[Report/Rumour] Elias Pettersson Contract Talks

[cripplereh]

Wow have to shake my head on how people think EL is insurance in case EP doesn't resign.

 

I think it is their intention to resign him lower then he is worth given his numbers this season.

 

Makes more sense to keep EP then EL as he is younger and better.

 

Say EL doesn't resign.At the draft you could flip him with a sign and trade or without signing for a first and better prospect.

 

This management group is more willing then any GM since Pat Quinn to deal big and get players we need to succeed.

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, cripplereh said:

Wow have to shake my head on how people think EL is insurance in case EP doesn't resign.

 

I think it is their intention to resign him lower then he is worth given his numbers this season.

 

Makes more sense to keep EP then EL as he is younger and better.

 

Say EL doesn't resign.At the draft you could flip him with a sign and trade or without signing for a first and better prospect.

 

This management group is more willing then any GM since Pat Quinn to deal big and get players we need to succeed.

 

I don't think Lindholm's rights are worth a 1st and prospect. 

 

Maybe if he was an RFA and was having a better year. 

[cripplereh]

2 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

I don't think Lindholm's rights are worth a 1st and prospect. 

 

Maybe if he was an RFA and was having a better year. 

Being one of the top 2way centers I think he is.

 

Plus being right handed and can play both PP and PK a full packaged player yes he is.

[Alflives]

Petey will extend for 4 x 9.5. The empties have spoken. All bow  

[Alflives]

Just now, cripplereh said:

Being one of the top 2way centers I think he is.

 

Plus being right handed and can play both PP and PK a full packaged player yes he is.

It’s like the same arguments with the same posters from the Hronek trade. I guess some fans just don’t understand how good Lindholm (and Hronek last year) is. 

[cripplereh]

Just now, Alflives said:

It’s like the same arguments with the same posters from the Hronek trade. I guess some fans just don’t understand how good Lindholm (and Hronek last year) is. 

Exactly.

 

Building a winner without pieces costs you.You add up both trades from the flames and they even out as we got two players that make this team way better.

 

Hronek people were mad at the first it cost us.

 

Well he is one of the top D in the league and has so far done his job as management thought.

 

He should be in the all star game.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, cripplereh said:

Exactly.

 

Building a winner without pieces costs you.You add up both trades from the flames and they even out as we got two players that make this team way better.

 

Hronek people were mad at the first it cost us.

 

Well he is one of the top D in the league and has so far done his job as management thought.

 

He should be in the all star game.

Yup, clearly we have some incredibly dumbo fans. Might be some of the dumboist dumbos in the league. 

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, cripplereh said:

Being one of the top 2way centers I think he is.

 

Plus being right handed and can play both PP and PK a full packaged player yes he is.

 

He is having an off-year so far and teams can wait for him to fall to Free Agency instead of spending premium assets. No team is gonna spend those assets. Have only ever seen RFAs rights get that. UFAs rights have gone for much much less. 

 

He will also get a lot more on the open market if he wants a payday. Only real chance I see him signing before Free Agency is with the Canucks since he would have a feel for the team/city and can see if he likes it here and wants to stay. Getting his rights traded in the off-season warrants no feel, no ties with whomever trades for him.

 

[J-23]

2 hours ago, tas said:

can you link the quote?

He did a podcast with Ray not too long ago, it was posted earlier. Not the exact quote but in summary he said no side wants Pettersson to sign a 1 year and leave.

 

It’s a good podcast for anyone that thinks Pettersson is leaving. I got that idea from it that Pettersson is undecided as to whether he wants a long-term deal or a 4-5 year deal like Matthews right now.

 

If I remember correctly he did also say contract talks have started.

Said contract talks take months. Also he generally said that he understands that teams can’t win with 3-4 guys taking up most of the cap. This was a general statement unrelated to the Pettersson contract but maybe it’s a hint that Pettersson might take a discount.

 

I guess anything can happen though.

