cripplereh Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 6 minutes ago, Diamonds said: You seem to enjoy completely ignoring posted information when you try to make your points. Pettersson is a great player, but there are only 3 players in the league set to make more than $12M next year: Matthews, MacKinnon, and McDavid. Do you seriously think Pettersson is the 4th best player in the world? Again, he's a great player and maybe he still has potential to be in that category but I wouldn't put him there now. Huberdeau is actually a pretty good comparison. He got offered his $10.5M contract after a 115 point season. Maybe it doesn't look as good right now, but that was a hell of a season. It was also his 4th straight season over 1PPG. You're loving saying that Panarin has never had more than 96 points while saying Petey is on pace for his 2nd 100 point season. Using that logic, Panarin is on pace for his 3rd 100 point season. He previously put up 95 in 69 and 96 in 79, both seasons were over a 100 point pace. Also, again, Panarin has been a Hart finalist which is worth a lot of money. Panarin is also one of the most consistent players in the league. Since he entered the league in 2015 he's the 5th highest scoring player and since the 2019-20 season is the 4th highest scoring player behind only McDavid, Draisaitl, and MacKinnon. He's about to have his 7th straight PPG+ season. This will be Pettersson's second season over 1PPG. (Just for reference, since the 2019-20 season Pettersson is 22nd in scoring and actually 1 point behind Sebastian Aho, though very slightly higher in PPG). Again, Pettersson is a great player with potential to still maybe get his name into the Hart conversation in the future. But, he isn't there quite yet. Sure, some of his contract will be based on his potential and he's still quite young, but I don't think he should be getting paid the same as the guys that already have those accolades. Yes, it's absolutely possible that his next contract is $12M+, I just don't think it should be. I have argued stats like this and people call me crazy. Thing is what is he worth at the time he signs.Right now I would say about 11mill. Cap is going up but again it's at the time.You can't argue in two years the caps going up 5 mill so I wants another two. The cap goes up to help the team not one player. If EP wants 12 or more I say trade him with pieces back and we resign what we have we will be close to the same.Money remaining we could add two or more players making us an overall better team. That's my thoughts but I think he does sign for 12 x8 and I'd be ok with that.Sating that then it leaves the team weaker with the oel money hurting us for a couple years and we won't get to resign some players.But we have a few from abby who look like they will be ready. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 The issue, to me is when is it too much risk. 1 player at big bucks gets injured, and leaves a huge hole. 2 guys playing for a total of $12, and 1 gets hurt, there is still a $6 mill guy in the line up. Petey at $12 mill or 2 guys at $6 ish a piece? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cripplereh Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 My question is this. If EP wants to win will he take less to help the team contend for years or is he selfish and takes max???? I hope he does read this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijjibo Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 25 minutes ago, cripplereh said: I have argued stats like this and people call me crazy. Thing is what is he worth at the time he signs.Right now I would say about 11mill. Cap is going up but again it's at the time.You can't argue in two years the caps going up 5 mill so I wants another two. The cap goes up to help the team not one player. If EP wants 12 or more I say trade him with pieces back and we resign what we have we will be close to the same.Money remaining we could add two or more players making us an overall better team. That's my thoughts but I think he does sign for 12 x8 and I'd be ok with that.Sating that then it leaves the team weaker with the oel money hurting us for a couple years and we won't get to resign some players.But we have a few from abby who look like they will be ready. The problem with trying to trade him is the uncertainty of his contract. He's not signed beyond this season, woukd be demanding $12m+ (in your trade scenario) and could force his way to UFA status in a year if he doesn't want to sign with the new team. Conditional picks based on a player signing aren't allowed anymore so the team trading for him has no protection. Then there's the question of whether there's a contender with the cap space and the assets to make the trade WOULD make a trade. Either way its pretty unlikely that Vancouver gets fair value for him in a trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijjibo Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Just now, cripplereh said: My question is this. If EP wants to win will he take less to help the team contend for years or is he selfish and takes max???? I hope he does read this. If how he approached his previous contract negotiations are any indication I doubt hes looking to give a discount. