[Report/Rumour] Elias Pettersson Contract Talks

[Reckless]

12 hours ago, Alflives said:

Yup, clearly we have some incredibly dumbo fans. Might be some of the dumboist dumbos in the league. 

What?? Tell me the last time a players RIGHTS were traded for a 1st and a prospect. It’s much different than a sign and trade 

[Reckless]

12 hours ago, cripplereh said:

Being one of the top 2way centers I think he is.

 

Plus being right handed and can play both PP and PK a full packaged player yes he is.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a players rights go for a 1st and a prospect. It’s rights to talk a contract before free agency. It’s not the same as a sign and trade. He’s not worth that. A teams going to give up a 1st and prospect to find out he doesn’t want to sign with them? No chance. 

[BigBird79]

3 hours ago, Provost said:

I have to shake my head my head at people who don’t think Lindholm is an insurance policy against Petterson not Re-signing.

 

Especially when their posts don’t have any actual content to support their positions.

 

Of course the team wants to extend Petterson, and at a number that is fair market value but also lets them build a team around him.  They have wanted to do that for months, but the player simply doesn’t want to engage in negotiations and commit to the team.  That refusal to commit is literally hampering the ability for management to sign other players and make moves for the future.

 

It just may be that there isn’t interest on the part of the player to extend long term.  His agent has already publicly floated the idea of taking a one year arbitration and walking himself to free agency.  This is an agent who already had the player hold out of training camp to squeeze out more money.

 

Lindholm comes in as both a way to increase leverage in a Petterson negotiation, and a back up plan in case Petterson just doesn’t sign on the dotted line or wants to hold out to be the top paid player in the league (when he is the 3rd best player on our team).

 

In negotiation theory there is something called a BATNA.  “Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement”.  The idea is that before a negotiation you increase your BATNA to put yourself in a better position if the agreement doesn’t happen.  That increases your leverage and decreases the chance you are backed into a corner and forced to sign a bad deal.  It gives you a “walk away” point that you are comfortable with.

 

Without Lindholm, the back up plan for the Canucks without Petterson is to be absolutely screwed next season.  With Lindholm as a BATNA, the team is fine and maybe even in a better spot when you consider the massive return Petterson would garner in trade and the cap space it would open up.

 

For a $13 million Petterson cap hit you could afford Lindholm, Tanev, and raises to Joshua and Blueger.  A trade return would include something like a significant blue chip prospect (think Jiricek level), a solid roster player, and at least one 1st round pick.

 

So as a BATNA, the team isn’t in worse shape if we have to move on from Petterson and could actually be in better shape both in the short term and long term.  That is a really nice negotiating position to be in as it takes almost all the  pressure off you.

 

Ideally Petterson signs a reasonable deal, but picking up Lindholm was even a bigger move than just what he can do for us in the next four months.  Someone in the front office knows what they are doing.  It is the reverse of Benning who seemed to make moves specifically to put himself in bad negotiating positions.

100%
Did the specifically go out and get Lindy for the primary reason to massage negotiations with EP40?  Nope
Does it provide a viable Plan D or whatever in case EP40 asks for the moon and we end up parting ways?  Heck yeah

 

Happy accident/tertiary benefit to the trade.

 

Hopefully and as near as we can tell the plan is to sign them both.  Hopefully Lindy isn't for 7-8 years especially if he's got trade protection.

[cripplereh]

6 hours ago, Provost said:

I have to shake my head my head at people who don’t think Lindholm is an insurance policy against Petterson not Re-signing.

 

Especially when their posts don’t have any actual content to support their positions.

 

Of course the team wants to extend Petterson, and at a number that is fair market value but also lets them build a team around him.  They have wanted to do that for months, but the player simply doesn’t want to engage in negotiations and commit to the team.  That refusal to commit is literally hampering the ability for management to sign other players and make moves for the future.

 

It just may be that there isn’t interest on the part of the player to extend long term.  His agent has already publicly floated the idea of taking a one year arbitration and walking himself to free agency.  This is an agent who already had the player hold out of training camp to squeeze out more money.

 

Lindholm comes in as both a way to increase leverage in a Petterson negotiation, and a back up plan in case Petterson just doesn’t sign on the dotted line or wants to hold out to be the top paid player in the league (when he is the 3rd best player on our team).

