[Report/Rumour] Elias Pettersson Contract Talks

[HKSR]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

EP is 25th in point the last 5 years for all forwards.   JT Miller is 9th, right behind Mathews.    A margin of 45 points.   McDavid has 70% more points there abouts, 224 more.   Draisatl, Mckinnon and Pastrnak all have 25 or more points on average, each season.    Panarin is next and also has considerably more as well.   Aho is just ahead of him right now.   Injuries and slumps were a factor..Buts is only a margin of 20-25 games.   That's it.  McKinnon who's 3rd, has 105 more points, in two less games.   Let's make this real folks.    Top five is a stretch.   That's right now too, not just the past. 

 

More than 10 yes.   Starting cap percentage in the 12.5  range, for me at least is about bang on.   14% tops, and that's for an 8 year deal.    It's not like he was paid poorly for his bridge either.  One year almost par value 2 over.   

 

Edit:  It's also fair to say, EP will be a top ten point getter over the next 5-7 years too.     At some point though, we do need to stop paying for potential.   Pretty sure what we see right now, this season and last season, is what we get.   That's top ten.    Which gets you a double digit contract.    10.9-11.   With the cap increase, basing it all on 87.5.    12.5%   That's a fair deal IMO.    Not a discount.   Pays most of the taxes on MT and Barkov's deals as well.     Sure hope so anyways.   Because I don't want to watch EP get torn to shreds on here if he isn't playing to his cap hit.   That sort of money, you par at around 100 points to start.   Doesn't need to score 110-120.   Don't really think that's where we should price him at to start.   Especially give his D game evolving.   

Nice analysis.  Good job.  I also think people are putting their expectations way too high.  I feel like some people think Petey will win an Art Ross, Selke, Lady Byng, Hart, Conn Smythe, and Stanley Cup all in a single season at some point in the future 

 

Petey will be a top 10 scorer/player at his peak, assuming he stays healthy for 82 games.  Given his history and durability, I'd be surprised to see him in the same conversation as the Mackinnons in the league.

[HKSR]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

Don't think anyone is saying saying EP isn't the better player, the point is, it doesn't make a lot of sense that he gets paid 50% more either.   Close to 10% of the cap isn't chump change.   If you're making 14% plus of the cap, and don't perform like a top five player league wide, the team suffers.   Naslund got the most so far, 13.6%, and that was after proving he was the best LW in the league, and arguably the best player in the world.    Guess what that equals? The Sedins got a five year at less then 11%.   After several years of a PPG, in a flat cap dynamic.   That's a 9.5ish - 11.92 range.    Naslund's was a UFA deal as well.    Only other player to get close to that was Luongo's short Nonis deal when he first came in.    Have zero issue with 12, just saying that we'd need him to actually be the best if he's going to be paid like the best.   So far, he's not even the best forward on his own team this season, and well Miller has been the best overall since his arrival.    At some point you need to stop paying for potential.    Unless he explodes down the stretch,  fully expect to see the deal under 11.   Think Barkov/MT, not Mckinnon. 

I'm with you 100%.  10.5 to 11 is where I hope it lands.

[wai_lai416]

On 12/17/2023 at 6:51 AM, HKSR said:

Nice analysis.  Good job.  I also think people are putting their expectations way too high.  I feel like some people think Petey will win an Art Ross, Selke, Lady Byng, Hart, Conn Smythe, and Stanley Cup all in a single season at some point in the future 

 

Petey will be a top 10 scorer/player at his peak, assuming he stays healthy for 82 games.  Given his history and durability, I'd be surprised to see him in the same conversation as the Mackinnons in the league.

given his history and durability?? he had 1 significant injury in 6 season in a lost and shortened season and you guys act like he's injury prone and get injured every single season or something.. mackinnon missed more games than EP in the same span.. not even sure why this stupid take keeps being brought up.. durability lol..

[HKSR]

2 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

given his history and durability?? he had 1 significant injury in 6 season in a lost and shortened season and you guys act like he's injury prone and get injured every single season or something.. mackinnon missed more games than EP in the same span.. not even sure why this stupid take keeps being brought up.. durability lol..

Technically the guy has yet to play 100% of the games in a single season since he entered the league.