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cripplereh Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 minute ago, qwijjibo said: The problem with trying to trade him is the uncertainty of his contract. He's not signed beyond this season, woukd be demanding $12m+ (in your trade scenario) and could force his way to UFA status in a year if he doesn't want to sign with the new team. Conditional picks based on a player signing aren't allowed anymore so the team trading for him has no protection. Then there's the question of whether there's a contender with the cap space and the assets to make the trade WOULD make a trade. Either way its pretty unlikely that Vancouver gets fair value for him in a trade. Actually he is a rfa if he holds out he will not get near the amount when he tries again. He would know this and would sign or risk getting way less. I am sure there would be talks with him and he would go to a team he wants to avoid this to make everyone happy. Sign and trade or he signs right away so we would get the best return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cripplereh Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 minutes ago, qwijjibo said: If how he approached his previous contract negotiations are any indication I doubt hes looking to give a discount. Again that's cool he is betting on himself. But what about playoffs.If he disappears for a couple games that will really hurt his contract. Big gamble if there is a contract he could sign now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.AM.THE.WALRUS Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 24 minutes ago, Gurn said: The issue, to me is when is it too much risk. 1 player at big bucks gets injured, and leaves a huge hole. 2 guys playing for a total of $12, and 1 gets hurt, there is still a $6 mill guy in the line up. Petey at $12 mill or 2 guys at $6 ish a piece? And the big question is will Petey actually become a tougher player to play against and not fall down all the time and disappear for stretches at a time… If Petey can actually step up and become a stronger player - one that won’t fall down and become more consistent then pay him the money - but as he is right now he clearly is inconsistent and disappears in the rough tough games and you can’t have that in your top 6 players if you really want to succeed… So with this in mind it’s definitely a gamble to sign him to a long term high dollar contract as he is right at this point in time… The big question is will he develop into a much stronger player who has way more compete and way more consistency? We will never know until that day arrives… If it will.., 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.AM.THE.WALRUS Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Maybe I’m shortsighted but I don’t have a lot of confidence in Petey… I don’t see him getting a whole lot stronger and harder to play against like TJ - however if he could get a lot stronger and take his compete level to the level that TJ is at - able to fight through checks better he’s able to withstand the physical aspect of this game and compete at a much higher level then I’ll have a lot more confidence in him as a top six forward… However we don’t know if that day will arrive… If he has the drive to improve himself so that he can become so much more complete consistent player… Should we take a risk or should we turn him into first round draft picks etc your thoughts ? 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayDangles Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 21 minutes ago, qwijjibo said: The problem with trying to trade him is the uncertainty of his contract. He's not signed beyond this season, woukd be demanding $12m+ (in your trade scenario) and could force his way to UFA status in a year if he doesn't want to sign with the new team. Conditional picks based on a player signing aren't allowed anymore so the team trading for him has no protection. Then there's the question of whether there's a contender with the cap space and the assets to make the trade WOULD make a trade. Either way its pretty unlikely that Vancouver gets fair value for him in a trade. See the Horvat trade for reference. A player that needs a hefty new contract can still net you a solid return if the right GM is at the helm 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijjibo Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 30 minutes ago, cripplereh said: Actually he is a rfa if he holds out he will not get near the amount when he tries again. He would know this and would sign or risk getting way less. I am sure there would be talks with him and he would go to a team he wants to avoid this to make everyone happy. Sign and trade or he signs right away so we would get the best return. I know he's RFA. But he can choose to simply accept his qualifying offer of $10.25m for a year then walk straight to UFA next summer. Pettersson holds the hammer here. Just like Tkachuk did in Calgary. You're being naive if you think he wouldn't be able to cash in as a UFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamonds Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, qwijjibo said: I know he's RFA. But he can choose to simply accept his qualifying offer of $10.25m for a year then walk straight to UFA next summer. Pettersson holds the hammer here. Just like Tkachuk did in Calgary. You're being naive if you think he wouldn't be able to cash in as a UFA His qualifying offer is actually just $8.82M. His contract was signed after they changed the QO calculation methodology to stop teams back-loading RFA contracts. I think if Pettersson accepts that it's a very clear sign he doesn't want to be here and management will likely trade him in the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijjibo Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 41 minutes ago, Diamonds said: His qualifying offer is actually just $8.82M. His contract was signed after they changed the QO calculation methodology to stop teams back-loading RFA contracts. I think if Pettersson accepts that it's a very clear sign he doesn't want