Tonight's game against the Avs is a statement game and a defining moment in the season. Are the Canucks Contenders or Pretenders?

[Ballisticsports]

5 minutes ago, Coryberg said:

I'd say.... its November!!! Calms your tats and chill. Lots of hockey left to figure it out.

 

Yeah, I'd rather have our record up to November than Alberta teams, who still struggle

[wai_lai416]

on the bright side we are in a playoff spot by us thanksgiving so statistically we are in a good spot.. on the down side if the teams below us win their game in hand we'll fall all the way down to 6th 2 points up on 7th but still a comfy lead on the 8th and the rest fighting for wc.

[DownUndaCanuck]

We're certainly pretenders, we've got a great set of stars but not great depth. Contenders have legit 3rd line players and bottom-4 defence. Ours is a bunch of overpaid young guys who showed promise once and got paid for it (Garland, Beauvillier) and AHLers.

 

It's a good start to how to construct a contender but we're far from it. The Avs demolished us without Landeskog. I know the schedule's been brutal for us but the wheels are certainly coming off a bit, with what, 3 out of 4 losses recently and another back-to-back upcoming.

[wai_lai416]

4 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

We're certainly pretenders, we've got a great set of stars but not great depth. Contenders have legit 3rd line players and bottom-4 defence. Ours is a bunch of overpaid young guys who showed promise once and got paid for it (Garland, Beauvillier) and AHLers.

 

It's a good start to how to construct a contender but we're far from it. The Avs demolished us without Landeskog. I know the schedule's been brutal for us but the wheels are certainly coming off a bit, with what, 3 out of 4 losses recently and another back-to-back upcoming.

it's been a great run but regardless what the fan thinks we are a pretender.. we have great players in Hronek Hughes Demko EP and Miller.. then we have some good players in boeser kuz mikheyev and to a lesser extend suter.. outside of that we are filled with players that on a contender might put on a bottom pairing 4th line/depth...

 

sure people here don't give a f about advance stats.. but we are one of the worse team defensively in giving up chances shots etc and shooting the lights out early on.. odd say it'll balance out as the season progress and it's starting to show.. we are no longer shooting the lights out.. and demko is back to earth with his high danger chance sv%.. as his last 5 games he's well below league average in the .7xx in high danger chance sv%... and we give up on averager 12-15 per game dating back to the beginning of the season.. so that works out to at least 3 per game a far cry from his .970 not too long ago. injury to the defence certainly doesn't help.. will be interesting to see what PA/JR decides to do or not to do with the defence till soucy is back which is prolly still another 4-5 weeks.

 

the next 3 out of 4 games is very winnable.. but at the same time we kinda suck against the krakens especially on the road.. and anaheim is playing good hockey.. so it's not even a guaranteed.. even the sharks game.. they probably want revenge on home ice after the embarassment last time and actually played us pretty well despite losing 3-1... personally my opinion is if we don't win the next 3 out of 4 against these inferior opponents.. we are in big trouble especially if PA decides to stand pact till the injured player returns. the schedule all of a sudden gets tough starting with vegas after the 4 games. 8 games coming up against teams that all made the playoff last season.

[DownUndaCanuck]

11 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

it's been a great run but regardless what the fan thinks we are a pretender.. we have great players in Hronek Hughes Demko EP and Miller.. then we have some good players in boeser kuz mikheyev and to a lesser extend suter.. outside of that we are filled with players that on a contender might put on a bottom pairing 4th line/depth...

 

sure people here don't give a f about advance stats.. but we are one of the worse team defensively in giving up chances shots etc and shooting the lights out early on.. odd say it'll balance out as the season progress and it's starting to show.. we are no longer shooting the lights out.. and demko is back to earth with his high danger chance sv%.. as his last 5 games he's well below league average in the .7xx in high danger chance sv%... and we give up on averager 12-15 per game dating back to the beginning of the season.. so that works out to at least 3 per game a far cry from his .970 not too long ago. injury to the defence certainly doesn't help.. will be interesting to see what PA/JR decides to do or not to do with the defence till soucy is back which is prolly still another 4-5 weeks.

