekkermaki, Willander Raty Podz simmering.... 

 

We then have a bunch of B prospects that can still make the show

Karlsson, Hirose, Mcward, Wolanin, Bains 

 

I actually think we can afford to buy a top 4 D this year and see how deep we can go. Playoffs will show us what we are lacking and management can then figure out next steps. 

 

My guess is that the issue might be size up front. 

 

[CanucksJay]

5 minutes ago, Breadnbutta said:

I'm not sure about that. JB left this team a mess.

 

Sure the last regime inherited aging past their prime stars and these guys had young upcoming stars but these guys were ruthless.

 

Trade the captain, hang the coach out to dry, Trade a first for a top d man.

They are aggressive. It took balls to buy out OEL.

 

Benning would not be this successful if he inherited this team.

 

And honestly from finishing in the bottom of the league for so long we should have good young players. That's the cycle.

 

The previous regime was horrid regardless of situation.

I was a Benning supporter but your post is so correct. Benning drafted well but that's where it ended. 

No way Benning would have the balls to buy out OEL  and make the tough decisions like trading Horvat and taking that first and flipping it for Hronek or make key pro signings 

 

Benning should just be running the scouting dept 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

 

 

Toronto is in a slightly different situation because they are paying Marner, Tavares and Matthews 11m+ each. 

Miller is our better version of Tavares and we have him locked @ 8m

Petey will prob make 10.5m+ so we can say that's a wash with Marner yet Petey is the  better player. 

 

We then don't have a 3rd guy making 11.5m in Matthews. 

Boeser is next making current Nylander money (while Nylander is looking to cash in this summer and will make more than Boeser. 

The rest of our guys, Mik, Kuz are making tyler Bertuzzi money. 

 

Lastly, Reilly is making quinn Hughes money. 

 

Funny how the hockey capital of the world has to overpay their players to keep them. What good is Tavares wanting to come home when he takes up 11m cap space? 

 

We have our core players signed to better contracts and our core players are better than theirs. 

 

If one of our core guys wants to get paid at the expense of team success, we will ship him out (a la Horvat). I think that's the true difference. JR and PA have made better decisions in terms of contracts and pro scouting. This will allow us to add/buy. 

 

As @Bob Long stated, we are pretty close to what we want in a finished roster. Our Core is young and still improving. 

We are missing one more solid top 4 D man, and maybe an upgrade at a forward position.

Our bottom 6 has also looked really good. 

I would be fine going into the playoffs with

 

PDG Miller Boeser 

Kuz Petey Mik 

Garland Suter Joshua

Hogz Bleuger Lafferty

Beau

 

Hughes Hronek 

Top4D Cole 

Myers Soucy 

Friedman

 

Demko

DeSmith 

 

We have Lekkermaki, Willander Raty Podz simmering.... 

 

We then have a bunch of B prospects that can still make the show

Karlsson, Hirose, Mcward, Wolanin, Bains 

 

I actually think we can afford to buy a top 4 D this year and see how deep we can go. Playoffs will show us what we are lacking and management can then figure out next steps. 

 

My guess is that the issue might be size up front. 

 

Alf’s empties bow to this great post.

[AnthonyG]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Not arguing any of that. Gillis had a great club and was using young assets (picks and prospects) to get that elite core a Cup. Then, when he saw the window closing he went to the owner with a plan to rebuild. The owner fired Gillis and hired Benning. 
 

But Alf you’re missing the major part of being a successful organization. Its about extending the window to win. What separates good GMs from great GMs is their ability to continue extending the window while contending/competing. Any GM could do Gillis’s job with the roster he was given and have nearly the same success. But to have that success AND continue competing as one era winds down and another begins… thats Tampa, Pittsburgh, Washington, St. Louis, LA etc. These teams have been contending for over a decade. Go look at how few years STL and Boston have missed playoffs, it’s ridiculous.