[cripplereh]

4 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

He is having an off-year so far and teams can wait for him to fall to Free Agency instead of spending premium assets. No team is gonna spend those assets. Have only ever seen RFAs rights get that. UFAs rights have gone for much much less. 

 

He will also get a lot more on the open market if he wants a payday. Only real chance I see him signing before Free Agency is with the Canucks since he would have a feel for the team/city and can see if he likes it here and wants to stay. Getting his rights traded in the off-season warrants no feel, no ties with whomever trades for him.

 

Has happened a sign and trade.Alsi a player has been traded at the draft without a contract to a team he wants to go.So yes it happens.

[Junkyard Dog]

1 minute ago, cripplereh said:

Has happened a sign and trade.Alsi a player has been traded at the draft without a contract to a team he wants to go.So yes it happens.

 

There's only ever really been trade and signs, and not at that price with UFAs, in the off-season. Definitely has been high returns with trade and signs around the trade deadline where teams re-signed would be rentals but that cost came from adding a player for a cup run and outbidding other teams that wanted said player for said cup run. 

 

Tkachuk was an RFA if that's who you were implying. He's considered to be the first true sign and trade. 

 

 

[aGENT]

Rutherford on Donnie and Dhali earlier saying he wasn't concerned about not signing Pettersson until the offseason, and that he had no intention of throwing a wrench in his, or the team's good season by forcing it (paraphrasing).

[cripplereh]

4 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

There's only ever really been trade and signs, and not at that price with UFAs, in the off-season. Definitely has been high returns with trade and signs around the trade deadline where teams re-signed would be rentals but that cost came from adding a player for a cup run and outbidding other teams that wanted said player for said cup run. 

 

Tkachuk was an RFA if that's who you were implying. He's considered to be the first true sign and trade. 

 

 

June 5, 2014: The Sharks trade the rights to coveted impending UFA Dan Boyle to the Islanders for a conditional fifth-round pick in the 2015. As with Ehrhoff four years earlier, the Isles can't come to terms with the defenceman.  

 

has happened.

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, cripplereh said:

June 5, 2014: The Sharks trade the rights to coveted impending UFA Dan Boyle to the Islanders for a conditional fifth-round pick in the 2015. As with Ehrhoff four years earlier, the Isles can't come to terms with the defenceman.  

 

has happened.

 

That didn't dispute anything I said. I never said UFAs rights don't get traded, I said they don't get traded for premium assets like a 1st and prospect.

 

They traded for his rights. For a conditional pick. Condition being he re-signed. For a 5th, potential 4th. Mid round picks happen a lot for UFAs rights during the offseason.

 

Find me a 1st and prospect for a UFAs rights during the off-season. 

[cripplereh]

47 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

That didn't dispute anything I said. I never said UFAs rights don't get traded, I said they don't get traded for premium assets like a 1st and prospect.

 

They traded for his rights. For a conditional pick. Condition being he re-signed. For a 5th, potential 4th. Mid round picks happen a lot for UFAs rights during the offseason.

 

Find me a 1st and prospect for a UFAs rights during the off-season. 

How about do your own research and think Gretzky trade that would never happen.

 

That alone says anything can.

[MJDDawg]

7 hours ago, EdgarM said:

 

With the accumulation of another top 6 center(lindholm), this pretty much convinces me he is gone. 

I seen it with Bo and I seen it with Petey in how he has handled this whole thing with his contract.

Personally I wouldn't even give him a shot at the playoffs with us this year and I don't see him going any farther then the trade dead line. 

Realistically, I see him fetching us at least a good top 6 winger and maybe more. If we can get a Tuch type player to play with Lindholm I would be ecstatic.

It would also give us the much needed cap space to resign key players we have recently accumulated like Hronek and Lindholm next year.

