[Report/Rumour] Elias Pettersson Contract Talks

[Alflives]

43 minutes ago, 43isprime said:

 

Btw, being one of the top 32 centers in the league isn't a sufficient condition for an 11+ valuation.

 

When he hasn't been the undisputed number one center on his team over the past 4 seasons, and his team's other best center has been JT Miller (who is a good player, don't get me wrong), it's time to doubt whether he's really worth 11+.

Miller took a discount to stay here. He’s clearly an 11 mil per player. Petey will come in under 10 per. 4 x 9.5. 

[snowman955]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Miller took a discount to stay here. He’s clearly an 11 mil per player. Petey will come in under 10 per. 4 x 9.5. 

I would think even less to equal his most  recent play. I have noticed and sure other's have seen contracts that are overvalued equal less effort.

 

Some players play to a lesser degree after signing. Not all.

 

Still, EP40 , has issues with his shots and needlessly falling. His stats don't equal his desire for a hefty offer.

 

I fear his desire to sign here are not that of a player that wants to stay hear. I believe he thinks he would get more elsewhere. Good luck with that. 

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, snowman955 said:

I would think even less to equal his most  recent play. I have noticed and sure other's have seen contracts that are overvalued equal less effort.

 

Some players play to a lesser degree after signing. Not all.

 

Still, EP40 , has issues with his shots and needlessly falling. His stats don't equal his desire for a hefty offer.

 

I fear his desire to sign here are not that of a player that wants to stay hear. I believe he thinks he would get more elsewhere. Good luck with that. 

Interesting opinion. IMHAO Petey is an internally motivated athlete, who is clearly one of the top players in the league. He will sign a shorter term contract to keep the yearly cap allocation under 10. He wants to win and will accommodate the club. 
We have the best core in the league. Petey will be riding in the first convertible with the Conn Smyth trophy during the club’s 2024 Cup parade down Georgia. 
Now bow to the empties. 

[snowman955]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Interesting opinion. IMHAO Petey is an internally motivated athlete, who is clearly one of the top players in the league. He will sign a shorter term contract to keep the yearly cap allocation under 10. He wants to win and will accommodate the club. 
We have the best core in the league. Petey will be riding in the first convertible with the Conn Smyth trophy during the club’s 2024 Cup parade down Georgia. 
Now bow to the empties. 

While he may be one of the best in the league today. He knows it.

 

Is he going to sign team friendly? Not sure about that. Until his issues are dealt with , l am reserved.

 

I bow to no-one. My Misses or yours.lol

 

 

 

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, 43isprime said:

 

Btw, being one of the top 32 centers in the league isn't a sufficient condition for an 11+ valuation.

 

When he hasn't been the undisputed number one center on his team over the past 4 seasons, and his team's other best center has been JT Miller (who is a good player, don't get me wrong), it's time to doubt whether he's really worth 11+.

So again based on your argument Malkin have never been the undisputed #1 center on his team over his entire career and the the exception of when Crosby is injured. So why is he paid as one of the top players in the league? Same with Leon draisatal if your argument is why should he be paid if he was never the undisputed #1 center. Just because there’s another great center on the team therefore his accomplishment should be diminished? He’s easily the undisputed #1 center in 2/3 of the league maybe more

[HKSR]

8 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

There is a reason that 7 out of the 14 players who are currently making $10 million or more are centres.  This concept seems to be difficult for you to understand.  Not sure why.  Any competent GM will tell you that in order to build a team to win a cup you need a #1 centre, #1 Dman and #1 goalie.  Those are your building blocks.  Having a 60-goal winger is great, but a #1 centre is more valuable.  That's why half the players making $10 million+ are centres.

 

I wouldn't trade Petey straight up for Pastrnak and neither would Allvin.  I wouldn't trade Hughes straight up for him either...

With all due respect to Petey, right now Miller is the best centre on this team.  In fact, the reason the Canucks have looked mediocre for the past 10 to 12 games is because Petey has been playing so poorly.  

 

Pastrnak doesn't even need a top end 1C to score 40+ goals.  I guarantee if he was on this team with Blueger in the middle, we'd probably be 1st in the league right now.  I don't think you realize how difficult it is to shut down Pastrnak.

[43isprime]

13 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

So again based on your argument Malkin have never been the undisputed #1 center on his team over his entire career and the the exception of when Crosby is injured. So why is he paid as one of the top players in the league? Same with Leon draisatal if your argument is why should he be paid if he was never the undisputed #1 center. Just because there’s another great center on the team therefore his accomplishment should be diminished? He’s easily the undisputed #1 center in 2/3 of the league maybe more

 

Uh JT Miller not in the same league as Mcdavid and Crosby?