 

imagine this.. the twins dont retire in 2017-18 And played til they were 40.

Benning would have supplied them legit talent that would have given them hope in their final years

Boeser

Pettersson

Miller

Hughes

just those 4 alone would have played ahead of them and the twins would have been on the 2nd line for 3 years more. That would be considered “extending” the window. Unfortunately they retired and a new window began to open slowly

 

 

we had to rebuild because Gillis fucked it up so bad

Edited November 21, 2023 by AnthonyG

[stawns]

15 minutes ago, Breadnbutta said:

I'm not sure about that. JB left this team a mess.

 

Sure the last regime inherited aging past their prime stars and these guys had young upcoming stars but these guys were ruthless.

 

Trade the captain, hang the coach out to dry, Trade a first for a top d man.

They are aggressive. It took balls to buy out OEL.

 

Benning would not be this successful if he inherited this team.

 

And honestly from finishing in the bottom of the league for so long we should have good young players. That's the cycle.

 

The previous regime was horrid regardless of situation.

did he?  Pretty sure that, aside from Hronek, the impact players on this team are all JB guys

[AnthonyG]

11 minutes ago, Breadnbutta said:

I'm not sure about that. JB left this team a mess.

 

Sure the last regime inherited aging past their prime stars and these guys had young upcoming stars but these guys were ruthless.

 

Trade the captain, hang the coach out to dry, Trade a first for a top d man.

They are aggressive. It took balls to buy out OEL.

 

Benning would not be this successful if he inherited this team.

 

And honestly from finishing in the bottom of the league for so long we should have good young players. That's the cycle.

 

The previous regime was horrid regardless of situation.

Lets call a spade a spade

Benning was here to rebuild and that was it. He was given an extension out of respect for what he accomplished rebuilding and given a chance to see his works potential. I do not disagree with change, it was time for a new face a new set of eyes. Ultimately the potential was always there from what JB put together. We are now seeing the potential, well maybe you guys are just now seeing it, I’ve been talking about it for 3 years. It just took some time for development and for players to find their way and grow and gain experience. This team was fully capable of playoffs in 2020-21, 2021-22 and 2022-23 without a single fucking doubt. Had they had no COVID destroy them, an INSANE schedule of 19 games in 30 days which everyone was in shock about and didnt even pay attention to the fact they started that season with 18 games in 30 days AND lost Petey for over half a season. 2021-22 Pettersson let us down with a horrendous first half. Once he caught fire this team was the top team the last HALF of the season, thats no joke thats 2011-12 LAK shit right there or STL or OTT. 2022-23 goaltending was too much to overcome. Had these major issues been more of a minor or medium concern, we would have made playoffs in every single one of those seasons when you look at the numbers.

[stawns]

7 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

But Alf you’re missing the major part of being a successful organization. Its about extending the window to win. What separates good GMs from great GMs is their ability to continue extending the window while contending/competing. Any GM could do Gillis’s job with the roster he was given and have nearly the same success. But to have that success AND continue competing as one era winds down and another begins… thats Tampa, Pittsburgh, Washington, St. Louis, LA etc. These teams have been contending for over a decade. Go look at how few years STL and Boston have missed playoffs, it’s ridiculous.

 

imagine this.. the twins dont retire in 2017-18 And played til they were 40.

Benning would have supplied them legit talent that would have given them hope in their final years

Boeser

Pettersson

Miller

Hughes

just those 4 alone would have played ahead of them and the twins would have been on the 2nd line for 3 years more. That would be considered “extending” the window. Unfortunately they retired and a new window began to open slowly

 

 

we had to rebuild because Gillis fucked it up so bad

 

 

Gillis saw a team that was close and went for it and depleted the cupboards and made it almost impossible to get any value to the guys he signed due to NTC/NMC so they'd come a little cheaper.  And now that there's some prospect and organizational depth and the team has a little whiff of success, people are foaming at the mouth to follow the same road as Gillis did, but with a less talented team, overall.  People seem to forget how bad it was after the miss from 2011

[Rip The Mesh]

38 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Honestly that was just unfortunate timing and his follow through showed little intent to injure, moreso just tried to get a piece of him and get him against the boards. As soon as he begins to reach out, Garland turns his hips and goes from taking the cross check on the side of the hip to the backside of the hip which caused him to immediately toe pick and go head first. 

