[PGT] Canucks @ Avalanche Nov 22 2023

[Pure961089]

Some thoughts on the PK.  The additions of Cole, Soucy, Bluegar and Suter were supposed to make our PK better, and it has for the most part. This time last year the PK was historically bad.  But when RT took over last year the PK started looking really good and it wasn't because of the aforementioned it was because it was a threat to score, it was dangerous.  Petey and Miller made the opposition PP honest.  I'd like to see RT use Petey and Miller more on the PK.  It Just doesn't look dangerous anymore. 

[Ladyluck]

3 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

We'll regain our form. Life ebbs and flows. We're better than these losses. 

 

 

Trending downward the last 5 games. 
 

Injuries piling up. 

 

Certain players not performing at a high level. 
 

Going to be tough to right the ship and win consistently until Xmas. 

[Jaimito]

 

 

[JamesB]

8 hours ago, Frozen Water Walker said:

I like the take, except for Petey, his offencive play has ben hampered by alot of double teaming, but his defensive play has been outstanding.

 

Teams will now start to double team Miller that power move to the net for that goal was just sick, wow.

 

They can't double team both Petey and Miller so one of them is going to be scoring, that is some nice depth to have, that defensive depth is really quite poor.

I thought that maybe someone would say that my comments about Petey should be more critical, not the reverse. There has been a lot of talk about "what is wrong with Petey?" Here is a pretty good article: https://canucksarmy.com/news/whats-wrong-elias-pettersson-canucks-conversation. As noted in that article, Petey has 1 goal and 3 assists in his last 7 games -- not terrible but a long way his earlier performance. And he is -8 in plus/minus over that period.

 

Some of that is just bad luck (compared with a lot of good luck earlier in the season).

 

But, by the eye-test, he does not look as good as he did earlier.

 

There are lots of theories about minor injuries.

 

I don't understand the comment about double-teaming. If you are talking about 5-on-5 play, Miller has faced tougher competition. If you are talking about the PP, no-one gets double-teamed. Petey does draw a lot of attention, but so do Hughes and Miller.

 

I certainly hope Petey is 100% soon.

 

 

[Canuckleheads Fan]

26 minutes ago, JamesB said:

I thought that maybe someone would say that my comments about Petey should be more critical, not the reverse. There has been a lot of talk about "what is wrong with Petey?" Here is a pretty good article: https://canucksarmy.com/news/whats-wrong-elias-pettersson-canucks-conversation. As noted in that article, Petey has 1 goal and 3 assists in his last 7 games -- not terrible but a long way his earlier performance. And he is -8 in plus/minus over that period.

 

Some of that is just bad luck (compared with a lot of good luck earlier in the season).

 

But, by the eye-test, he does not look as good as he did earlier.

 

There are lots of theories about minor injuries.

 

I don't understand the comment about double-teaming. If you are talking about 5-on-5 play, Miller has faced tougher competition. If you are talking about the PP, no-one gets double-teamed. Petey does draw a lot of attention, but so do Hughes and Miller.

 

I certainly hope Petey is 100% soon.

 

 

There is definitely something wrong physically with Petey, I suspect two things, a hand/wrist again as his passing and shot are off, and a leg/hip/lower back because his skating is also not up to snuff. The other factor brought up earlier is that due to his hot start he's drawing more coverage from other team's shut down units, and he gets to play with QH an FH about half as often as the Miller line. Now because of the injury to Soucy, Petey has MORE defensive zone responsibility than he did when healthy. On top of that, Suter's injury means the top two lines are more responsible for offense because TB is at best a defensive center making his line an offensive zone bust. 

[wai_lai416]

14 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

I wonder if that's worth a try then. It might be enough to get Petey going. 

 

Looking at the game though,it looks like Hogz scored when Friedman and Cole were on their line. 

Ofcourse, they were playing against weaker opposition. 

Bleuger and Joshua also created opportunities playing with the bottom pairing. 

 

If Petey is commanding top 5 NHL money, what level of line mates does he need to produce against tough opposition? 

Is Soucy and Myers level good or does he also need star level D like Hughes Hronek? 

 

I almost feel like you pay superstars that type of money because they are supposed to be the guys that elevate their line and produce. 