 

[HKSR]

6 hours ago, 43isprime said:

 

Since you put stock into awards voting by citing how Pettersson was 7th in Selke votes last year, do you realize that Pastrnak and Tkachuk were 2 and 3 in the Hart Trophy voting last year, whereas Pettersson finished 18th?

 

Now obviously team quality has a lot to do with it, but it's not like the Panthers tore it up in the regular season. Just FYI - of the top 10 in Hart voting, 4 were centers, 4 were wingers, and 2 were goalies.

 

Going down the list of all centers in the NHL, Tkachuk and Pastrnak have to slot in above some - surely you're not arguing ANY center is more valuable than those two. I don't think it's as clear cut as you make it seem that Pettersson slots above them. He's clearly not anywhere near the Mcdavid, Matthews, MacKinnon tier.

Exactly.  There ARE wingers more valuable than even some of the top centres in this league.  Right now, Pastrnak is the premier winger in this league.  He's on pace for nearly 50 goals playing with Pavel fricking Zacha.  

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by HKSR

[Coryberg]

3 hours ago, 43isprime said:

 

Btw, being one of the top 32 centers in the league isn't a sufficient condition for an 11+ valuation.

 

When he hasn't been the undisputed number one center on his team over the past 4 seasons, and his team's other best center has been JT Miller (who is a good player, don't get me wrong), it's time to doubt whether he's really worth 11+.

Oddly enough he was the best center on the team for the first 4 years of his career. It's only been the past few seasons since JT has been moved to center that there could be a debate in the matter. Quite an impressive feat considering how he only just turned 25.

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, 43isprime said:

 

Uh JT Miller not in the same league as Mcdavid and Crosby?

 

no one said he's in the same league? but is Miller not the #1 center in points currently? imagine being in a slump for 10 games and somehow still #2 center overall in points.. yes he's trash we should pay him like trash or get rid of him for a winger.

 

1 hour ago, HKSR said:

Exactly.  There ARE wingers more valuable than even some of the top centres in this league.  Right now, Pastrnak is the premier winger in this league.  He's on pace for nearly 50 goals playing with Pavel fricking Zacha.  

 

so again show me a premier winger that carried his team to the finals? don't even have to win a cup? teams have won cups and multiple cups in the salary cap era without a premier winger.. what team have won a cup without an elite center?.. you say he's playing with zacha? well he's also playing with marchand.. you know the guy that's been well over a ppg 6 out of his last 7 season? the 7th highest assist forward in the last 5 season?

[BPA]

Here’s hoping to a $9-10M x 8yr contract.

 

[HKSR]

52 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

no one said he's in the same league? but is Miller not the #1 center in points currently? imagine being in a slump for 10 games and somehow still #2 center overall in points.. yes he's trash we should pay him like trash or get rid of him for a winger.

 

so again show me a premier winger that carried his team to the finals? don't even have to win a cup? teams have won cups and multiple cups in the salary cap era without a premier winger.. what team have won a cup without an elite center?.. you say he's playing with zacha? well he's also playing with marchand.. you know the guy that's been well over a ppg 6 out of his last 7 season? the 7th highest assist forward in the last 5 season?

I'd argue that Stanley Cup winners almost always have an elite level winger (1W) to go with that 1C.  It's certainly not uncommon that the 1W is the piece that puts a team over the top as they're generally the game breakers -- high offensive ability.  The goal scorer.  Take any of these guys out of their respective Cup runs and that team would not have won the Cup. 

 

Going back through 10 years of Cup winners:

 

VGK - Marchessault

COL - Rantanen

TBL - Kucherov

STL - Tarasenko

WAS - Some guy named Ovechkin

CHI - Kane

PIT - Kessel (laugh all you want, Kessel put them over the top -- was even the top scorer in the playoffs)

 

You get the idea.  The 1W on Cup contenders is extremely important.

 

I think the question is, do the Canucks have that guy?  We certainly have a 1C in Miller, 1D in Hughes, and 1G in Demko, but unless you think Boeser or Kuzmenko is that 1W, we actually don't have an elite winger on this roster.  Hopefully Boeser is "back" and is that guy, but until he strings together a full season and scores 30+ goals, we don't know that yet.

 

There's a legitimate argument here that Pastrnak would make the Canucks a better team than having Petey.  Pastrnak could be the 2nd line threat.  He's turned Pavel Zacha into a 65 point centre lmao.