 

the next 3 out of 4 games is very winnable.. but at the same time we kinda suck against the krakens especially on the road.. and anaheim is playing good hockey.. so it's not even a guaranteed.. even the sharks game.. they probably want revenge on home ice after the embarassment last time and actually played us pretty well despite losing 3-1... personally my opinion is if we don't win the next 3 out of 4 against these inferior opponents.. we are in big trouble especially if PA decides to stand pact till the injured player returns. the schedule all of a sudden gets tough starting with vegas after the 4 games. 8 games coming up against teams that all made the playoff last season.

 

Yep this is a huge stretch for us and we look tired out there, and our defence is wavering big time. I'd love for Allvin to go out and get us a defenceman but the flip side of that is to just stand pat, let us fall in the standings a bit here and work on more of a long-term project. Have us get used to winning, have us get used to getting out of ruts and see if we can't sort it out ourselves without sacrificing the future to build something more sustainable. 

 

I think a lot of it has to come from within but we are thin on the blueline. Our forward depth is helping from time to time but having 2 AHLers and one Myers on the blueline is trouble.

[-dlc-]

I don't do it this way...."a" game doesn't make a season. 

 

This team is working its way there....I mean, Av's lost 7-0 and 8-2 recently. Every game has different dynamics that can result in a win/loss.

[IBatch]

8 hours ago, CanuckFanForever said:

sorry bad example, that is what was called a Cinderella run

Wrong.   Also wrong about Demko, for now anyways.    As the OP.  Think you need to learn a bit more about King Richard, his WHA days, and what he did for that Canucks team on the way to the final.   Demko had his bubble ... that's 3 games, and is just entering legitimacy as a number one in this league this season, it's a fickle position, seen dozens of goalies come and go, not everyone can actually hold the number one spot for more then a couple seasons.

 

  Broduer achieved a lot, before he even became an NHL goalie, ask Biestra.     As for McLean, he was a Vezina finalist, and regularly won games for us.   Some of them pretty epic.  Ask the Habs fans, they absolutely peppered him one game, and showed their respect with a standing ovation.   Haven't seen that before or since.   McLean was seen as future Vezina winner back in 1989-1990.    Already seen as a top level goalie just getting started.  

 

Also the Canucks set records in 92/93, club ones, that likely won't ever be broken.   100 plus points back then, is easily like 110 plus points today.   It was considered, a fantastic season.  90 was considered good.  Loser points.  Canucks won the Smythe, and had some very stiff competition in LA and CAL.   We'd also already showed our mettle in the playoffs, going back to 1989, one of the best series this club ever had.    Despite losing.    In 92/93 (mostly different team to 1989) we were just getting started with that core, and already a top team league wide.   Dixon Ward and Dana Murzyn, shared the plus minus title for decades until Hank finally matched it.   Without checking think plus 34, and we scored I think 348 goals.   Yikes.    And the quality of players was very very high.   League hadn't bloated itself terribly yet, thanks to the Soviet Union dissolving and bringing in the best Europe had too , Nedved, Jagr, Larionov, Federov, Mogilny, Bure, Festisov, Markov ... it was arguably the best or most talent, the leagues ever had at one time.   Selanne.  Sundin.   Plus Gretzky still in his prime, Mario etc.   Love watching goalies save percentages go down to just above .900 again (think it was .903 last season).    Said it all the time, it's not that the quality of goaltending is better, it's that the leagues kind of blown for a couple decades trying to catch up to expansion, and well 6'4" versus 5''7", who's actually the better althele?  Vernon ugh.  Beezer, Broduer, Irbe, Richter, all had their moments despite size challenged.    Like to see Demko play 60 plus games, just once, then we can start adding him to the list.   And more playoff games too please. 

