Hughes vs Makar -- Battle of the Titans

[Optimist Prime]

Walk away from the knife fight: i am only takin one of ya. 

[Rekker]

25 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

Morgan Rielly and the Leafs, who have proceeded to win games with or without him in the lineup.

Look up the Leafs all time stats with Rielly in the lineup. Look it up, post it, wins vs losses. Then explain to me how the Leafs are better with Reilly in the lineup.

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

Walk away from the knife fight: i am only takin one of ya. 

I'm done here.

[Rekker]

2 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

You literally requested I find anyone who supported my opinion.  I provided Rekker as an example.  You then claimed he didn't say what I stated he did, and then I provided proof.    Why in holy hell would I continue this conversation when you have no interest in a civilized debate?  I'm sorry reading comprehension seems to difficult for you, but that doesn't give you the right to speak for everyone, which you seem to insist on doing for myself, Alf, anyone in the political threads.  You are not the only person entitled to an opinion on here.  Did I think Hughes should have started in the AHL?  Yes.  Was I wrong?  Also  yes.  I can admit when I was wrong; you should try that some time.

It's pointless. It's like debating with a laptop. Every once in awhile I get pulled in and then I kick myself for it.

[Optimist Prime]

the debate is fine, whatever it is, not reading back, but leave the personal insults, digs, jabs and upper cuts out of it. Thank you.

[Miss Korea]

5 minutes ago, Rekker said:

Look up the Leafs all time stats with Rielly in the lineup. Look it up, post it, wins vs losses. Then explain to me how the Leafs are better with Reilly in the lineup.

 

Look at the Canucks all-time record with or without Nils Aman in the lineup.  What is your point?  Do the Leafs not have 19 other skaters out on the ice?  You think this is the NBA?

 

Here are some numbers for you.  The Leafs?  They went 5-0 without Rielly, and then have since gone 7-3 after his return.  Are you going to try and tell me that the Leafs would have a 15-0 record if Rielly was kept off the team?  Are you really going to make that claim?  One player preventing them from going 15-0?

[King Heffy]

6 minutes ago, Rekker said:

It's pointless. It's like debating with a laptop. Every once in awhile I get pulled in and then I kick myself for it.

Sorry I tagged you.

[Elias Pettersson]

On 3/14/2024 at 12:29 PM, Miss Korea said:

 

Where the hell did Makar go on this list?  I know he's lost step since coming back from that injury in January, but... seriously - where is he?

 

NHL awards watch: McDavid, Matthews, MacKinnon and the battle for the Hart - The Athletic (archive.ph)

 

Quinn Hughes remains the man to beat, a position he’s enjoyed for almost the entire season. His 76 points in 66 games is an excellent mark and is backed by strong five-on-five play at both ends of the ice. He should have the Norris Trophy locked up.

 

That’s aided by the fact his strongest competition for the award is nowhere to be seen here, a product of the many red flags in Cale Makar’s game this season. Makar has a boatload of points and will get votes on that alone, but if a defenseman with any other name had his usage and subsequent on-ice results, his season would be looked at differently. 

 

Makar remains the best defenseman in the league in my books, but he hasn’t looked right since a brief injury in December. The Colorado Avalanche have scored more goals and earned more chances without Makar on the ice this year. And that’s despite playing 69 percent of his minutes with MacKinnon and starting twice as many shifts in the offensive zone as the defensive zone. With Devon Toews as his partner, there may not be an easier situation in the league, and to only earn 54 percent of the goals and expected goals is way below what Makar should expect in that role. His relative metrics are substantially worse than every defender listed, mostly due to unusually weaker defense this season. That puts him on the outskirts of the top 10 for Net Rating. 

 

That’s not to say Net Rating is the be-all, end-all — but it is to say I don’t believe Makar and Hughes are close this year. The reasons Hughes wasn’t a strong Norris contender despite his point totals in past years apply to Makar this year. To Makar’s credit, he’s been significantly better over the last couple of weeks. Whatever was ailing him may be behind him. 