Good post. Agree with you here. I’ve had a weird vibe from Petey since last season and feel Lindholm is insurance. I’ve also wondered if there’s more to the story here that we just don’t know about yet and this Lindholm trade is just strong advanced planning be some smart hockey people who won’t be “running out of time” when things go down with Petey.

 

I’d hope any return from a Petey trade would be more than just one Tuch type player but I also realize that the team trading the best player never really wins the trade.  It’s the additional draft picks, prospects and cap space that will tilt the deal in our favour.

 

Maybe I’d feel differently about trading Petey if I believed he was worth the type of money being bandied about, but I don’t believe he is. 
 

One just needs to look at the top heavy Leafs to understand that a top heavy cap structure makes it really difficult to ice a balanced and competitive lineup of 4 lines like we have right now.

 

So I’m down for trading Petey to restock some draft capital and prospects, resigning some of our free agents and filling out the lineup with one or two new quality players in order to continue to run a 4 line team. 

[Junkyard Dog]

46 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

How about do your own research and think Gretzky trade that would never happen.

 

That alone says anything can.

 

It's not my point to prove. 

 

Pre-Salary cap era where you could pay cash for players? Not comparable.

[cripplereh]

52 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

It's not my point to prove. 

 

Pre-Salary cap era where you could pay cash for players? Not comparable.

Just my point was it happens and did.

I proved my point.Whar happens in the future I can't predict but said a trade could.

 

Now you are adding pre cap lol if course you have to add.

Edited February 2 by cripplereh

[Junkyard Dog]

6 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

Just my point was it happens and did.

I proved my point.Whar happens in the future I can't predict but said a trade could.

 

Now you are adding pre cap lol if course you have to add.

 

My point wasn't that trades don't happen. I never argued against that trades for rights don't happen. My point was that trades don't happen for UFA rights for a 1st and a prospect which you proposed.

 

What you initially said and what I responded to. 

 

3 hours ago, cripplereh said:

Say EL doesn't resign.At the draft you could flip him with a sign and trade or without signing for a first and better prospect.

 

What I said in response. 

 

3 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

I don't think Lindholm's rights are worth a 1st and prospect. 

 

Maybe if he was an RFA and was having a better year. 

 

 

We could probably trade Lindholm's right for a 5th or 4th or maybe a 3rd if we got lucky. That's what UFA rights usually go for just like the example you provided. 

 

I would rather re-sign him if it works personally. I think he will be a fit and Tocchet will like him as a player. 

[cripplereh]

5 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

My point wasn't that trades don't happen. I never argued against that trades for rights don't happen. My point was that trades don't happen for UFA rights for a 1st and a prospect which you proposed.

 

What you initially said and what I responded to. 

 

 

What I said in response. 

 

 

 

We could probably trade Lindholm's right for a 5th or 4th or maybe a 3rd if we got lucky. That's what UFA rights usually go for just like the example you provided. 

 

I would rather re-sign him if it works personally. I think he will be a fit and Tocchet will like him as a player. 

I get it but say pre salary cap , well Gretzky handshake deal went to Edmonton instead of Winnipeg.

 

Lots happened pre cap but now won't.

[Junkyard Dog]

13 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

I get it but say pre salary cap , well Gretzky handshake deal went to Edmonton instead of Winnipeg.

 

Lots happened pre cap but now won't.

 

Where are you going with this?

 

I am not sure the correlation with Lindholm's UFA rights trade value which is what the point my first reply cemented. I have only ever stayed on that point. 

[cripplereh]

Just saying ng that yes ufa's have a price and in the past yes deals were done way different then now.Just stating that in the future this sorta of thing will happen again.We might see salary caps gone meaning deals like in the past might just happen.

 

If the NHL wants to be a bigger better league they have to be more like football as we call soccer.If so what GM's pay now will be nothing.

 

 

I have watched the game for 47 years.

Getting Bettman gone and a real leader for growing the game right we might just see it.

But when you said not pre salary ufa trades you made my point and like I said we will see those days again.