 

 1994 Nedved sat out and pouted.   That year we had some issues trying to figure out what to do about a second line center.    Linden switched to center thanks to Otto.   Same guy who kicked the puck in to beat us in OT game 7 1989.    And the Nedved trade, gave us a legit, solid top pairing D.   Plus Hedican!  Cinderella run based on the 1994 regular season yes, but not really when you think about some of those series we had, lost and won, previously.     Having a Linden, was like getting a free pass to the second round.   McLean in 1994, was still the high water mark as far as goaltending goes,  Broduer is probably second from the first run to the final.   Cloutier would be dead last.   It for sure wasn't a "fluke".   

 

To this day, we still haven't had a better playoff team either.    They beat some very good teams on the way to the final, starting with a contender, good team, contender and then the favourites.  

[stawns]

3 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

We're certainly pretenders, we've got a great set of stars but not great depth. Contenders have legit 3rd line players and bottom-4 defence. Ours is a bunch of overpaid young guys who showed promise once and got paid for it (Garland, Beauvillier) and AHLers.

 

It's a good start to how to construct a contender but we're far from it. The Avs demolished us without Landeskog. I know the schedule's been brutal for us but the wheels are certainly coming off a bit, with what, 3 out of 4 losses recently and another back-to-back upcoming.

I don't think I'd say they're pretenders, as they're still a playoff team this year, imo.  They're just not contenders yet, but on the right path

[IBatch]

27 minutes ago, stawns said:

I don't think I'd say they're pretenders, as they're still a playoff team this year, imo.  They're just not contenders yet, but on the right path

Yep.  Let's start with playoffs first.   A few years ago, NYI went to the final four twice in a row.   Nobody gave them contender status.   Our team could get that status, by making the playoffs and well going to the final this year. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by IBatch

[Wing]

Neither. One game doesn't define the team especially as it's just 20 games into the season. The only thing for certain is the team has taken a big step this yr.

 

The team is aiming for playoffs and that's the goal. They look to be better each game and find that consistency so they're prepared for the grind in post season. They're not thinking about winning 82 games. If the team has the mindset of some of the fanbase they're not going to get very far. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Wing

[Coconuts]

They're a team that should try making the playoffs 2-3 seasons in a row before start fancying themselves as contenders 

 

After the past decade they have a lot to prove, it's extremely unlikely they'll waltz back into the playoffs and run to a final

[Miss Korea]

2 hours ago, Wing said:

Neither. One game doesn't define the team especially as it's just 20 games into the season. The only thing for certain is the team has taken a big step this yr.

 

The team is aiming for playoffs and that's the goal. They look to be better each game and find that consistency so they're prepared for the grind in post season. They're not thinking about winning 82 games. If the team has the mindset of some of the fanbase they're not going to get very far. 

 

They are absolutely intent on winning every game possible.  Notice how some of the strongest teams last postseason are continuing to win regular season games this year.  Notice how other teams are now underperforming and are starting to get nervous.

 

Winning regular season games is literally the first and most important step to making the playoffs.  Half of the teams fail.  And when they fail, coaches get fired for it.  Management gets fired for it.  Players get traded and teams get blown up.

 

For a team like Vancouver, who has only qualified twice in the last decade, the mindset of "playoffs are all that matter" is ridiculous.  The teams that take the regular season seriously are the teams that deserve to be in the playoffs.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Coconuts said:

They're a team that should try making the playoffs 2-3 seasons in a row before start fancying themselves as contenders 

 

After the past decade they have a lot to prove, it's extremely unlikely they'll waltz back into the playoffs and run to a final

Yep.   They need playoff reps first. 

[Coconuts]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yep.   They need playoff reps first. 

 

Most teams who've won the cup the past decade have needed to fall short first. 

 

Vegas did repeatedly, as did Colorado. Tampa too. St. Louis, Washington, and Pittsburgh were all playoff regulars before breaking through. The Kings went out in the quarterfinals a couple years in a row before going on their first cup run. Chicago is the closest to coming out of nowhere, going out in the playoffs once before their first cup run, but they made the conference final the season before. 