 

I’d still consider Makar for my ballot, but there are plenty of other defenders in the mix with stronger results this season who are worth considering. 

 

Evan Bouchard has extremely similar usage to Makar in that he also plays a lot with a Hart Trophy contender — only he has the on-ice numbers to back it up. The Oilers, and McDavid, perform substantially better with him on the ice. Roman Josi doesn’t have nearly the same teammate support as almost anyone on this list but continues to put the Nashville Predators on his back. He has the most primary points of any defenseman (44) with some strong impacts at five-on-five. 

 

Then there’s Gustav Forsling, who has been a defensive rock for the Panthers. Adam Fox is once again a two-way animal for the Rangers. Josh Morrissey is living up to his nickname again this season. Noah Dobson has had a huge breakout and is getting big results.

 

The standard has been raised this season, set by Hughes at the top. With one month left, Makar is lagging behind and doesn’t have much time to make up ground.

[HKSR]

14 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

NHL awards watch: McDavid, Matthews, MacKinnon and the battle for the Hart - The Athletic (archive.ph)

 

Quinn Hughes remains the man to beat, a position he’s enjoyed for almost the entire season. His 76 points in 66 games is an excellent mark and is backed by strong five-on-five play at both ends of the ice. He should have the Norris Trophy locked up.

 

That’s aided by the fact his strongest competition for the award is nowhere to be seen here, a product of the many red flags in Cale Makar’s game this season. Makar has a boatload of points and will get votes on that alone, but if a defenseman with any other name had his usage and subsequent on-ice results, his season would be looked at differently. 

 

Makar remains the best defenseman in the league in my books, but he hasn’t looked right since a brief injury in December. The Colorado Avalanche have scored more goals and earned more chances without Makar on the ice this year. And that’s despite playing 69 percent of his minutes with MacKinnon and starting twice as many shifts in the offensive zone as the defensive zone. With Devon Toews as his partner, there may not be an easier situation in the league, and to only earn 54 percent of the goals and expected goals is way below what Makar should expect in that role. His relative metrics are substantially worse than every defender listed, mostly due to unusually weaker defense this season. That puts him on the outskirts of the top 10 for Net Rating. 

 

That’s not to say Net Rating is the be-all, end-all — but it is to say I don’t believe Makar and Hughes are close this year. The reasons Hughes wasn’t a strong Norris contender despite his point totals in past years apply to Makar this year. To Makar’s credit, he’s been significantly better over the last couple of weeks. Whatever was ailing him may be behind him. 

 

I’d still consider Makar for my ballot, but there are plenty of other defenders in the mix with stronger results this season who are worth considering. 

 

Evan Bouchard has extremely similar usage to Makar in that he also plays a lot with a Hart Trophy contender — only he has the on-ice numbers to back it up. The Oilers, and McDavid, perform substantially better with him on the ice. Roman Josi doesn’t have nearly the same teammate support as almost anyone on this list but continues to put the Nashville Predators on his back. He has the most primary points of any defenseman (44) with some strong impacts at five-on-five. 

 

Then there’s Gustav Forsling, who has been a defensive rock for the Panthers. Adam Fox is once again a two-way animal for the Rangers. Josh Morrissey is living up to his nickname again this season. Noah Dobson has had a huge breakout and is getting big results.

 

The standard has been raised this season, set by Hughes at the top. With one month left, Makar is lagging behind and doesn’t have much time to make up ground.

Will certainly be interesting to see how the votes roll in for the Norris.  Will the voters look at advanced stats? or will they just go with the historically easy selection? 

Would be really cool to FINALLY have a Norris winner amongst our core.

[Elias Pettersson]

15 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Will certainly be interesting to see how the votes roll in for the Norris.  Will the voters look at advanced stats? or will they just go with the historically easy selection? 

Would be really cool to FINALLY have a Norris winner amongst our core.

 

I am sure Makar will still be a finalist based on reputation.  My prediction is Hughes, Makar and Dobson will be the finalists and Hughes will win it...