 

Btw, you gotta stop living in the past.  Up until yesterday, Marchand has not been very good this season.  He was even demoted to the 3rd line last week:  https://bostonhockeynow.com/2023/11/29/boston-bruins-marchand-gets-demoted-in-montgomery-line-shuffling/

 

"The demotion of Marchand is obviously going to garner the biggest news but really shouldn’t come as a surprise. The 35-year-old star winger has not looked like himself for most of the season, especially during the current slump the Bruins find themselves in. Marchand is riding a four-game pointless streak and has just one assist in his last five games."

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by HKSR

[wai_lai416]

31 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I'd argue that Stanley Cup winners almost always have an elite level winger (1W) to go with that 1C.  It's certainly not uncommon that the 1W is the piece that puts a team over the top as they're generally the game breakers -- high offensive ability.  The goal scorer.  Take any of these guys out of their respective Cup runs and that team would not have won the Cup. 

 

Going back through 10 years of Cup winners:

 

VGK - Marchessault

COL - Rantanen

TBL - Kucherov

STL - Tarasenko

WAS - Some guy named Ovechkin

CHI - Kane

PIT - Kessel (laugh all you want, Kessel put them over the top -- was even the top scorer in the playoffs)

 

You get the idea.  The 1W on Cup contenders is extremely important.

 

I think the question is, do the Canucks have that guy?  We certainly have a 1C in Miller, 1D in Hughes, and 1G in Demko, but unless you think Boeser or Kuzmenko is that 1W, we actually don't have an elite winger on this roster.  Hopefully Boeser is "back" and is that guy, but until he strings together a full season and scores 30+ goals, we don't know that yet.

 

There's a legitimate argument here that Pastrnak would make the Canucks a better team than having Petey.  Pastrnak could be the 2nd line threat.  He's turned Pavel Zacha into a 65 point centre lmao.

 

Btw, you gotta stop living in the past.  Up until yesterday, Marchand has not been very good this season.  He was even demoted to the 3rd line last week:  https://bostonhockeynow.com/2023/11/29/boston-bruins-marchand-gets-demoted-in-montgomery-line-shuffling/

 

"The demotion of Marchand is obviously going to garner the biggest news but really shouldn’t come as a surprise. The 35-year-old star winger has not looked like himself for most of the season, especially during the current slump the Bruins find themselves in. Marchand is riding a four-game pointless streak and has just one assist in his last five games."

 

 

vgk.. so eichel and stone is not on the team?

col.. mackinnon?? rantanen the goal scorer with his 5 total goals put them over the top?

tbl.. Point? vaseilesky? with or without kucherov they prolly win a cup or 2

Stl.. RoR?? tarasenko was invisible in the finals?

was.. kuznetsov easily carried the team??

chi.. toews?

pittsburgh malkin crosby?? Kessel is a by product of those 2?

 

imagine having a almost ppg 3rd liner and calling him trash.. whether he's slumping or not he's still one of the more productive player in the league even at the current age of 35.. 

 

that's a stupid take if u think you just slap any 3rd/4th line plugs with pastrnak and he will carry them.. that's basically what he'll be doing if he's playing 2nd line in vancouver lol with pius sutter as his center.

 

btw all those team won coz they have contribution up and down their line up.. in vancouver outside of the core players.. the contribution is neglible.

Edited December 4, 2023 by wai_lai416

[HKSR]

31 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

 

vgk.. so eichel and stone is not on the team?

col.. mackinnon?? rantanen the goal scorer with his 5 total goals put them over the top?

tbl.. Point? vaseilesky? with or without kucherov they prolly win a cup or 2

Stl.. RoR?? tarasenko was invisible in the finals?

was.. kuznetsov easily carried the team??

chi.. toews?

pittsburgh malkin crosby?? Kessel is a by product of those 2?

 

imagine having a almost ppg 3rd liner and calling him trash.. whether he's slumping or not he's still one of the more productive player in the league even at the current age of 35.. 

 

that's a stupid take if u think you just slap any 3rd/4th line plugs with pastrnak and he will carry them.. that's basically what he'll be doing if he's playing 2nd line in vancouver lol with pius sutter as his center.

 

btw all those team won coz they have contribution up and down their line up.. in vancouver outside of the core players.. the contribution is neglible.

 

Uhhh what??  You asked me for premier wingers that helped to carry the team to the finals or won a Cup.  There was a very strong case for Marchessault, Kucherov, Ovechkin, Kane, and Kessel to win the Conn Smythes. 