The way I saw it, The Hog should have been given a double Minor and that's it. When it was happening, take a look at Hog's expression. Didn't look like 

intent to me. Didn't look like: Take that! sucker!. Rick (admittedly), didn't really see much. 

Nils was having a pretty good game on the fourth line. This guy could easily be a third liner and in a pinch, take the place on a second line in there were injuries.

He'll now have a record and be watched closely for years. A shame really.

 

Looks more like it was going to be a pushing match that went down hard. Look close enough; Who was trying to instigate it? I say both.

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Rip The Mesh

[conquestofbaguettes]

31 minutes ago, Breadnbutta said:

JB left this team a mess.

Not exactly.  They drafted the core they needed. They got the hardest part out of the way.

 

I'd say the unforeseeable pandemic and flat cap hurt them more than anything in that regard.

 

Afterall, the new regime refused to "blow it up" for good reason. As Jim Rutherford stated, "we have a lot of good players here."

 

Rutherford even stated that a lot of the cap problems around the league were based on deals made thinking the cap was going to keep going up and up and he would have done the same thing if it we're him in that same seat.

 

31 minutes ago, Breadnbutta said:

Benning would not be this successful if he inherited this team.

 

Wouldn't be sure about that.  Like I said. The heavy lifting was already done. Taking a core of superstars to the next level acquiring, developing supporting cast and depth is the easy part.

 

But speaking of OEL, fun fact: He has 5 goals and 6 assists in 18 games this year. Looks like he has, in fact, bounced back as Tocchet and management thought he would. His buyout was more a product of economic necessity to improve the team in other areas rather some bold play (especially since they couldn't find takers for Garland, Myers or whoever else they wanted to move.)

 

31 minutes ago, Breadnbutta said:

The previous regime was horrid regardless of situation

 

That's not exacty true. And there's much more to story than that anyway.

 

Having said that I like the work Jim and Patrick have done.

Edited November 21, 2023 by conquestofbaguettes

[conquestofbaguettes]

12 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Lets call a spade a spade

Benning was here to rebuild and that was it. He was given an extension out of respect for what he accomplished rebuilding and given a chance to see his works potential. I do not disagree with change, it was time for a new face a new set of eyes. Ultimately the potential was always there from what JB put together. We are now seeing the potential, well maybe you guys are just now seeing it, I’ve been talking about it for 3 years. It just took some time for development and for players to find their way and grow and gain experience. This team was fully capable of playoffs in 2020-21, 2021-22 and 2022-23 without a single fucking doubt. Had they had no COVID destroy them, an INSANE schedule of 19 games in 30 days which everyone was in shock about and didnt even pay attention to the fact they started that season with 18 games in 30 days AND lost Petey for over half a season. 2021-22 Pettersson let us down with a horrendous first half. Once he caught fire this team was the top team the last HALF of the season, thats no joke thats 2011-12 LAK shit right there or STL or OTT. 2022-23 goaltending was too much to overcome. Had these major issues been more of a minor or medium concern, we would have made playoffs in every single one of those seasons when you look at the numbers.

This right here.

 

[PhillipBlunt]

2 hours ago, Rekker said:

Lol. New York Post = National Enquirer.

Nearly every newspaper on the planet is a rag these days. Journalistic integrity is seemingly a thing of the past. 

[Mikeyman109]

9 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

 

Sounds like JT is having lots of fun. 

Just watched the Mcdavid post game interview after tonight's loss. What a stark contrast. So depressing. No way he stays in edm after his contract is finished. 