[Miss Korea]

40 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Will certainly be interesting to see how the votes roll in for the Norris.  Will the voters look at advanced stats? or will they just go with the historically easy selection? 

Would be really cool to FINALLY have a Norris winner amongst our core.

 

24 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I am sure Makar will still be a finalist based on reputation.  My prediction is Hughes, Makar and Dobson will be the finalists and Hughes will win it...

 

You need Heiskanen in the discussion.  I really don't think Makar deserves a nomination this year.

 

Here's our boy:

 

[Miss Korea]

And here are some of the other contenders:

 

  

 

 

Edited March 18 by Miss Korea

[Diamonds]

1 hour ago, Miss Korea said:

 

 

You need Heiskanen in the discussion.  I really don't think Makar deserves a nomination this year.

 

Here's our boy:

 

Heiskanen is a fantastic defenseman and definitely part of the elite group of 23-26 year-olds that are taking over the league. However I don't think his production has been high enough to be a finalist this year when there are 7 defensemen currently around a PPG or higher. He will almost certainly be in the top ten though.

 

I'm really hoping Dobson is a finalist. He's had an incredible year and is really driving the Islanders. Also can't count out Hedman who has had a return to form after an off year last season.

[Miss Korea]

40 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

Heiskanen is a fantastic defenseman and definitely part of the elite group of 23-26 year-olds that are taking over the league. However I don't think his production has been high enough to be a finalist this year when there are 7 defensemen currently around a PPG or higher. He will almost certainly be in the top ten though.

 

I'm really hoping Dobson is a finalist. He's had an incredible year and is really driving the Islanders. Also can't count out Hedman who has had a return to form after an off year last season.

 

I think he's the most efficient two-way defenceman in the league.

 

On 3/11/2024 at 11:41 AM, Miss Korea said:

 

Yeah, Dahlin is a more offensive defenceman who relies on his skills and creativity to generate offence.  Which is totally fine, by the way - his playing style is extremely similar to Roman Josi.  I'd go as far as to say Dahlin is the most creative defenceman in the league.  Not the best, but certainly the most creative.

 

Miro Heiskanen is the human anti-highlight reel.  His playing style is quite boring to watch because he is never trying to force a play with a body check or a clever deke.  His game is all about efficiency - making the best possible play with the least amount of effort.  The result is a guy who negates opponents with simple stick plays and then moves the puck offensively with short, crisp passes.  Hughes/Fox don't play like that (he likes to pull opponents with his skating).  Makar doesn't play like that (he prefers to burst by opponents like McDavid).

 

 

 

[Diamonds]

4 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

I think he's the most efficient two-way defenceman in the league.

 

I don't disagree, but there tends to be a pretty heavy bias towards points in the Norris voting. As much as Makar has had an off year he still is over 1PPG and will probably be a finalist based on reputation. Then you have Dobson at 1PPG who also has a strong two-way game, a resurgent Hedman who has the reputation and is at 1PPG plus still averaging ~2:30/game on the PK, and Josi is also at 1PPG again.

 

Hughes should be a lock to be a finalist and should win it, but it's actually a pretty stacked year for the Norris.

[HKSR]

Tied in points.  Is Hughes still gonna win the Norris? What say you?

[Wilbur]

53 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Tied in points.  Is Hughes still gonna win the Norris? What say you?

I say yes.

[DeNiro]

1 hour ago, HKSR said:

Tied in points.  Is Hughes still gonna win the Norris? What say you?

NHL website has Hughes ahead by one.

 

If you dive into the stats deeper you can see Makar is benefiting big time from Mackinnon. His numbers away from him are pretty poor.

 

 

Edited April 1 by DeNiro

[Coconuts]

19 hours ago, HKSR said:

Tied in points.  Is Hughes still gonna win the Norris? What say you?