 

Most cup winners don't come out of nowhere, they're teams who are in the playoff mix for a while. I refuse to take any contention talk seriously when it comes to the Canucks until they show they can be playoff regulars. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Coconuts

[IBatch]

9 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

Most teams who've won the cup the past decade have needed to fall short first. 

 

Vegas did repeatedly, as did Colorado. Tampa too. St. Louis, Washington, and Pittsburgh were all playoff regulars before breaking through. The Kings went out in the quarterfinals a couple years in a row before going on their first cup run. Chicago is the closest to coming out of nowhere, going out in the playoffs once before their first cup run, but they made the conference final the season before. 

 

Most cup winners don't come out of nowhere, they're teams who are in the playoff mix for a while. I refuse to take any contention talk seriously when it comes to the Canucks until they show they can be playoff regulars. 

Read the first sentence and can go further right away.  Most teams is virtually every team since expansion.  It's a ridiculous thing to expect to win before not learning what it's like in the second season first.   Not every team is as good in the post season, if that's the case we'd already have two cups as well.   Growing up with dynasties, they all had growing pains first.    And well sure 32 teams and St. Louis...didn't St. Louis make a record for consecutive playoff appearances, any pro sports, finally miss one (and yes I get all their different teams ... talk about playoff reps though!), that broke but they won a cup?   SJ could have won a cup.  So could have NSH.   Wasn't in the cards for them.    Our team needs likely at least this year to win the next.    And that's only IF, Allvin is making changes.   And soon. 
 

Edit:  The only caveat is, i've seen enough so-so to good regular season teams win a cup, or go to the final, to get that the way a team is built can make a difference.    Have no idea how our team is built based on a luck of the draw Bubble thing, although it a little encouraging.    Even our own team history is a lesson.  94 team at least won their next series,  like usual.  Those teams were actually built for the playoffs.  Miller leads the forward group by a country mile (that's at least double lol) in my books for forwards.     Until we see this team make the show for 2-3 years in a row and the results,  a cup is delusional talk really.    A fluke isn't what management, should be building towards.   False hope also shouldn't be sold to the fanbase, at least we aren't been fed that at all (Tochet and co). 

Edited November 23, 2023 by IBatch

[Rip The Mesh]

It doesn't matter who you are or how good you are or have been recently. Once you taste the excitement of playoff hockey, all you think of all year is getting

there again. I suppose in some ways that could be destructive if if isn't looking good in February. Over the years, one thing is certain. There are surprises..

[DSVII]

This group is gathering that chemistry and experience right now to be that contender, I don't think it's fair to say they are pretenders.

[Coconuts]

9 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Read the first sentence and can go further right away.  Most teams is virtually every team since expansion.  It's a ridiculous thing to expect to win before not learning what it's like in the second season first.   Not every team is as good in the post season, if that's the case we'd already have two cups as well.   Growing up with dynasties, they all had growing pains first.    And well sure 32 teams and St. Louis...didn't St. Louis make a record for consecutive playoff appearances, any pro sports, finally miss one (and yes I get all their different teams ... talk about playoff reps though!), that broke but they won a cup?   SJ could have won a cup.  So could have NSH.   Wasn't in the cards for them.    Our team needs likely at least this year to win the next.    And that's only IF, Allvin is making changes.   And soon. 

 

Agreed, Nucks need reps and they need consistent reps 

 

I wouldn't even talk about 19-20, we went on to miss three seasons in a row, and they'd missed the previous four seasons prior to 19-20

 

They need more experience, sustained experience 

 

They're off to a good start this season so hopefully it's the beginning of them getting some 

 

Canucks still have lots to prove, it's going to take time and some successful seasons for them to shift the narrative 

[Wing]

1 hour ago, Miss Korea said:

 

They are absolutely intent on winning every game possible.  Notice how some of the strongest teams last postseason are continuing to win regular season games this year.  Notice how other teams are now underperforming and are starting to get nervous.