 

In negotiation theory there is something called a BATNA.  “Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement”.  The idea is that before a negotiation you increase your BATNA to put yourself in a better position if the agreement doesn’t happen.  That increases your leverage and decreases the chance you are backed into a corner and forced to sign a bad deal.  It gives you a “walk away” point that you are comfortable with.

 

Without Lindholm, the back up plan for the Canucks without Petterson is to be absolutely screwed next season.  With Lindholm as a BATNA, the team is fine and maybe even in a better spot when you consider the massive return Petterson would garner in trade and the cap space it would open up.

 

For a $13 million Petterson cap hit you could afford Lindholm, Tanev, and raises to Joshua and Blueger.  A trade return would include something like a significant blue chip prospect (think Jiricek level), a solid roster player, and at least one 1st round pick.

 

So as a BATNA, the team isn’t in worse shape if we have to move on from Petterson and could actually be in better shape both in the short term and long term.  That is a really nice negotiating position to be in as it takes almost all the  pressure off you.

 

Ideally Petterson signs a reasonable deal, but picking up Lindholm was even a bigger move than just what he can do for us in the next four months.  Someone in the front office knows what they are doing.  It is the reverse of Benning who seemed to make moves specifically to put himself in bad negotiating positions.

Management has stayed they wanted to reward the team with a player to help them 

 

They made a trade for EL which is guess what a reward.

 

We haven't given up depth only a first and a played that had problems.

 

Saying that yes Kuz has skill is a good player but come playoffs a good checking center that can play on the PP and PK plus right handed that's a great player to get.

 

 

The two other players might turn out in 4 to 5 years but by then our window will be gone.

 

They have done what they said.See as you like but if Alvin can make trades we might just keep him.Time will tell.

 

But so far big win.

[cripplereh]

5 hours ago, Reckless said:

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a players rights go for a 1st and a prospect. It’s rights to talk a contract before free agency. It’s not the same as a sign and trade. He’s not worth that. A teams going to give up a 1st and prospect to find out he doesn’t want to sign with them? No chance. 

Unless he states he wants to play there.Alls I am saying is he might get us that if he plays well and yes takes a deal.Even if he doesn't and gets traded we will get something back.

 

But I think if he works on the team another player gets traded and he is resigned.Only takes a trade to make him fit.Myers takes less or goes.Others as we have many ufa's aren't resigned he will get a contract.If not and he's greedy then least management gave us a real shot at a cup which we haven't had since 2011.

 

I am good with that.

[Provost]

3 hours ago, BigBird79 said:

100%
Did the specifically go out and get Lindy for the primary reason to massage negotiations with EP40?  Nope
Does it provide a viable Plan D or whatever in case EP40 asks for the moon and we end up parting ways?  Heck yeah

 

Happy accident/tertiary benefit to the trade.

 

Hopefully and as near as we can tell the plan is to sign them both.  Hopefully Lindy isn't for 7-8 years especially if he's got trade protection.

I am sure it was part of the consideration and pushed Lindholm as the preferred option above a guy like Guentzel who doesn’t have that extra benefit of being a centre. 
 

You know the brain trust of the team has considered different options in the case of Petterson not extending and what that would look like.

[Bob Long]

16 minutes ago, Provost said:

I am sure it was part of the consideration and pushed Lindholm as the preferred option above a guy like Guentzel who doesn’t have that extra benefit of being a centre. 
 

You know the brain trust of the team has considered different options in the case of Petterson not extending and what that would look like.

 

its no accident that they targeted Lindholm months ago, according to Drance. Of course potentially losing Petey is part of it. But its also about enticing Petey to stay for a reasonable price. Petey now has two great options for line mates in either Miller or Lindholm. Petey will be hard pressed to find a better situation. 

 

[EdgarM]

16 hours ago, MJDDawg said:

Good post. Agree with you here. I’ve had a weird vibe from Petey since last season and feel Lindholm is insurance. I’ve also wondered if there’s more to the story here that we just don’t know about yet and this Lindholm trade is just strong advanced planning be some smart hockey people who won’t be “running out of time” when things go down with Petey.

 

I’d hope any return from a Petey trade would be more than just one Tuch type player but I also realize that the team trading the best player never really wins the trade.  It’s the additional draft picks, prospects and cap space that will tilt the deal in our favour.

 

Maybe I’d feel differently about trading Petey if I believed he was worth the type of money being bandied about, but I don’t believe he is. 
 