Edmonton is such a crap hole. No redeeming reason to stay in Edmonton if hockey is terrible too. 

Reminds me how bad it was here even just last season around this time of year. Man things changed quickly. 

Mc David is part of the problem in Edmonton, He think his 150 points are more important than the teams success. He doesnt work to back check and this sets a bad example for the rest of the team 29 is bad at it as well. Look at Petey work his butt off to back check. Thats what a team guy does. 97 wil have the same issues anywhere else.

[Bob Long]

12 minutes ago, Rip The Mesh said:

The way I saw it, The Hog should have been given a double Minor and that's it. When it was happening, take a look at Hog's expression. Didn't look like 

intent to me. Didn't look like: Take that! sucker!. Rick (admittedly), didn't really see much. 

Nils was having a pretty good game on the fourth line. This guy could easily be a third liner and in a pinch, take the place on a second line in there were injuries.

He'll now have a record and be watched closely for years. A shame really.

 

All because of how the refs mismanaged that game. They let it get frustrated.

[AmyTheGma]

39 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

 

 

Toronto is in a slightly different situation because they are paying Marner, Tavares and Matthews 11m+ each. 

Miller is our better version of Tavares and we have him locked @ 8m

Petey will prob make 10.5m+ so we can say that's a wash with Marner yet Petey is the  better player. 

 

We then don't have a 3rd guy making 11.5m in Matthews. 

Boeser is next making current Nylander money (while Nylander is looking to cash in this summer and will make more than Boeser. 

The rest of our guys, Mik, Kuz are making tyler Bertuzzi money. 

 

Lastly, Reilly is making quinn Hughes money. 

 

Funny how the hockey capital of the world has to overpay their players to keep them. What good is Tavares wanting to come home when he takes up 11m cap space? 

 

We have our core players signed to better contracts and our core players are better than theirs. 

 

If one of our core guys wants to get paid at the expense of team success, we will ship him out (a la Horvat). I think that's the true difference. JR and PA have made better decisions in terms of contracts and pro scouting. This will allow us to add/buy. 

 

As @Bob Long stated, we are pretty close to what we want in a finished roster. Our Core is young and still improving. 

We are missing one more solid top 4 D man, and maybe an upgrade at a forward position.

Our bottom 6 has also looked really good. 

I would be fine going into the playoffs with

 

PDG Miller Boeser 

Kuz Petey Mik 

Garland Suter Joshua

Hogz Bleuger Lafferty

Beau

 

Hughes Hronek 

Top4D Cole 

Myers Soucy 

Friedman

 

Demko

DeSmith 

 

We have Lekkermaki, Willander Raty Podz simmering.... 

 

We then have a bunch of B prospects that can still make the show

Karlsson, Hirose, Mcward, Wolanin, Bains 

 

I actually think we can afford to buy a top 4 D this year and see how deep we can go. Playoffs will show us what we are lacking and management can then figure out next steps. 

 

My guess is that the issue might be size up front. 

 

Very nice insight there.  I suspect they trade Beau off in a separate trade for like a 5th just to clear cap and then sign Bear and leave enough cap to go after a real d at the deadline when the cap hits are far less.  Probably use next years 1st and one of the prospects to bring that in.

[CanucksJay]

16 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Lets call a spade a spade

Benning was here to rebuild and that was it. He was given an extension out of respect for what he accomplished rebuilding and given a chance to see his works potential. I do not disagree with change, it was time for a new face a new set of eyes. Ultimately the potential was always there from what JB put together. We are now seeing the potential, well maybe you guys are just now seeing it, I’ve been talking about it for 3 years. It just took some time for development and for players to find their way and grow and gain experience. This team was fully capable of playoffs in 2020-21, 2021-22 and 2022-23 without a single fucking doubt. Had they had no COVID destroy them, an INSANE schedule of 19 games in 30 days which everyone was in shock about and didnt even pay attention to the fact they started that season with 18 games in 30 days AND lost Petey for over half a season. 2021-22 Pettersson let us down with a horrendous first half. Once he caught fire this team was the top team the last HALF of the season, thats no joke thats 2011-12 LAK shit right there or STL or OTT. 2022-23 goaltending was too much to overcome. Had these major issues been more of a minor or medium concern, we would have made playoffs in every single one of those seasons when you look at the numbers.