[Optimist Prime]

The one thing I am now worried about is too many loose ends. in reality right now our top 2 C, both of them, in Petey and now Lindholm, are not signed for next year, but the good news is one of them is an RFA. So many UFA/RFA's right now has my anxiety up. 11 main roster guys not under contract for next season means flexibility but also a swiss cheese roster post July 1st. The upside is Petey and Hronek are RFA so Canucks control where they will play, just not for how much or how long. Another good upside is everyone in the minors right now that will be re-signed is an RFA as well. 9 UFA's though, wow. Joshua is an important piece, imo and perhaps the most important of the UFA's

Forwards by importance to re-sign:

Petey

Lindholm

Joshua

Blueger

Lafferty

Dmen by importance to re-sign

Hronek
Cole

Zadorov

Myers(substantially less dollars than current iteration)

Friedman

Tendie to re-sign
DeSMith

[Bob Long]

13 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol vancouver have a toxic fan base period.. he doesn't want to talk contract during season? how dare him? he doesn't want to sign for as much as miller? the guy leads the team in 5v5 production and leads the team by a country mile in points that doesn't involve hughes miller boeser but he sucks. the latest one he doesn't want to talk contract during the season = he doesn't want to help us win a cup this year. let's run him out of town

 

You seem to like throwing "toxic" out there a lot. 

[Provost]

11 hours ago, cripplereh said:

Wow have to shake my head on how people think EL is insurance in case EP doesn't resign.

 

I think it is their intention to resign him lower then he is worth given his numbers this season.

 

Makes more sense to keep EP then EL as he is younger and better.

 

Say EL doesn't resign.At the draft you could flip him with a sign and trade or without signing for a first and better prospect.

 

This management group is more willing then any GM since Pat Quinn to deal big and get players we need to succeed.

I have to shake my head my head at people who don’t think Lindholm is an insurance policy against Petterson not Re-signing.

 

Especially when their posts don’t have any actual content to support their positions.

 

Of course the team wants to extend Petterson, and at a number that is fair market value but also lets them build a team around him.  They have wanted to do that for months, but the player simply doesn’t want to engage in negotiations and commit to the team.  That refusal to commit is literally hampering the ability for management to sign other players and make moves for the future.

 

It just may be that there isn’t interest on the part of the player to extend long term.  His agent has already publicly floated the idea of taking a one year arbitration and walking himself to free agency.  This is an agent who already had the player hold out of training camp to squeeze out more money.

 

Lindholm comes in as both a way to increase leverage in a Petterson negotiation, and a back up plan in case Petterson just doesn’t sign on the dotted line or wants to hold out to be the top paid player in the league (when he is the 3rd best player on our team).

 

In negotiation theory there is something called a BATNA.  “Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement”.  The idea is that before a negotiation you increase your BATNA to put yourself in a better position if the agreement doesn’t happen.  That increases your leverage and decreases the chance you are backed into a corner and forced to sign a bad deal.  It gives you a “walk away” point that you are comfortable with.

 

Without Lindholm, the back up plan for the Canucks without Petterson is to be absolutely screwed next season.  With Lindholm as a BATNA, the team is fine and maybe even in a better spot when you consider the massive return Petterson would garner in trade and the cap space it would open up.

 

For a $13 million Petterson cap hit you could afford Lindholm, Tanev, and raises to Joshua and Blueger.  A trade return would include something like a significant blue chip prospect (think Jiricek level), a solid roster player, and at least one 1st round pick.

 

So as a BATNA, the team isn’t in worse shape if we have to move on from Petterson and could actually be in better shape both in the short term and long term.  That is a really nice negotiating position to be in as it takes almost all the  pressure off you.

 

Ideally Petterson signs a reasonable deal, but picking up Lindholm was even a bigger move than just what he can do for us in the next four months.  Someone in the front office knows what they are doing.  It is the reverse of Benning who seemed to make moves specifically to put himself in bad negotiating positions.