 

I think he should, but I honestly wouldn't be upset if Josi won it, he's the D who's done the most for his team this season imo 

 

I think the Canucks make the playoffs with Hughes production being lesser, I wouldn't say the same for Nashville 

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see Makar get it again based on reputation if the point totals continue to stay close though

[Bob Long]

Hughes has certainly earned it, but the hockey hacks will give it to the kid named after a salad no one really likes. 

[Miss Korea]

On 3/31/2024 at 7:41 PM, DeNiro said:

NHL website has Hughes ahead by one.

 

If you dive into the stats deeper you can see Makar is benefiting big time from Mackinnon. His numbers away from him are pretty poor.

 

He's been rushed back from injury and struggled most of the year because of it.  But he seems fully fit now and will probably look like vintage Cale in the playoffs.  Uh oh.

 

6 hours ago, Coconuts said:

 

I think he should, but I honestly wouldn't be upset if Josi won it, he's the D who's done the most for his team this season imo 

 

I think the Canucks make the playoffs with Hughes production being lesser, I wouldn't say the same for Nashville 

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see Makar get it again based on reputation if the point totals continue to stay close though

 

Perception is very important in voting.  And the fact is that Quinn Hughes is being perceived as the best defenceman this year.  Articles after articles written about him and the Canucks.  When some Toronto guy writes about Vancouver, it's about #43.  When that same guy writes about Colorado.... the discussion is completely about Nate MacKinnon. 

 

Because there is so much media attention on #29 and the Art Ross race, he is actually taking attention away from Makar.  Nobody on the Canucks is taking attention away from Quinn Hughes.  Hockey media are labelling him and only him as the one who transformed his game to a new dimension and turned the team into a juggernaut.  Before anyone tries to say "J.T. Miller", a lot of that is coming from local writers.  Rest assured the random beat writer from Florida or Anaheim will be happy to place their vote for Quinn Hughes.

 

6 hours ago, Bob Long said:

Hughes has certainly earned it, but the hockey hacks will give it to the kid named after a salad no one really likes. 

 

[-dlc-]

 

[Slegr]

 

One major concern about Hughes' ability to win the Norris is the mass amount of eastern media who have votes and who seem to get pleasure in ignoring Vancouver's achievements.

The front page headline on Sportsnet Hockey website this morning is a story about sneak peak at NHL Award votes, but Toronto homer Luke Fox, who, like many in Toronto, does not like seeing other Canadian teams do better than the Leafs.

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/quick-shifts-shhh-heres-a-sneak-peek-at-nhl-awards-votes/

 

Here is his vote on the Norris Trophy:

 

Norris Trophy: Roman Josi.

I agree with Jon Cooper, who said Wednesday that Josi "has willed his team to the spot they're in." That would be the playoffs. Nothing wrong with a first-place vote for Quinn Hughes or Cale Makar or even Victor Hedman, but Josi's elevation when the games have mattered most is swaying my ballot.

 

Luke Fox then pastes this Twitter / X garbage stat:

 

#NHL Primary P/60 for defensemen (min 1000 mins):
1. Josi: 1.775 #Preds
2. Makar: 1.557 #GoAvsGo
3. Hedman: 1.473 #GoBolts
4. Fox: 1.470
5. Bouchard: 1.428
6. Q Hughes: 1.428
7. Dobson: 1.396
8. Dunn: 1.358
9. Rielly: 1.318
10. Dahlin: 1.239

 

So if people like Luke Fox in Toronto get to give votes, and this is where their minds are at, to avoid recognizing Quinn Hughes' achievements this year.. what chance does Hughes really have?  We already witnessed the votes for Hart going to Auston Matthews in 2022 for his 60 goals, when McDavid had 123 points that year (compared to 106 from Matthews).  

 

 

Edited April 6 by Slegr

[Alflives]

Quinn Hughes is the best D man in the world. Have to be a moran to not accept that fact. 

[Bob Long]

25 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Quinn Hughes is the best D man in the world. Have to be a moran to not accept that fact. 

 

unfortunately many hockey writers are Morans. I fully expect the Norris to go to bad salad kid. 

 

But the fact is, we have an absolute stud of a defence man, which is more important than the award.