 

There's no doubt Benning's fingerprints are all over the core. 

I was a huge Benning supporter. What I see now though after watching the success of this team is that while Benning was amazing at drafts, he lacked a lot of other front office skillset. 

 

It was very apparent quickly to JR and PA that this team lacked structure and coaching was a big issue. 

 

We also beefed up the management team and our pro scouting has had the Midas touch. 

 

Seeing Benning's other pro signings makes me question whether he would have made the same moves that this regime has made (and been successful) 

 

Maybe we got the best of both worlds. We had amazing drafting with Benning and now, this front office is turning that core and turning it into a high calibre team through trades, FA and other management decisions like staffing. 

 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, conquestofbaguettes said:

 

Supporting cast, depth, prospect pool.

 

This regime has a far easier job than the last one. That's for fucking sure.

 

We had an empty farm system at the start of this current management team.  Certainly no better than the one Benning inherited.  And that's after years of drafting in a significantly higher drafting position(s).

 

Our Canadian amateur scouting still sucked as bad as under previous regimes.  The "home run" hits in the draft were from our international amateur scouts largely.

Edited November 21, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[DrJockitch]

25 minutes ago, Rip The Mesh said:

The way I saw it, The Hog should have been given a double Minor and that's it. When it was happening, take a look at Hog's expression. Didn't look like 

intent to me. Didn't look like: Take that! sucker!. Rick (admittedly), didn't really see much. 

Nils was having a pretty good game on the fourth line. This guy could easily be a third liner and in a pinch, take the place on a second line in there were injuries.

He'll now have a record and be watched closely for years. A shame really.

 

Looks more like it was going to be a pushing match that went down hard. Look close enough; Who was trying to instigate it? I say both.

 

Yeah it happened in the flow of a board battle but a slew foot is a slew foot and is automatic match penalty. Do I think was intent to injure no but a slew foot is a slew foot. 
Right call but should be no supplemental discipline. I think he falls on him in the end because off balance, not trying to drive him into ice or anything. 
(Slew foot-just had to say it one more time)

[Stierlitz]

 

[AnthonyG]

3 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

 

There's no doubt Benning's fingerprints are all over the core. 

I was a huge Benning supporter. What I see now though after watching the success of this team is that while Benning was amazing at drafts, he lacked a lot of other front office skillset. 

 

It was very apparent quickly to JR and PA that this team lacked structure and coaching was a big issue. 

 

We also beefed up the management team and our pro scouting has had the Midas touch. 

 

Seeing Benning's other pro signings makes me question whether he would have made the same moves that this regime has made (and been successful) 

 

Maybe we got the best of both worlds. We had amazing drafting with Benning and now, this front office is turning that core and turning it into a high calibre team through trades, FA and other management decisions like staffing. 

 

And you know what I wouldnt entirely disagree that maybe Benning might not have had the same signings that would have made the impact that JR/PA have. My biggest beef is with the thankless fans that continue to believe that Benning did more harm than good and that this organization is an absolute mess and we’re fucked for years to come. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

I’ve said it many times, I would compare JBs impact to that of Burke and Nonis and PA is Gillis. We all know how that panned out for a period of time. This time lets hope the window doesnt close and we achieve the ultimate goal. We have a Quinn Hughes this time around… I feel a cup is within reach

[PhillipBlunt]

4 minutes ago, Stierlitz said:

 

I guess only Marchand is allowed to slew foot and not be punished for it.