 

I answered your question.  I never said the rest of their team(s) were not important.  I just argued that those 1W elite wingers often put the teams over the top.  I firmly disagree that if you took these guys out of the lineup that those teams would have likely won Cups.  Marchessault, Kucherov, Ovechkin, Kane, and Kessel in particular. 

 

I think it's stupid to just ignore facts and state your opinions.  I'm not the one that wrote the article.  Marchand isn't Marchand this season and so his coach decided he should be demoted.  Zacha is a 3rd line centre in any other circumstance.  It's hard to fathom, but Pastrnak is a very, very good hockey player and he's carrying that line. 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

3 hours ago, HKSR said:

With all due respect to Petey, right now Miller is the best centre on this team.  In fact, the reason the Canucks have looked mediocre for the past 10 to 12 games is because Petey has been playing so poorly.  

 

Pastrnak doesn't even need a top end 1C to score 40+ goals.  I guarantee if he was on this team with Blueger in the middle, we'd probably be 1st in the league right now.  I don't think you realize how difficult it is to shut down Pastrnak.

Miller is actually currently the best centre in the entire NHL, so to say that Miller is better than Petey right now isn’t a knock on Petey. 
 

Petey has been playing so poorly, yet points wise he is the second best centre in the NHL. That kinda tells you how good he really is. He can go into a slump because of an injury and still be top 10 in scoring in the NHL. 
 

As for Pastrnak, he is a great player. But I am always taking a 100 point centre over him. Especially a 100 point centre that plays a two way game and plays in all situations. 
 

Would you take Brett Hull over Sergei Fedorov or Pavel Datsyuk?  I wouldn’t. Nobody would. This is a similar debate. 

[Mando27]

4 hours ago, HKSR said:

With all due respect to Petey, right now Miller is the best centre on this team.  In fact, the reason the Canucks have looked mediocre for the past 10 to 12 games is because Petey has been playing so poorly.  

 

Pastrnak doesn't even need a top end 1C to score 40+ goals.  I guarantee if he was on this team with Blueger in the middle, we'd probably be 1st in the league right now.  I don't think you realize how difficult it is to shut down Pastrnak.

Agreed not to knock Petey he's a great player and all but Miller and Hughes have been the big drivers this season. Petey has looked off for awhile now, if he is actually injured they should just rest him a bit.

[HKSR]

14 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Miller is actually currently the best centre in the entire NHL, so to say that Miller is better than Petey right now isn’t a knock on Petey. 
 

Petey has been playing so poorly, yet points wise he is the second best centre in the NHL. That kinda tells you how good he really is. He can go into a slump because of an injury and still be top 10 in scoring in the NHL. 
 

As for Pastrnak, he is a great player. But I am always taking a 100 point centre over him. Especially a 100 point centre that plays a two way game and plays in all situations. 
 

Would you take Brett Hull over Sergei Fedorov or Pavel Datsyuk?  I wouldn’t. Nobody would. This is a similar debate. 

Depends... Petey hasn't shown the consistency or defensive prowess of a Datsyuk or Fedorov.  Those 2 are arguably a couple of the greatest defensive forwards to ever play the game. 

 

Petey gets Selke votes, but hasn't won.  He also has only one 100pt season under his belt.  Has only scored 30 goals or more twice.

 

Petey is a lot closer to Barkov than a Datsyuk or Fedorov.  I take Pastrnak over Barkov any day.

[Elias Pettersson]

7 hours ago, 43isprime said:

 

Yeah, and the relevant argument here is what..."I'll take it on blind faith that Pettersson is an elite number one center, and therefore he must have more value than any winger and is worth 11+"...well I guess you must be right

 

You're calling him an elite 90-100 PT center when he's averaged 1 ppg over his career? Like...what?

 

He's hit 100 pts exactly once, and that was with a winger who was shooting 27%.

 

Just because I don't put him in the same category as "Gretzky, Lemieux, Trottier, Messier, Sakic, Yzerman, Stamkos, MacKinnon, Kopitar, Toews, Eichel, Crosby" doesn't mean I'm trashing him.

 

Three weeks ago I didn't have an account. Our PDO was sitting at 109. We were the highest scoring team in the league. We'd scored 18 combined goals in two of our games. Everyone's stats were bloated; even Hughes was on pace for 130pts. 

 

The currently 7th leading scorer in the NHL is not worth $11 million+ per year because he has shown no evidence he can sustain elite production over multiple seasons. Instead, he has shown a pattern of high level play interspersed with prolonged slumps. And again, his stats are padded from that stretch with historically high team PDO. That's why.