 

[wai_lai416]

28 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Technically the guy has yet to play 100% of the games in a single season since he entered the league.

 

ok so they rest him for 1 or 2 game in a 82 season = he's injury prone okie

[Elias Pettersson]

3 hours ago, HKSR said:

Technically the guy has yet to play 100% of the games in a single season since he entered the league.

 

So if a player misses one game in a season he is deemed “injury prone”?  Is that your definition?  If the player wakes up with the flu he is injury prone?

 

FYI, both McDavid and MacKinnon have missed more games in their careers than Petey has. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

So if a player misses one game in a season he is deemed “injury prone”?  Is that your definition?  If the player wakes up with the flu he is injury prone?

 

FYI, both McDavid and MacKinnon have missed more games in their careers than Petey has. 

like i understand some of the takes regarding EP.. but the durability one is the dumbest one that's constantly being brought up.. he had 3 injury to this date in 5+ seasons.. of the 3 injury there was only 1 injury that was a hockey play related.. the wrist injury that made him miss half the shortened season.. the other 2 injury one was a body slam on his head and they prolly kept him out longer for precaution.. and the other was a cheap can opener by KK.. both were cheap shots not exactly a hockey play.. if that was done to any other player even the iron man in this league.. i'm sure they would be injured too.. but let's blame EP for being injury prone because he was cheap shotted... imagine getting cheap shotted and cross checked in the head or something.. and then your fan base questions your durability.. how dare you get injured by a hit to the head.. you should just walk it off... or instead of getting can opened by KK.. he should have used his legs to snap kk's stick in half... EP is incredibily durable for how skinny he is and his wilingness to hit ppl and how often he blocks shots.. he and Miller are top 2 in hits and blocks out of the top 10 players in scoring.. and then we compare Miller and EP's size.. youd have to wonder how EP manage to still be in 1 piece.

[HKSR]

8 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

ok so they rest him for 1 or 2 game in a 82 season = he's injury prone okie

 

5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

So if a player misses one game in a season he is deemed “injury prone”?  Is that your definition?  If the player wakes up with the flu he is injury prone?

 

FYI, both McDavid and MacKinnon have missed more games in their careers than Petey has. 

And so we just ignore the other seasons where he missed more than 1 or 2? And we ignore this season where the excuse for his poor performance for over a month is that it is related to an injury?  Which is probably the same reason for his slumps those other seasons where he only missed 1 or 2 games too.

[Elias Pettersson]

5 hours ago, HKSR said:

 

And so we just ignore the other seasons where he missed more than 1 or 2? And we ignore this season where the excuse for his poor performance for over a month is that it is related to an injury?  Which is probably the same reason for his slumps those other seasons where he only missed 1 or 2 games too.

Both McDavid and MacKinnon have missed major time with injury. McDavid missed 37 games in his very first season. Are you going to state that both McDavid and MacKinnon are also injury prone as per your definition?

[HKSR]

4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Both McDavid and MacKinnon have missed major time with injury. McDavid missed 37 games in his very first season. Are you going to state that both McDavid and MacKinnon are also injury prone as per your definition?

Don't really care when it comes to a generational talent like McDavid.  Nor do I really care when it comes to a perennial superstar in Mackinnon.  When Petey strings together 6 to 7 years of high level performance, I'll cut him more slack.

[Elias Pettersson]

Just now, HKSR said:

Don't really care when it comes to a generational talent like McDavid.  Nor do I really care when it comes to a perennial superstar in Mackinnon.  When Petey strings together 6 to 7 years of high level performance, I'll cut him more slack.

So McDavid isn’t considered to be injury prone because he’s a generational talent?  Is this satire?  

[HKSR]

13 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

So McDavid isn’t considered to be injury prone because he’s a generational talent?  Is this satire?  

No the problem with Petey being injury prone is that his production doesn't make up for it like mcdavid does.

 

Mcdavid can miss 18 games in a season and still put up 97 points.  Please, you gotta stop comparing Petey with these guys.  He's never gonna be at that level.

[Elias Pettersson]

21 minutes ago, HKSR said:

No the problem with Petey being injury prone is that his production doesn't make up for it like mcdavid does.