One just needs to look at the top heavy Leafs to understand that a top heavy cap structure makes it really difficult to ice a balanced and competitive lineup of 4 lines like we have right now.

 

So I’m down for trading Petey to restock some draft capital and prospects, resigning some of our free agents and filling out the lineup with one or two new quality players in order to continue to run a 4 line team. 

 

You know I wish it didn't look that way as there are not many players like Petey but at the end of the day, they have to do what they have to do to put out a competitive product on the ice. 

It would be great if he loved it here and wanted to retire here but he has not said anything that resembles that type of thinking. So we make do.

When I mentioned Tuch, I was thinking more of what we needed for the team. Obviously we will get more for Petey , but if we have a guy like Tuch playing on the second line with Lindholm, all of a sudden, we look like we could run 4 lines and not have to worry about offense or defense from any of them, a team that could go deep in the playoffs.

Maybe we lose a bit of offense, but we would have a team that is balanced and able to with stand the riggers of playoff hockey a lot better.

[Metal Face Doom]

He's going to either sign 8 x 12 or 4 x 11.5 is my guess.

[cripplereh]

Way I see it is talks have started with EP's next deal as was stated yesterday.

 

He has been given every chance to succeed and be happy.

 

If he does get traded did he really want to be here or is he all about money.Like a posted said at the end of his career is an extra 20 mill or so going to be that big a deal when he has enough to live a life with everything he can afford???

 

I think most players want to win and be apart of a good team.Here he has that now.

 

In the end is is his discion to stay or go and the summer we find out.

 

But for now we have an unbelievable great team so let's hope for the best.

[Reckless]

1 hour ago, cripplereh said:

Unless he states he wants to play there.Alls I am saying is he might get us that if he plays well and yes takes a deal.Even if he doesn't and gets traded we will get something back.

 

But I think if he works on the team another player gets traded and he is resigned.Only takes a trade to make him fit.Myers takes less or goes.Others as we have many ufa's aren't resigned he will get a contract.If not and he's greedy then least management gave us a real shot at a cup which we haven't had since 2011.

 

I am good with that.

Yeah if he agrees to a deal in a sign and trade, sure I 100% agree, but when does that ever happen? It’s not often and usually the only reason is so the receiving team can get that extra 8th year out of the contract, like Severson last year. Here’s an article, although somewhat old, on what you should expect for trading players rights. Look at how many that traded for a players rights didn’t end up signing that player. 
 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-trade-free-agent-rights-draft-pick-boyle-niemi-varlamov-ehrhoff-gonchar-ufa-rfa-stamkos/?sn-amp

[cripplereh]

3 minutes ago, Reckless said:

Yeah if he agrees to a deal in a sign and trade, sure I 100% agree, but when does that ever happen? It’s not often and usually the only reason is so the receiving team can get that extra 8th year out of the contract, like Severson last year. Here’s an article, although somewhat old, on what you should expect for trading players rights. Look at how many that traded for a players rights didn’t end up signing that player. 
 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-trade-free-agent-rights-draft-pick-boyle-niemi-varlamov-ehrhoff-gonchar-ufa-rfa-stamkos/?sn-amp

Yes I see but one thing I think people here forget.Kuz got interviewed by many teams yet our management sold him on coming here.Plys talked to him about being traded.That's class and I think they could easily sell EL on staying if we have cap room.

 

Players that hit the free market seem to be going for the big pay day and why we see very little stay with teams.

[wai_lai416]

8 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

You seem to like throwing "toxic" out there a lot. 

sure coz there's no sugar coating it

[Bob Long]

Just now, wai_lai416 said:

sure coz there's no sugar coating it

 

Nah it's just your take. Most of the fans are great.

[bh90]

18 hours ago, cripplereh said:

How about do your own research and think Gretzky trade that would never happen.

 

That alone says anything can.

 

why would someone else do research to back up your arguement?

 

the arguement he's making is that a pending UFA won't fetch you a 1st and a prospect simply for their UFA rights. History tells us he is right ... unless you can show us recent examples of it happening in todays environment (cap world).

[Reckless]

48 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

Yes I see but one thing I think people here forget.Kuz got interviewed by many teams yet our management sold him on coming here.Plys talked to him about being traded.That's class and I think they could easily sell EL on staying if we have cap room.

 

Players that hit the free market seem to be going for the big pay day and why we see very little stay with teams.