Is there a site where you can check how many minutes Petey has spent with different players?

I do believe that with Hughes and Hronek playing almost 30 min, Petey would have spent sometime 5v5 with him as well as Cole and Myers. 

 

 

 

EP can only do so much to elevate his linemates. over the span of his career outside of miller and boeser for about 2 years 5v5. his linemates have been eriksson goldobin hoglander podkolzin bailey gaudette highmore virtanen dries, chiasson, lammiko beauvillier garland and a little more consistently kuzmenko and mikheyev. i think it's fair to say none of those have been a proven top 6 in their career. the best 2 being kuzmenko and mikheyev, kuz is new to the league and mikheyev was a 3rd liner in his career previously. the key to getting production is to balance your top 2 lines. right now it's stack everything on the miller line and expect EP to do everything by himself. 

 

you say you pay superstar that type of money they are suppose to be the guy that elevate their line and produce, but at the same time which superstar in the league doesn't play with another star player on his line forward or defence? like i'm not saying you need another 12million dollar player.. but we are talking about legit proven star players. you can check their minutes on natural stat trick. doesn't show individual games just an overall. i believe EP have played with hughes and hronek even less ever since the injury to our defence as they are forced to play even more against the top line on the other team.

[CanucksJay]

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

EP can only do so much to elevate his linemates. over the span of his career outside of miller and boeser for about 2 years 5v5. his linemates have been eriksson goldobin hoglander podkolzin bailey gaudette highmore virtanen dries, chiasson, lammiko beauvillier garland and a little more consistently kuzmenko and mikheyev. i think it's fair to say none of those have been a proven top 6 in their career. the best 2 being kuzmenko and mikheyev, kuz is new to the league and mikheyev was a 3rd liner in his career previously. the key to getting production is to balance your top 2 lines. right now it's stack everything on the miller line and expect EP to do everything by himself. 

 

you say you pay superstar that type of money they are suppose to be the guy that elevate their line and produce, but at the same time which superstar in the league doesn't play with another star player on his line forward or defence? like i'm not saying you need another 12million dollar player.. but we are talking about legit proven star players. you can check their minutes on natural stat trick. doesn't show individual games just an overall. i believe EP have played with hughes and hronek even less ever since the injury to our defence as they are forced to play even more against the top line on the other team.

 

Petey's previous linemates is a  moot point. We are talking about now and current production. Miller is playing with Boeser (6.65) and a league min guy in PDG (775k) while Petey is playing with Mik (4.95) and Kuz (5.5). That means Petey is playing with almost 3m more talent on his line. We didn't know how Boeser would bounce back but going into this season, it would be undeniable to say Petey was going into the season surrounded with better talent than Miller. We couldn't even give Boeser away for free last year. 

As a result, I would disagree that we are stacking everything for the Miller line when we talk about forwards because I think Petey actually has the better linemates. 

 

On defence, you may be right in that Miller line has better D partners. But Miller line is also going up against their best lines and their team's best defensemen. 

Petey is going up against their 2nd or 3rd line and their 2nd pairing defence. 

I think it's pretty simple. That line needs to play better and it starts with Petey. 

I am intrigued though. I wouldn't mind RT switching things up and having Petey go up against their top line and top D while giving him Hughes and Hronek. 

 

Personally, I think Petey will be fine. I don't think he needs better linemates or defence pairings. I think he's just in a slump (whether it's injuries or mental) and will play out of it. 

They guy is 6th in nhl scoring despite all this. 

 

 

 

 

[CanucksJay]

8 hours ago, JamesB said:

I thought that maybe someone would say that my comments about Petey should be more critical, not the reverse. There has been a lot of talk about "what is wrong with Petey?" Here is a pretty good article: https://canucksarmy.com/news/whats-wrong-elias-pettersson-canucks-conversation. As noted in that article, Petey has 1 goal and 3 assists in his last 7 games -- not terrible but a long way his earlier performance. And he is -8 in plus/minus over that period.

 

Some of that is just bad luck (compared with a lot of good luck earlier in the season).

 

But, by the eye-test, he does not look as good as he did earlier.

 

There are lots of theories about minor injuries.