 

Winning regular season games is literally the first and most important step to making the playoffs.  Half of the teams fail.  And when they fail, coaches get fired for it.  Management gets fired for it.  Players get traded and teams get blown up.

 

For a team like Vancouver, who has only qualified twice in the last decade, the mindset of "playoffs are all that matter" is ridiculous.  The teams that take the regular season seriously are the teams that deserve to be in the playoffs.

I guess I should rephrase when I said they're not trying to win every game. They SHOULD play like they're trying to win every game. But we all know this is not possible, for any team even as good as the defending cup championship. 

 

To me the losing in regular season is a learning process for a young team trying to maintain consistency. I don't get the immediate panic from some folks and they refuse to see that it's not necessarily a bad thing to go through adversity. We seemed to be clouded by the hot start and can't accept a loss. That's what's ridiculous to me. 

 

We all set our expectations differently as fans. Perhaps this team has been bad for over a decade no one has patience for a process anymore. 

 

 

 

 

 

[spook007]

9 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

We're certainly pretenders, we've got a great set of stars but not great depth. Contenders have legit 3rd line players and bottom-4 defence. Ours is a bunch of overpaid young guys who showed promise once and got paid for it (Garland, Beauvillier) and AHLers.

 

It's a good start to how to construct a contender but we're far from it. The Avs demolished us without Landeskog. I know the schedule's been brutal for us but the wheels are certainly coming off a bit, with what, 3 out of 4 losses recently and another back-to-back upcoming.

A bit surprised about the rant against our 3rd line players... Bar for a bit of puck luck, they have held their own, and several times during the last 3-4 games been if not the best, then close to the best of our lines...

 

Garland, Joshua, Suter/Bluger are an ok 3rd line.

 

PS. We still need a top 4 RHD and a Rugged winger hopefully with speed. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by spook007

[Nucker67]

If it's not about past seasons, then the Oilers are pretenders, just have to look at the standings. 

 

As for the Canucks I'm glad they have the coaching staff they do, because this could go downhill quick. 

 

Pettersson

Miller

Boeser

Hughes

Hronek

Demko

 

They need every core player to show up every game. When some don't, they lose. 

[Mike Vanderhoek]

I didn't find this to be a defining moment in the Canucks season or a statement game. Some nice storylines sure but the team played well and lost tonight.

 

The Canucks have played beyond expectations to start the season in many people's minds but they were never touted as contenders, not sure that automatically puts them at pretenders either. This is a team with some very good pieces that has bought in to the new coaching staff and their message. The team should be battling for a Playoff spot by end of year, if they continue to trend a slight tick above this and make the playoffs more handily that is great. Not a contending team, but a few moves can change that mind set. Once you get into the Playoffs anything can happen, so let's keep working on playing the game properly while winning along the way and see how things look end of season.

 

That difference this season that is a very positive development that gets brushed off or laughed off by many is the ability to enter games against teams they should beat and doing their job the majority of the time and winning those games they should. That is not to be taken lightly or the usual " ha they beat San Jose what do you expect? that team is the worst ". That is in fact the point, win the games you are supposed to. The Canucks for the most part are doing that.

[SV.]

A litmus test, but not a defining one.

Everybody saying that the Canucks need to become playoff regulars before thinking about the cup are bang on.

I guess the tricky part is factoring in that it gets rough after this season.  Key extensions, buy-out fallout, everchanging landscape of the teams around them.  Maybe some silver lining with the cap rising, but that only means that everybody else gets the same benefit.  So, does becoming regulars in the post-season even hold as much merit at that point?  Remains to be seen.

In a perfect world, this would be the start of a good period, but when you diagnose the situation, this year is probably the best out of any year to come, in the immediate present and immediate future, to actually do something.

Nevertheless, I'm happy to be here for the present.  The team is in a good place, and there's something to be said about embracing what you have.