 

Mcdavid can miss 18 games in a season and still put up 97 points.  Please, you gotta stop comparing Petey with these guys.  He's never gonna be at that level.

 

I'm not comparing Petey to anybody.  You are using that as some type of red herring to cover for your obvious ludicrous take that McDavid's injuries don't matter because he is a generational talent, so that somehow nullifies him from being injury prone.  Do you even hear yourself speaking right now?

 

Was Bobby Orr injury prone, or did he get a free pass because he was a generational talent?  How about Cale Makar, who has never played a full season in the NHL.  Is he injury prone or does he also get a free pass because he's a borderline generational talent?

 

I'm just really confused on your take on all of this.  Why can't you just admit that your take on this is wrong and that Petey isn't really injury prone instead of digging that hole deeper and deeper and then keep accusing me of comparing Petey to McDavid to try and change the conversation?

Edited December 20, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[HKSR]

20 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I'm not comparing Petey to anybody.  You are using that as some type of red herring to cover for your obvious ludicrous take that McDavid's injuries don't matter because he is a generational talent, so that somehow nullifies him from being injury prone.  Do you even hear yourself speaking right now?

 

Was Bobby Orr injury prone, or did he get a free pass because he was a generational talent?  How about Cale Makar, who has never played a full season in the NHL.  Is he injury prone or does he also get a free pass because he's a borderline generational talent?

 

I'm just really confused on your take on all of this.  Why can't you just admit that your take on this is wrong and that Petey isn't really injury prone instead of digging that hole deeper and deeper and then keep accusing me of comparing Petey to McDavid to try and change the conversation?

It's true, it doesn't matter with McDavid because he still produces what a 'regular star' produces in a season.  That's what I'm getting at.  If Petey got 97 points in a season, we'd be pretty happy.  McDavid can do it playing 15 to 20 games less.  

 

Again, why are you continuing to compare Petey with McDavid and generational talents?  Petey is lucky to even be considered a top 5 centre, let alone a generational talent.  

Makar does get a pass.  Like last year, he only played 60 games (missing 22 games), yet was still top 10 in defencemen scoring.  

 

I can't admit that I'm wrong because my take is that Petey has trouble staying healthy for a full season and it makes a difference.  He gets some kinda injury and then he goes into a slump.  Just like this year.  Sometimes he gets an injury that keeps him out of the lineup completely.  When Petey gets injured, so does his production.  That's the problem.  Generational talents don't run into the same problem.  Their offensive output is so high that missing 15 to 20 games means they just come down to a 'star' player level.  They basically become a Pettersson instead of staying at the level of a McDavid.

[Elias Pettersson]

10 minutes ago, HKSR said:

It's true, it doesn't matter with McDavid because he still produces what a 'regular star' produces in a season.  That's what I'm getting at.  If Petey got 97 points in a season, we'd be pretty happy.  McDavid can do it playing 15 to 20 games less.  

 

Again, why are you continuing to compare Petey with McDavid and generational talents?  Petey is lucky to even be considered a top 5 centre, let alone a generational talent.  

Makar does get a pass.  Like last year, he only played 60 games (missing 22 games), yet was still top 10 in defencemen scoring.  

 

I can't admit that I'm wrong because my take is that Petey has trouble staying healthy for a full season and it makes a difference.  He gets some kinda injury and then he goes into a slump.  Just like this year.  Sometimes he gets an injury that keeps him out of the lineup completely.  When Petey gets injured, so does his production.  That's the problem.  Generational talents don't run into the same problem.  Their offensive output is so high that missing 15 to 20 games means they just come down to a 'star' player level.  They basically become a Pettersson instead of staying at the level of a McDavid.

 

You claim that Petey has trouble staying healthy and is injury prone.  Yet, when McDavid gets injured you claim that he is not injury prone because he can just make up the difference with points even if he only plays 60 games.  Do you know how absurd this sounds?  A player's production has nothing to do with whether they are injury prone or not.  If Bobby Orr can only play 30 games per year but still outscore all other defencemen, does that nullify the fact that he can't stay healthy and is injury prone?