 

I don't understand the comment about double-teaming. If you are talking about 5-on-5 play, Miller has faced tougher competition. If you are talking about the PP, no-one gets double-teamed. Petey does draw a lot of attention, but so do Hughes and Miller.

 

I certainly hope Petey is 100% soon.

 

 

I think he'll be fine. 

I agree with your take and think there's gotta be some sort of ailment bothering him. 

Once he's skating and shooting at 100 percent, he should be fine

[wai_lai416]

47 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

 

Petey's previous linemates is a  moot point. We are talking about now and current production. Miller is playing with Boeser (6.65) and a league min guy in PDG (775k) while Petey is playing with Mik (4.95) and Kuz (5.5). That means Petey is playing with almost 3m more talent on his line. We didn't know how Boeser would bounce back but going into this season, it would be undeniable to say Petey was going into the season surrounded with better talent than Miller. We couldn't even give Boeser away for free last year. 

As a result, I would disagree that we are stacking everything for the Miller line when we talk about forwards because I think Petey actually has the better linemates. 

 

On defence, you may be right in that Miller line has better D partners. But Miller line is also going up against their best lines and their team's best defensemen. 

Petey is going up against their 2nd or 3rd line and their 2nd pairing defence. 

I think it's pretty simple. That line needs to play better and it starts with Petey. 

I am intrigued though. I wouldn't mind RT switching things up and having Petey go up against their top line and top D while giving him Hughes and Hronek. 

 

Personally, I think Petey will be fine. I don't think he needs better linemates or defence pairings. I think he's just in a slump (whether it's injuries or mental) and will play out of it. 

They guy is 6th in nhl scoring despite all this. 

 

 

 

 

Cap hit of his line mate is a moot point. Boeser is a scorer and a top 6. Kuzmenko probably is. Mikheyev have been decent but he’s not really a top 6 on any contender. You factor in the defence pairing you go from 2 of the highest scoring offensive defenceman to 2 of the lowest scoring defenseman that makes a massive difference. Hockey is played 5v5. So just comparing the 2 winger is unfair. Hronek and Hughes have 5x more points than cole Myers and double the points of mikheyev and kuzmenko combined. 
 

yes he’s 6th in scoring but again they played the 3rd weakest schedule in the league. Competition haven’t even ramped up yet. I can see the struggle get worse as the better team starts showing up on the schedule. We simply don’t have the depth to be stacking all the players on 1 line and expect ep to do everything by himself 5v5 as for pdg? Well he’s only there because Canucks have 0 depth on that side. 

[EdgarM]

18 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

I have full confidence in Petey.  I think there is a nagging injury. That along with contract negotiations and him putting extra pressure on himself to be better has made things worse. 

 

Petey was amazing during the playoffs in the covid bubble. 

He's at his best when he gets his shots off which then creates lanes for him to make a pass. 

When he gets shooting and scoring again, I'm sure his assists will pile up too. 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Barn Burner said:

There has to be some kind of nagging injury or illness. Wasn't it a couple of weeks ago, when Button was calling Petey and Hughes the two best players in the league? 

 

Get healthy, and EP should be fine.

Yeah I am really hoping its just some kind of nagging injury.

17 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

He’s obviously battling something, playoffs aren't a concern for me his only playoff appearance he had 18 points in 17 games. No issue with resiliency in tougher games. 

As he is still a young player, I don't think we have seen a finished product so I don't think we can say he is either this or that yet.

17 hours ago, Captkirk888 said:

In 2009-10, the year Henrik won the Art Ross, Daniel was injured for nearly 20 games. Hank dialed it up a notch and proved he could do it alone.

Yes I remember that. I found it was a small sample though and it would be hard to do "Sedinery" things with just one Sedin.

16 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

 

 

I dont think Petey is playing to his full capabilities. I do believe there is a mix of a small injury and some loss of confidence. 

Maybe this is a sign for him to take a bridge deal 9.5m for 3 years. So what if we dont lock him up for 8 seasons.  maybe in 3 years, we'll know whether we should be paying him 13m or 10m and if things keep going well, he'll re-sign here.  If we cant lock him down in his final season, maybe we deal him but that decision is far down the road. 