Not sure what that has to do with trading EL’s rights but okay haha. I’m not saying management didn’t sell him on coming here but Mikheyev helped Kuzmenko probably the most. Having a buddy, especially with the language barrier, on a team already and saying that team and city is worth playing for probably helped his decision more than management.  

[Reckless]

20 hours ago, Alflives said:

It’s like the same arguments with the same posters from the Hronek trade. I guess some fans just don’t understand how good Lindholm (and Hronek last year) is. 

But it’s not the same argument lol. Hronek had term left on his contract and Lindholm does not. You’re not getting a 1st and prospect for a UFA’s rights. Not the same argument at all. 

[Alflives]

Just now, Reckless said:

But it’s not the same argument lol. Hronek had term left on his contract and Lindholm does not. You’re not getting a 1st and prospect for a UFA’s rights. Not the same argument at all. 

Lindholm has the rest of this season for us. It’s not at all UFA rights. That kind of trade occurrs after the season and before July 1. 
We stole Lindholm. The Jets paid more for Monnohands. Accept we are great!

Bow to the Empties!!!

[Barn Burner]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Lindholm has the rest of this season for us. It’s not at all UFA rights. That kind of trade occurrs after the season and before July 1. 
We stole Lindholm. The Jets paid more for Monnohands. Accept we are great!

Bow to the Empties!!!

Alf, bow to your own empties! 

 

Of course it's UFA. It doesn't matter which way you try to spin it, unless he signs and unless we win the cup, that's a lot of assets to throw away. 

 

Lay off the juice Alf! 

 

The best thing about this trade is that it happened prior to the TDL, which gives us a couple months to see how this all plays out. 

 

That extra month is huge. So thank goodness it happened now.

 

Let's hope this guy regains his form, from two seasons ago. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Barn Burner said:

Alf, bow to your own empties! 

 

Of course it's UFA. It doesn't matter which way you try to spin it, unless he signs and unless we win the cup, that's a lot of assets to throw away. 

 

Lay off the juice Alf! 

 

The best thing about this trade is that it happened prior to the TDL, which gives us a couple months to see how this all plays out. 

 

That extra month is huge. So thank goodness it happened now.

 

Let's hope this guy regains his form, from two seasons ago. 

Sorry friend but you’re wrong. UFA rights are traded after the season and before July 1. 
Bow to the Empties for your errors. 

[Barn Burner]

Just now, Alflives said:

Sorry friend but you’re wrong. UFA rights are traded after the season and before July 1. 
Bow to the Empties for your errors. 

You're outta your mind Alf! 

[Reckless]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Lindholm has the rest of this season for us. It’s not at all UFA rights. That kind of trade occurrs after the season and before July 1. 
We stole Lindholm. The Jets paid more for Monnohands. Accept we are great!

Bow to the Empties!!!

No Alf, what you quoted and what the argument was about was trading Lindholm’s RIGHTS for a 1st and a prospect…then you said “it’s like the same argument with the Hronek trade”….when no it’s not. Hronek had TERM and Elias does NOT. So yes it is UFA rights because that’s what the argument was about. What is so hard to understand here? Lindholm or any player for that matter isn’t fetching a 1st and prospect for their rights to negotiate a contract. It’s not the same at all as a 1st and a prospect for a player that has term. 

[Reckless]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Sorry friend but you’re wrong. UFA rights are traded after the season and before July 1. 
Bow to the Empties for your errors. 

Sorry but you’re wrong and arguing with yourself apparently. There’s two different conversations going on here. One of them is in this forum and one of them is in your own alcohol saturated brain. Just go back a page Alf and maybe re read what you and the other two posters said. Incase you forgot what you posted many hours ago 

[cripplereh]

28 minutes ago, bh90 said:

 

why would someone else do research to back up your arguement?

 

the arguement he's making is that a pending UFA won't fetch you a 1st and a prospect simply for their UFA rights. History tells us he is right ... unless you can show us recent examples of it happening in todays environment (cap world).

Today's game was not added in the convo so sorry young people don't know hockey.

 

 

And yes if a contract is being talked player wants to go there it can .

 

Has and will as cap will go away in the future.

[bathgate]

On 2/1/2024 at 5:17 AM, IBatch said:

Answer is no thanks.   Prefer to extend EP, even if it's Mathews money.    We aren't in that cycle anymore.   

To pay ep40 12.5 ,in my opinion ,means this year will be the only year for realistic

play for Stanley Cup.