[iinatcc]

Probably shows the Canucks are a pretty average team that benefited from a soft schedule early on. 

 

I would say there were pretenders only because they were top of the conference for about a day. 

 

I can imagine Vancouver sitting on the big boy desk only for Vegas for come back telling Vancouver to move along now 

 

[Kevin Biestra]

15 hours ago, IBatch said:

Wrong.   Also wrong about Demko, for now anyways.    As the OP.  Think you need to learn a bit more about King Richard, his WHA days, and what he did for that Canucks team on the way to the final.   Demko had his bubble ... that's 3 games, and is just entering legitimacy as a number one in this league this season, it's a fickle position, seen dozens of goalies come and go, not everyone can actually hold the number one spot for more then a couple seasons.

 

  Broduer achieved a lot, before he even became an NHL goalie, ask Biestra.     As for McLean, he was a Vezina finalist, and regularly won games for us.   Some of them pretty epic.  Ask the Habs fans, they absolutely peppered him one game, and showed their respect with a standing ovation.   Haven't seen that before or since.   McLean was seen as future Vezina winner back in 1989-1990.    Already seen as a top level goalie just getting started.  

 

Also the Canucks set records in 92/93, club ones, that likely won't ever be broken.   100 plus points back then, is easily like 110 plus points today.   It was considered, a fantastic season.  90 was considered good.  Loser points.  Canucks won the Smythe, and had some very stiff competition in LA and CAL.   We'd also already showed our mettle in the playoffs, going back to 1989, one of the best series this club ever had.    Despite losing.    In 92/93 (mostly different team to 1989) we were just getting started with that core, and already a top team league wide.   Dixon Ward and Dana Murzyn, shared the plus minus title for decades until Hank finally matched it.   Without checking think plus 34, and we scored I think 348 goals.   Yikes.    And the quality of players was very very high.   League hadn't bloated itself terribly yet, thanks to the Soviet Union dissolving and bringing in the best Europe had too , Nedved, Jagr, Larionov, Federov, Mogilny, Bure, Festisov, Markov ... it was arguably the best or most talent, the leagues ever had at one time.   Selanne.  Sundin.   Plus Gretzky still in his prime, Mario etc.   Love watching goalies save percentages go down to just above .900 again (think it was .903 last season).    Said it all the time, it's not that the quality of goaltending is better, it's that the leagues kind of blown for a couple decades trying to catch up to expansion, and well 6'4" versus 5''7", who's actually the better althele?  Vernon ugh.  Beezer, Broduer, Irbe, Richter, all had their moments despite size challenged.    Like to see Demko play 60 plus games, just once, then we can start adding him to the list.   And more playoff games too please. 

 

 1994 Nedved sat out and pouted.   That year we had some issues trying to figure out what to do about a second line center.    Linden switched to center thanks to Otto.   Same guy who kicked the puck in to beat us in OT game 7 1989.    And the Nedved trade, gave us a legit, solid top pairing D.   Plus Hedican!  Cinderella run based on the 1994 regular season yes, but not really when you think about some of those series we had, lost and won, previously.     Having a Linden, was like getting a free pass to the second round.   McLean in 1994, was still the high water mark as far as goaltending goes,  Broduer is probably second from the first run to the final.   Cloutier would be dead last.   It for sure wasn't a "fluke".   

 

To this day, we still haven't had a better playoff team either.    They beat some very good teams on the way to the final, starting with a contender, good team, contender and then the favourites.  

 

 

Long live the king.  Hey at least he acknowledged the King which is something.  Demko has a ways to go to catch up to King Richard and Captain Kirk...or Gary Smith for that matter.

 

That McLean game in Montreal in the early 90s was something else.  If I remember right Patrick Roy said (at the time) that it was or might have been the best game he had ever seen any goalie play.

 

A standing O from Montreal in enemy territory...that's Rocky 4 stuff.

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Kevin Biestra