 

I also think he'll play much better if he plays without the pressure of having to live up to a large contract that people are questioning. At 9.5m, he'll be the toast of the town and can't do no wrong.   He'll be in a much happier headspace.

This is what I believe too, I just hope he can play his way out of what ever he is going through.

I am actually preferring a shorter term contract which would benefit us and him. If the Cap goes up, he can get a bigger pay day down the road and if he plateau's, we are not over paying  him for too many years. A win win for both sides IMO.

[EdgarM]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

Cap hit of his line mate is a moot point. Boeser is a scorer and a top 6. Kuzmenko probably is. Mikheyev have been decent but he’s not really a top 6 on any contender. You factor in the defence pairing you go from 2 of the highest scoring offensive defenceman to 2 of the lowest scoring defenseman that makes a massive difference. Hockey is played 5v5. So just comparing the 2 winger is unfair. Hronek and Hughes have 5x more points than cole Myers and double the points of mikheyev and kuzmenko combined. 
 

yes he’s 6th in scoring but again they played the 3rd weakest schedule in the league. Competition haven’t even ramped up yet. I can see the struggle get worse as the better team starts showing up on the schedule. We simply don’t have the depth to be stacking all the players on 1 line and expect ep to do everything by himself 5v5 as for pdg? Well he’s only there because Canucks have 0 depth on that side. 

Basically you are saying Boeser and PDG is miles better then Mik and Kuz, I am not buying it. PDG makes league MINIMUM!!!!! Let that sink in for a minute.

I mentioned before already that Bure turned Odjick(a goon for the most part) into a sniper, and he wasn't even a Center. 

Great players generally make players around them , BETTER, Boeser playing with Miller is a great example of that. 

[CanucksJay]

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

Cap hit of his line mate is a moot point. Boeser is a scorer and a top 6. Kuzmenko probably is. Mikheyev have been decent but he’s not really a top 6 on any contender. You factor in the defence pairing you go from 2 of the highest scoring offensive defenceman to 2 of the lowest scoring defenseman that makes a massive difference. Hockey is played 5v5. So just comparing the 2 winger is unfair. Hronek and Hughes have 5x more points than cole Myers and double the points of mikheyev and kuzmenko combined. 
 

yes he’s 6th in scoring but again they played the 3rd weakest schedule in the league. Competition haven’t even ramped up yet. I can see the struggle get worse as the better team starts showing up on the schedule. We simply don’t have the depth to be stacking all the players on 1 line and expect ep to do everything by himself 5v5 as for pdg? Well he’s only there because Canucks have 0 depth on that side. 

 

1 hour ago, EdgarM said:

Basically you are saying Boeser and PDG is miles better then Mik and Kuz, I am not buying it. PDG makes league MINIMUM!!!!! Let that sink in for a minute.

I mentioned before already that Bure turned Odjick(a goon for the most part) into a sniper, and he wasn't even a Center. 

Great players generally make players around them , BETTER, Boeser playing with Miller is a great example of that. 

 

@wai_lai416 I don't understand your logic. you say Brock is a top 6 player like it's a fact. He was 0.74 pts /GM last year. Kuz was 0.91 pts / gm

PDG was 0.4 while Mik was 0.61

Petey has been given the 2 better linemates. This is without question. 

One could even argue that putting Brock on Peteys line is giving Petey another defensive liability he needs to cover for. (Brock is much improved this year though) 

 

You say PDG is only there because there is no depth. Doesn't that bolster my argument that Miller is making his linemates better? 

 

The only thing I can agree with you on is that Hughes makes everyone around him better. That's absolutely true. Including Hronek. 

 

If anything, I would say give Hughes the 12.5m contract and give Petey 10m.

If your are making 12+ you should be at Mcdavid, Hughes level. That's why you pay them 12m+. They are the ones that can elevate a line. 

 

When Hughes is paired with Schenn or Juulsen, he's still good. In fact he can make an AHLer like Juulsen look like an average NHLer. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by CanucksJay

[stawns]

15 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

That's a fair question; to which I would said, it would depend on how the rest of the roster is distributed (in terms of the cap).