 

I don't think we are getting anywhere with this as you just can't admit that you are wrong.  And for the last time, just because I mention Petey and McDavid in the same sentence it doesn't mean I am comparing them.  I know you are doing this on purpose to deflect from your ludicrous take that McDavid cannot ever be injury prone no matter how many games he misses because he is a generational talent.

 

I think we can safely say that this argument is closed.  On to the next one...

[HKSR]

I don't think any of us would care if Petey got injured and put up 97 points in 65 games.  It's the fact that when Petey gets injured, he turns into a 50 point pace guy that's an issue.  So yes, it does make a big difference in terms of production from injuries.  

 

You're not even trying to hear me out.  I'm saying the problem with Petey being injury prone is we lose his production.  With McDavid, even if he's injured, he still puts up nearly 100pts a season.  Generational vs star level.  

 

PS - I NEVER said McDavid or Mackinnon are not injury prone.  I've been talking about even with their injuries, because they're such elite talents that it doesn't matter as much.

[wai_lai416]

lol whether a player is injury prone or not is based on whether or not he’s a generational talent or his production rate.. okay.. so I guess if EP missed 2 games a season the rest of his career he’s the softest injury prone player in Canucks history. You have the dumbest take and reasonings ever on this one. Who gives a f how much production a players give if he’s going to miss 10-20% of a season? Like if he scores 3-4 points a game does that help his team win while he’s injured? 
 

by your standard miller is injury prone too since the only season he played all the game was the bubble season when the regular season was cancelled

[HKSR]

1 minute ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol whether a player is injury prone or not is based on whether or not he’s a generational talent or his production rate.. okay.. so I guess if EP missed 2 games a season the rest of his career he’s the softest injury prone player in Canucks history. You have the dumbest take and reasonings ever on this one. Who gives a f how much production a players give if he’s going to miss 10-20% of a season? Like if he scores 3-4 points a game does that help his team win while he’s injured? 
 

by your standard miller is injury prone too since the only season he played all the game was the bubble season when the regular season was cancelled

I'm sorry the concept of production in games played is difficult for you to understand.  Let me try again.  When Petey gets injured, and assuming he continues playing through the injury, he turns into a 50 point player.  He no longer produces more than a PPG.  When McDavid gets injured, he continues to be a force on the ice scoring at a greater than 1.0 PPG.  That's a huge difference.  And yes, it does make a huge difference if a player scores 3 to 4 points a game while he's playing because the likelihood is that team is gonna be winning a lot more than the player that shrinks into a 0.5 PPG player while he's playing.  So yes, I do care about Petey's injury history because historically, it means reduced production on a per game basis.  

 

But again, it's absolutely stupid to be comparing McDavid and Petey in the first place.  

 

And come on, Petey gets the benefit of the doubt all the time, but let's face it, he's played pretty shitty for over a month now.  If this was Miller, he would have been kicked to the curb weeks ago even though he's the one that has shown the most consistency year after year in a Canucks uniform.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Just for fun

 

Petey + Willander

 

for

 

Hughes bros.

[wai_lai416]

5 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I'm sorry the concept of production in games played is difficult for you to understand.  Let me try again.  When Petey gets injured, and assuming he continues playing through the injury, he turns into a 50 point player.  He no longer produces more than a PPG.  When McDavid gets injured, he continues to be a force on the ice scoring at a greater than 1.0 PPG.  That's a huge difference.  And yes, it does make a huge difference if a player scores 3 to 4 points a game while he's playing because the likelihood is that team is gonna be winning a lot more than the player that shrinks into a 0.5 PPG player while he's playing.  So yes, I do care about Petey's injury history because historically, it means reduced production on a per game basis.  

 

But again, it's absolutely stupid to be comparing McDavid and Petey in the first place.  

 

And come on, Petey gets the benefit of the doubt all the time, but let's face it, he's played pretty shitty for over a month now.  If this was Miller, he would have been kicked to the curb weeks ago even though he's the one that has shown the most consistency year after year in a Canucks uniform.

no one is making the comparision to mcdavid and ep. so how do you know if a player is playing thru an injury? it's based on actual facts? or because you said so? so mcdavid is on and off this year.. is he playing thru an injury? he didn't score last night.. so was he playing thru an injury too? he's scoring at 2-3 ppg in this last 12+ games or so.. is his team winning? or is EP struggling because of the players around him struggling?? kuzmenko is struggling to the point he's in the pressbox? how about we play EP with hughes/hronek full time for a few games like miller gets hughes and hronek 95% of the time and let see if quality of players will actually affect production? 