to be here and management will likely trade him in the summer. Good catch. Regardless the point remains the same. If his aim is to get to free agency he has a direct route that's only a season away. The uncertainty of his contract will have an unwelcome effect on his trade value if that's what Vancouver is forced to do 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 3 hours ago, Diamonds said: You seem to enjoy completely ignoring posted information when you try to make your points. Pettersson is a great player, but there are only 3 players in the league set to make more than $12M next year: Matthews, MacKinnon, and McDavid. Do you seriously think Pettersson is the 4th best player in the world? Again, he's a great player and maybe he still has potential to be in that category but I wouldn't put him there now. Huberdeau is actually a pretty good comparison. He got offered his $10.5M contract after a 115 point season. Maybe it doesn't look as good right now, but that was a hell of a season. It was also his 4th straight season over 1PPG. You're loving saying that Panarin has never had more than 96 points while saying Petey is on pace for his 2nd 100 point season. Using that logic, Panarin is on pace for his 3rd 100 point season. He previously put up 95 in 69 and 96 in 79, both seasons were over a 100 point pace. Also, again, Panarin has been a Hart finalist which is worth a lot of money. Panarin is also one of the most consistent players in the league. Since he entered the league in 2015 he's the 5th highest scoring player and since the 2019-20 season is the 4th highest scoring player behind only McDavid, Draisaitl, and MacKinnon. He's about to have his 7th straight PPG+ season. This will be Pettersson's second season over 1PPG. (Just for reference, since the 2019-20 season Pettersson is 22nd in scoring and actually 1 point behind Sebastian Aho, though very slightly higher in PPG). Again, Pettersson is a great player with potential to still maybe get his name into the Hart conversation in the future. But, he isn't there quite yet. Sure, some of his contract will be based on his potential and he's still quite young, but I don't think he should be getting paid the same as the guys that already have those accolades. Yes, it's absolutely possible that his next contract is $12M+, I just don't think it should be. Panarin signed his deal almost 5 years ago. The market has changed since then. Also, he signed his deal in the summer of 2019. He finished 3rd in Hart trophy voting in 2020. You probably should have looked that up before your claim that Panarin was a Hart finalist so he deserved that contract. Kucherov was the one who actually won the Hart trophy in 2019 and then also signed in the summer of 2019 for only $9.5 million. So why did Kucherov only get $9.5 million when he won the Hart trophy and Panarin got $11.6 million in the exact same summer and he didn't even receive one single vote? Can you explain that? At the time Panarin signed his $11.6 million contract he was coming off an 87 point season from 79 games. Nowhere near a 100 point pace as you claim. Those numbers and his Hart trophy finalist came AFTER he signed his contract. Petey will be a two time 100+ point player BEFORE he signs his new contract, well above any numbers Panarin put up before he signed his current contract in the summer of 2019. Panarin was overpaid back then. Maybe Petey will be overpaid now. We will see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cripplereh Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, qwijjibo said: I know he's RFA. But he can choose to simply accept his qualifying offer of $10.25m for a year then walk straight to UFA next summer. Pettersson holds the hammer here. Just like Tkachuk did in Calgary. You're being naive if you think he wouldn't be able to cash in as a UFA Oh well reading your post I thought you meant take no contract and without for a year,but yes he could but Calgary did get a good trade for him just this season Huberdo isn't playing as good.If he was still would have been a good trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijjibo Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 6 minutes ago, cripplereh said: Oh well reading your post I thought you meant take no contract and without for a year,but yes he could but Calgary did get a good trade for him just this season Huberdo isn't playing as good.If he was still would have been a good trade. If Vancouver is forced to trade him they'll get a very good return, but I suspect people would still be disappointed with what they get. It's tough to win a trade when you're moving out the best piece. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cripplereh Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Just now, qwijjibo said: If Vancouver is forced to trade him they'll get a very good return, but I suspect people would still be disappointed with what they get. It's tough to win a trade when you're moving out the best piece. Miller or Hughes??? To me they are both ahead of EP. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijjibo Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 minute ago, cripplereh said: Miller or Hughes??? To me they are both ahead of EP. In any trade involving EP40 he is most likely the best player involved in the trade. Not sure what Hughes or Miller have to do with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cripplereh Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 minutes ago, qwijjibo said: In any trade involving EP40 he is most likely the best player involved in the trade. Not sure what Hughes or Miller have to do with that Sorry hard to read your meaning. But moving the best piece in a trade doesn't mean you lose the trade if you can get back two pieces you need plus prospect that will play soon and high pick. In the past there have been many trades that are involved one great player moving but the other team ended up better. With our management I could see them making the right deal so it helps us more or just as much. This isn't the Benning years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijjibo Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 14 minutes ago, cripplereh said: Sorry hard to read your meaning. But moving the best piece in a trade doesn't mean you lose the trade if you can get back two pieces you need plus prospect that will play soon and high pick. In the past there have been many trades that are involved one great player moving but the other team ended up better. With our management I could see them making the right deal so it helps us more or just as much. This isn't the Benning years. It's happened. But generally speaking the team that gets the best player comes out on top. Plus Pettersson's trade value won't be at its peak if he hasn't committed to signing. The threat of him wanting to get to UFA in a year could scare off a lot of teams and limit what interested teams might offer. None of that is guaranteed to be true. But the potential exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJDDawg Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 30 minutes ago, qwijjibo said: If Vancouver is forced to trade him they'll get a very good return, but I suspect people would still be disappointed with what they get. It's tough to win a trade when you're moving out the best piece. Correct. The team landing the best player almost always wins the deal in the short term. Which is why I suggest if we can somehow snag the number 1 pick to draft Macklin ++, I think most would be satisfied. I know I would be for sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijjibo Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 6 minutes ago, MJDDawg said: Correct. The team landing the best player almost always wins the deal in the short term. Which is why I suggest if we can somehow snag the number 1 pick to draft Macklin ++, I think most would be satisfied. I know I would be for sure. The problem is there isn't much incentive for a rebuilding team to trade a highly regarded 1st OA pick for a 26 year old player who most likely wouldn't agree to sign with them, and if he did it would be fir a cap hit in excess of $11m. There's just too much risk, plus even if he did sign he wouldn't fit the timeline of a rebuilding team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cripplereh Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 minute ago, qwijjibo said: The problem is there isn't much incentive for a rebuilding team to trade a highly regarded 1st OA pick for a 26 year old player who most likely wouldn't agree to sign with them, and if he did it would be fir a cap hit in excess of $11m. There's just too much risk, plus even if he did sign he wouldn't fit the timeline of a rebuilding team. Again it would b that teams problem. Teams trade for the player and if they think they can sign him long term then again that is their problem if he doesn't. GM's will trade for a guy with EP's skills and pay full price. What ifs are in every trade yet we see them every year. GM's don't go by what it's or we would rarely see trades happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijjibo Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 4 minutes ago, cripplereh said: Again it would b that teams problem. Teams trade for the player and if they think they can sign him long term then again that is their problem if he doesn't. GM's will trade for a guy with EP's skills and pay full price. What ifs are in every trade yet we see them every year. GM's don't go by what it's or we would rarely see trades happen. Trades happen when they make sense for both teams. I outlined why a rebuilding team most likely wouldn't trade a 1st OA pick for a 26 year old player who likely wouldn't sign with them and wouldn't fir thuer timeline even if he was willing. Saying it's that teamsvotoblem doesn't negate all those things. Pettersson is a fantastic player but that doesn't mean he's a fit for a rebuilding team. If you were Chicago would you rather have Bedand and Celibrini on EL contracts while they continue yo rebuild plus a minimum of 7 years of team control, Or 1 year of Bedard playing with Petterson testing up a minimum of $8.2m cap space abd then walking off into rhe sunset for free after 1 season? I take the Celebrini/Bedard duo over the slight chance that they can re-sign Petterson. Even if tge manage to resign him he'll be wasted on a team that won't be relevant for several more seasons as they continue to rebuild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 38 minutes ago, cripplereh said: Again it would b that teams problem. Teams trade for the player and if they think they can sign him long term then again that is their problem if he doesn't. GM's will trade for a guy with EP's skills and pay full price. What ifs are in every trade yet we see them every year. GM's don't go by what it's or we would rarely see trades happen. no team is going to gamble their future away unless they have confirmation EP will sign with them.. if PA makes a similar trade for a EP type player and he walks after 1 year because there was no confirmation he ever sign with the team? you guys 100% run the guy out of town and trash him on every single social media platform u can get ur hands on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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