 

The Pens blueprint was to have a lopsided amount to their "superstars" & try to make do with whats left to 'fill out' the roster.  It's why they unloaded an otherwise very solid center in Sutter.  Not that he was **** but they needed to spend that cap space elsewhere/give them flexability.  It's why they basically moved on from Bonino.  Once a 'supporting cast' player gets too expensive, they look for someone better (or did as Crosby & Co. are getting up their in age now).

 

But I'm just putting out random thoughts out there on a Thursday night.

And Petey is my favourite Canuck, so it'd be tough to say goodbye, but I don't think one player taking that much cap is a wise move, especially with $5m of dead cap coming in the very near future.

[Gawdzukes]

On 11/23/2023 at 1:46 PM, IBatch said:

Well if anyone's interested, i'd give the team solid B+, A- what's the difference. 

 

I found the article hilariously homerish. Everyone gets a B or B+ at least. 

[IBatch]

18 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

I found the article hilariously homerish. Everyone gets a B or B+ at least. 

Pretty sure they were basing it on their roles.   But it also looks like someone in their late teens early 20's with way too much free time wrote it to.   

[EdgarM]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

And Petey is my favourite Canuck, so it'd be tough to say goodbye, but I don't think one player taking that much cap is a wise move, especially with $5m of dead cap coming in the very near future.

I agree, a McDavid or a Matthews does not automatically win you a Cup. I would argue that it might even be a hinderence as you will need to give less to a team mate which lessens the strength of your team, ala Toronto or the Oilers. 

I like the Vegas model much better, a more complete well rounded team.

[wai_lai416]

6 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

 

 

@wai_lai416 I don't understand your logic. you say Brock is a top 6 player like it's a fact. He was 0.74 pts /GM last year. Kuz was 0.91 pts / gm

PDG was 0.4 while Mik was 0.61

Petey has been given the 2 better linemates. This is without question. 

One could even argue that putting Brock on Peteys line is giving Petey another defensive liability he needs to cover for. (Brock is much improved this year though) 

 

You say PDG is only there because there is no depth. Doesn't that bolster my argument that Miller is making his linemates better? 

 

The only thing I can agree with you on is that Hughes makes everyone around him better. That's absolutely true. Including Hronek. 

 

If anything, I would say give Hughes the 12.5m contract and give Petey 10m.

If your are making 12+ you should be at Mcdavid, Hughes level. That's why you pay them 12m+. They are the ones that can elevate a line. 

 

When Hughes is paired with Schenn or Juulsen, he's still good. In fact he can make an AHLer like Juulsen look like an average NHLer. 

 

 

 

 

 

or maybe his better linemates is because of EP? what are their stats without ep? oh that's right not even 0.5pts/gm and i said PROVEN what part of the word PROVEN don't you understand? since when are kuz and mikheyev are proven top 6? boesers done it for 6-7 season vs 1? mikheyev have been a 3rd liner his career prior to coming to vancouver and he played what 4 months? so 4 months makes you a proven top 6?. 

 

juulsen does not look like an average nhler when paired with hughes i don't know what you are smoking.. and Schenn is actually decent.. you sound like he's trash without hughes lmao. 

 

EP not making his linemates better than what they are? again what is mik and kuz's stats without ep? oh right non existent. it's not EP's job to make the defence better. but it's ok he's trash because he can't carry the 4 other people on the ice so let's just get rid of him. Miller is making his linemates better? Miller is making Boeser better.. PDG is just a placeholder.. Miller haven't made PDG better.. he's exactly what he is.. a hard worker forechecker that can't produce for shit.. and 2 of his 5 points is actually from EP.. 

[stawns]

2 hours ago, EdgarM said:

I agree, a McDavid or a Matthews does not automatically win you a Cup. I would argue that it might even be a hinderence as you will need to give less to a team mate which lessens the strength of your team, ala Toronto or the Oilers. 

I like the Vegas model much better, a more complete well rounded team.

Vegas is who they need to emulate.  One player in double digit millions, who they didn't even sign.  Spread the cap out all over the roster

[CanucksJay]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

or maybe his better linemates is because of EP? what are their stats without ep? oh that's right not even 0.5pts/gm and i said PROVEN what part of the word PROVEN don't you understand? since when are kuz and mikheyev are proven top 6? boesers done it for 6-7 season vs 1? mikheyev have been a 3rd liner his career prior to coming to vancouver and he played what 4 months? so 4 months makes you a proven top 6?. 