 

EP gets 0 benefit of the doubt here.. all the time?? you guys jumped all over him in the 3rd season when he had a slow start and the the wrist injury.. and again you guys were all over him the first half of the season when he and hughes held out for the contract.. and again this last month or so.. EP have 3 f*king injury in his career and only 1 was a legitimate hockey play related one but you are claiming he's injury prone and injured all the time.. everytime he goes in a slump = he's must be injured so therefore he's injury prone.. dumb take.. mcdavid scoring 3-4 points a game while playing increase the likelihood of winning? no shit.. did mcdavid ever avg 3-4 points a game?? no? if a player avg 2 points a game or close.. aka mcdavid.. does not increase the likelihood of winning? no? not really because the rest of the team have to back him up?

 

show me in the injury history of mcdavid he's playing thru an injury and then continue to produce at over 1 ppg?? Mcdavid literally never plays thru a injury unless he's 90-95% healed nor would the oilers risk playing injured.

[Coconuts]

Pettersson for Raymond, Ballard, and a 1st

[Sophomore Jinx]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Pettersson for Raymond, Ballard, and a 1st

I see the stakes have been raised!

 

The status quo used to be Raymond, Ballard, and a 2nd!

 

Git 'er done PA

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, Sophomore Jinx said:

I see the stakes have been raised!

 

The status quo used to be Raymond, Ballard, and a 2nd!

 

Git 'er done PA

 

Hey, a well known hockey forum called CDC insists that's a valuable package, we really should consider it!

[HKSR]

3 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

no one is making the comparision to mcdavid and ep. so how do you know if a player is playing thru an injury? it's based on actual facts? or because you said so? so mcdavid is on and off this year.. is he playing thru an injury? he didn't score last night.. so was he playing thru an injury too? he's scoring at 2-3 ppg in this last 12+ games or so.. is his team winning? or is EP struggling because of the players around him struggling?? kuzmenko is struggling to the point he's in the pressbox? how about we play EP with hughes/hronek full time for a few games like miller gets hughes and hronek 95% of the time and let see if quality of players will actually affect production? 

 

EP gets 0 benefit of the doubt here.. all the time?? you guys jumped all over him in the 3rd season when he had a slow start and the the wrist injury.. and again you guys were all over him the first half of the season when he and hughes held out for the contract.. and again this last month or so.. EP have 3 f*king injury in his career and only 1 was a legitimate hockey play related one but you are claiming he's injury prone and injured all the time.. everytime he goes in a slump = he's must be injured so therefore he's injury prone.. dumb take.. mcdavid scoring 3-4 points a game while playing increase the likelihood of winning? no shit.. did mcdavid ever avg 3-4 points a game?? no? if a player avg 2 points a game or close.. aka mcdavid.. does not increase the likelihood of winning? no? not really because the rest of the team have to back him up?

 

show me in the injury history of mcdavid he's playing thru an injury and then continue to produce at over 1 ppg?? Mcdavid literally never plays thru a injury unless he's 90-95% healed nor would the oilers risk playing injured.

If Petey isn't playing through an injury right now, then I have even more concerns.  Means he's just a streaky player (which I've also considered him to be as well).  

 

If Petey IS injured, then maybe he just shouldn't be playing.  I'd rather have him out of the lineup and at 100% upon his return than have him limp through this season without fully recovering for the playoffs.

 

BTW, injury prone doesn't differentiate between hockey play or not.  Ask Tanev.

[Jester13]

3 hours ago, Sophomore Jinx said:

I see the stakes have been raised!

 

The status quo used to be Raymond, Ballard, and a 2nd!

 

Git 'er done PA

Mandela effect. I remember it as always being a 1st. I tried searching back on CDC once and only found 1st. Maybe 2nd originated from another platform like Reddit? Uggh, this has been bothering me for a while now, ha!