 

So Petey’s stats are padded because of team play. Last year was a fluke. He only got 102 points because Kuzmenko was shooting at 27%. 
 

Petey is currently on pace for 105 points. Kuzmenko is shooting at 12%. So how is it possible that Petey is on pace for more points this year than last year?  Strange isn’t it. 
 

Maybe it’s because Petey is actually an elite 100 point centre. Could that be the reason?  
 

Aren’t two seasons considered “multiple” seasons?  Or do you have a different definition of multiple?  Do players need to sustain production over a 4-5 year period in order to get paid based on that production?  Is that how it works?  

[Elias Pettersson]

4 hours ago, HKSR said:

Exactly.  There ARE wingers more valuable than even some of the top centres in this league.  Right now, Pastrnak is the premier winger in this league.  He's on pace for nearly 50 goals playing with Pavel fricking Zacha.  

 

Pastrnak has 6 goals in his last 16 games. Dude is in a major slump. He’s definitely not worth over $11 million. 
 

Am I doing this right?  

[HKSR]

30 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

So Petey’s stats are padded because of team play. Last year was a fluke. He only got 102 points because Kuzmenko was shooting at 27%. 
 

Petey is currently on pace for 105 points. Kuzmenko is shooting at 12%. So how is it possible that Petey is on pace for more points this year than last year?  Strange isn’t it. 
 

Maybe it’s because Petey is actually an elite 100 point centre. Could that be the reason?  
 

Aren’t two seasons considered “multiple” seasons?  Or do you have a different definition of multiple?  Do players need to sustain production over a 4-5 year period in order to get paid based on that production?  Is that how it works?  

Yes.  Pastrnak has been a PPG or higher player for 6 years running.  I'm not even giving him credit for his 80pts in 82gms and 70pts in 75gms between 2016 and 2018.

 

Petey has been a PPG or higher player for 1 season so far... 2 if you are counting this season.  2 years ago Petey had 68 points in 80 games... a far cry from PPG.

 

How is their production even comparable at this stage?  Could Petey continue to improve?  Of course!  But RIGHT NOW, I'm sorry, but he's not a comparable player to Pastrnak.

[HKSR]

33 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Pastrnak has 6 goals in his last 16 games. Dude is in a major slump. He’s definitely not worth over $11 million. 
 

Am I doing this right?  

No. 

 

He has 6 points in his last 5 games.

 

15 points in his last 10 games.

 

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, HKSR said:

No. 

 

He has 6 points in his last 5 games.

 

15 points in his last 10 games.

 

 

Isn't Pastrnak paid to score goals, or has he now turned into a setup man?  Is Marchand the goal scorer on that line now?

[wai_lai416]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Isn't Pastrnak paid to score goals, or has he now turned into a setup man?  Is Marchand the goal scorer on that line now?

No Marchand is a plug that just got demoted to the 3rd line and soon out of the league.

 

they just keep moving the goal post. First it’s how many goal he’s score 60+ etc etc then when he’s not scoring well he’s a great playmaker now.. he’s also a turnover machine but thank god they have great d and goaltending 

Edited December 4, 2023 by wai_lai416

[Elias Pettersson]

7 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Yes.  Pastrnak has been a PPG or higher player for 6 years running.  I'm not even giving him credit for his 80pts in 82gms and 70pts in 75gms between 2016 and 2018.

 

Petey has been a PPG or higher player for 1 season so far... 2 if you are counting this season.  2 years ago Petey had 68 points in 80 games... a far cry from PPG.

 

How is their production even comparable at this stage?  Could Petey continue to improve?  Of course!  But RIGHT NOW, I'm sorry, but he's not a comparable player to Pastrnak.

 

Pastrnak is paid to score goals, that's why he's getting $11.25 million.  He has only hit 60 goals once, and is currently on pace for 47 goals this year.  A 47-goal scorer is not worth $11.25 million.  So, Pastrnak seems to be overpaid at this point. 

 

No, Petey isn't comparable to Pastrnak because Petey is a two-way 100-point centre, and Pastrnak is a one dimensional winger.  The two aren't comparable at all actually.  You are correct.  Two-way 100-point centres are much more valuable than one dimensional wingers...

[HKSR]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Isn't Pastrnak paid to score goals, or has he now turned into a setup man?  Is Marchand the goal scorer on that line now?

What?  Now you're just being facetious.  It's pretty obvious Pastrnak is an all around production machine.  Petey is not at that level right now.