 

 

 

The only thing Boeser has proven up until this year was to be a disappointment. The fact you hold him up on some pedestal like a bonafide top 6 guy is hilarious because up until this season, we couldn't figure out how to give this guy away. The fact you think Miller has been given more to work with in Boeser and PDG over Petey being given Kuz and Mik is probably all I need to know. Obviously management thought Kuz and Mik are top 6 players. They're the ones that signed them.

You also said PDG is just a placeholder (which I don't disagree) . Doesn't that contradict what you said about Petey needing better d men because the game is 5v5?

Well from what I know of hockey, a forward line usually has 3 guys. Sounds pretty tough for Miller if one of them is just a league min placeholder. Weird that no one is complaining about Miller and we're not having to make excuses for him like PDG is a crappy linemate. Yet now, your pathetic attempt is shifting ownership from Petey to blaming his linemates Kuz and Mik... And not having a Norris calibre D as his D... 

 

I like Petey and hope he bumps the slump but I think you're in denial is you think his linemates are the main issue. 

 

2-2 game against the Avs. Peteys line out against fricking Tufte colton and Wood

 

Point shot taken. Petey comes out to block and it goes through his legs. 

 

That was the game winning goal. Scored by the 3rd line of col... 

 

It is what it is. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

 

 

 

[wai_lai416]

4 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

 

The only thing Boeser has proven up until this year was to be a disappointment. The fact you hold him up on some pedestal like a bonafide top 6 guy is hilarious because up until this season, we couldn't figure out how to give this guy away. The fact you think Miller has been given more to work with in Boeser and PDG over Petey being given Kuz and Mik is probably all I need to know. Obviously management thought Kuz and Mik are top 6 players. They're the ones that signed them.

You also said PDG is just a placeholder (which I don't disagree) . Doesn't that contradict what you said about Petey needing better d men because the game is 5v5?

Well from what I know of hockey, a forward line usually has 3 guys. Sounds pretty tough for Miller if one of them is just a league min placeholder. Weird that no one is complaining about Miller and we're not having to make excuses for him like PDG is a crappy linemate. Yet now, your pathetic attempt is shifting ownership from Petey to blaming his linemates Kuz and Mik... And not having a Norris calibre D as his D... 

 

I like Petey and hope he bumps the slump but I think you're in denial is you think his linemates are the main issue. 

 

2-2 game against the Avs. Peteys line out against fricking Tufte colton and Wood

 

Point shot taken. Petey comes out to block and it goes through his legs. 

 

That was the game winning goal. Scored by the 3rd line of col... 

 

It is what it is. 

 

 

 

 

lol so if a guy gets lucky and gets a shot thru while trying to block well he sucks it's his fault. what u want him to do? go face first to block a shot? that's not even suppose to be his role. this guy leads the team in block shot by forward by a fair margin and we bitch about 1 missed block.. 

 

as for boeser a disappointment? he's a disappointment coz you guys have unrealistic expectation? he needs to score 40+ goals or he's a bust.. he's been on pace for 30 goals 65-70 points his entire career over 82 games.. sure he gets injured a lot.. but he's always been good production wise pts/game. 

 

why don't we put miller with kuzmenko mikheyev cole and friedman/juulsen against other teams top shutdown line and watch him "carry"

[CanucksJay]

11 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol so if a guy gets lucky and gets a shot thru while trying to block well he sucks it's his fault. what u want him to do? go face first to block a shot? that's not even suppose to be his role. this guy leads the team in block shot by forward by a fair margin and we bitch about 1 missed block.. 

 

as for boeser a disappointment? he's a disappointment coz you guys have unrealistic expectation? he needs to score 40+ goals or he's a bust.. he's been on pace for 30 goals 65-70 points his entire career over 82 games.. sure he gets injured a lot.. but he's always been good production wise pts/game. 

 

why don't we put miller with kuzmenko mikheyev cole and friedman/juulsen against other teams top shutdown line and watch him "carry"

If you think Petey is playing great right now and  the only reason for his lack of production is his linemates, I'll probably never get through to you... 

 

SMH.