HKSR Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 2 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said: ok? ask pastrnak to play with with geekie frederic poitras debrusk and whatever the hell they have on the 3rd/4th line consistently and continue to perform at his current performance and i'll shut the hell up? coz that's pretty much boston's equivalent to what EP is playing with He spent a big chunk of this year playing with Zacha and Vanriemsdyk because Marchand was playing so badly he was demoted down the lineup. In fact, he's back with Zacha and Vanriemsdyk now. Pastrnak carries his line. Petey does not. Know your facts. https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/teams/boston-bruins/line-combinations https://bostonhockeynow.com/2023/11/29/boston-bruins-marchand-gets-demoted-in-montgomery-line-shuffling/ Petey is not Pastrnak. It's the bias you have as a Canucks fan that has you under rating Pastrnak and over rating Petey. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 12 minutes ago, HKSR said: He spent a big chunk of this year playing with Zacha and Vanriemsdyk because Marchand was playing so badly he was demoted down the lineup. In fact, he's back with Zacha and Vanriemsdyk now. Pastrnak carries his line. Petey does not. Know your facts. https://www.dailyfaceoff.com/teams/boston-bruins/line-combinations https://bostonhockeynow.com/2023/11/29/boston-bruins-marchand-gets-demoted-in-montgomery-line-shuffling/ Petey is not Pastrnak. It's the bias you have as a Canucks fan that has you under rating Pastrnak and over rating Petey. lol have you looked at majority of pastrnak's points? 2/3rd of his points mcavoy and marchand are in on it.. you know their other top 2 player on the team? and he floats between the lines at time.. is EP better than Pastrnak offensively?? prolly not? but he does a lot of thing defensively that pastrnak doesn't do like blocking shots? and even zacha and JVR is better than your suter and mikheyev.. hard to carry a line when you have career 3rd/4th liner playing on the top scoring line against other teams top shutdown lines honestly i don't care about your opinion just like you don't have to care about mine coz you think i'm bias and i think you are bias coz you think him yawning during a break is bad for the team and shows he's not professional or whatever. there's already blogs and post from scientific research regarding to why athlete yawns but you wouldn't care coz it must mean he's falling asleep and don't give a fuk about the game Edited February 12 by wai_lai416 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 7 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said: lol have you looked at majority of pastrnak's points? 2/3rd of his points mcavoy and marchand are in on it.. you know their other top 2 player on the team? and he floats between the lines at time.. is EP better than Pastrnak offensively?? prolly not? but he does a lot of thing defensively that pastrnak doesn't do like blocking shots? and even zacha and JVR is better than your suter and mikheyev.. hard to carry a line when you have career 3rd/4th liner playing on the top scoring line against other teams top shutdown lines honestly i don't care about your opinion just like you don't have to care about mine coz you think i'm bias and i think you are bias coz you think him yawning during a break is bad for the team and shows he's not professional or whatever. there's already blogs and post from scientific research regarding to why athlete yawns but you wouldn't care coz it must mean he's falling asleep and don't give a fuk about the game LOL! Talk about moving goal posts. Your first sentence here... GOAL POST MOVED. I literally pointed out that Pasta played a huge chunk of this season with Zacha and Vanriemsdyk and you wouldn't have it, so you go and change it to Marchand and Mcavoy? How many points has Petey got where Hughes and Miller/Boeser are in on it? And EP doesn't float between the lines on the Canucks? Last I checked, he racked up a ton of points with the Lotto Line reunited. Zacha and Vanriemsdyk are prototypical 3rd liners. Pastrnak is what carries the entire line. Zacha was a 30 to 35 point guy until he played a whole season with Pasta last year. Even this year, he's probably barely gonna crack 50 points if he even gets there. Vanriemsdyk is a 34 year old that put up 29 points in 61 games last year. Again, more of a 3rd liner than a top 6 guy. Stop with this nonsense. Everything you spout is so unfounded and lacks substance/facts. Pastrnak is the higher tier player whether we want to believe it or not. I can step away as a Canucks fan and realize other teams have guys that are just as good or better than our Petey. You should try doing that instead of blindly being a biased Canucks fan. Yes, you can have whatever opinion you want, just don't come at me with baseless opinions that lack actual facts or statistics. I respect those posters that throw actual facts and sources for the opinions at me. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPA Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 8 minutes ago, HKSR said: LOL! Talk about moving goal posts. Your first sentence here... GOAL POST MOVED. I literally pointed out that Pasta played a huge chunk of this season with Zacha and Vanriemsdyk and you wouldn't have it, so you go and change it to Marchand and Mcavoy? How many points has Petey got where Hughes and Miller/Boeser are in on it? And EP doesn't float between the lines on the Canucks? Last I checked, he racked up a ton of points with the Lotto Line reunited. Zacha and Vanriemsdyk are prototypical 3rd liners. Pastrnak is what carries the entire line. Zacha was a 30 to 35 point guy until he played a whole season with Pasta last year. Even this year, he's probably barely gonna crack 50 points if he even gets there. Vanriemsdyk is a 34 year old that put up 29 points in 61 games last year. Again, more of a 3rd liner than a top 6 guy. Stop with this nonsense. Everything you spout is so unfounded and lacks substance/facts. Pastrnak is the higher tier player whether we want to believe it or not. I can step away as a Canucks fan and realize other teams have guys that are just as good or better than our Petey. You should try doing that instead of blindly being a biased Canucks fan. Yes, you can have whatever opinion you want, just don't come at me with baseless opinions that lack actual facts or statistics. I respect those posters that throw actual facts and sources for the opinions at me. Last time I checked, EP had about a 1/3 of his points from the PP. Then there was the stretch when the Lotto Line was together. So most likely half his points were from the PP and Miller/Boeser. So his other 30-ish points are from his line, OT, Empty netters (goals/assist). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 2 minutes ago, BPA said: Last time I checked, EP had about a 1/3 of his points from the PP. Then there was the stretch when the Lotto Line was together. So most likely half his points were from the PP and Miller/Boeser. So his other 30-ish points are from his line, OT, Empty netters (goals/assist). Do you know if there's a website where you can actually see that info easily? Or do you need to go point by point, game by game? lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal Face Doom Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 On 2/9/2024 at 9:15 AM, HKSR said: Posted in another thread, but figured it'd be worthwhile here too... I think if we ALL (Petey included) just temper our expectations of Petey's ability, we would all be better off. IMO, I don't think Petey is that top tier of superstars in this league. He's not McDavid, or Mackinnon, or even Pastrnak or Matthews. He's a tier down from those guys. He's also not a Selke favourite, or even a candidate this year. The sooner he realizes that, the sooner we realize that, the sooner everybody will be happier with his play. The caveat though is that he shouldn't be looking to be paid for what he's not. That's where the problem lies. If Petey went into Allvin's office today and signed a $10.5M deal for 8 years, I think many of us will be off his case. This is a fair take. As much as I love Petey, who's a legitimate all star caliber player, he is a tier below the players you stated until proven otherwise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPA Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 41 minutes ago, HKSR said: Do you know if there's a website where you can actually see that info easily? Or do you need to go point by point, game by game? lol ESPN stats on EP. It shows PPG 10 and PPA 16. So that’s 26 pts from the PP. Then I just made some assumptions that EP got at least 5-10pts with the Miller/Boeser line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 minute ago, BPA said: ESPN stats on EP. It shows PPG 10 and PPA 16. So that’s 26 pts from the PP. Then I just made some assumptions that EP got at least 5-10pts with the Miller/Boeser line. Ah ok, I was curious if there was a way to actually see which players were in on his points specifically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 8 minutes ago, HKSR said: Ah ok, I was curious if there was a way to actually see which players were in on his points specifically. you can use natural stat trick. The line tool can show you with and without comp's: https://www.naturalstattrick.com/linestats.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=2&sit=5v5&score=all&rate=n&team=VAN&vteam=ALL&view=wowy&loc=B&gpfilt=none&fd=2023-10-10&td=2024-04-18&tgp=2000&strict=incl&p1=8480012&p2=8476468&p3=8478444&p4=0&p5=0 this one is for the lotto line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, HKSR said: LOL! Talk about moving goal posts. Your first sentence here... GOAL POST MOVED. I literally pointed out that Pasta played a huge chunk of this season with Zacha and Vanriemsdyk and you wouldn't have it, so you go and change it to Marchand and Mcavoy? How many points has Petey got where Hughes and Miller/Boeser are in on it? And EP doesn't float between the lines on the Canucks? Last I checked, he racked up a ton of points with the Lotto Line reunited. Zacha and Vanriemsdyk are prototypical 3rd liners. Pastrnak is what carries the entire line. Zacha was a 30 to 35 point guy until he played a whole season with Pasta last year. Even this year, he's probably barely gonna crack 50 points if he even gets there. Vanriemsdyk is a 34 year old that put up 29 points in 61 games last year. Again, more of a 3rd liner than a top 6 guy. Stop with this nonsense. Everything you spout is so unfounded and lacks substance/facts. Pastrnak is the higher tier player whether we want to believe it or not. I can step away as a Canucks fan and realize other teams have guys that are just as good or better than our Petey. You should try doing that instead of blindly being a biased Canucks fan. Yes, you can have whatever opinion you want, just don't come at me with baseless opinions that lack actual facts or statistics. I respect those posters that throw actual facts and sources for the opinions at me. Again 2/3 of pastrnak points comes from Marchand or mcavoy being in on it their top 2 players outside of pastrnak. Outside of the pp less than 25% of the points ep have on ev have boeser or miller on it. He has 28 out of his 34 ev points that doesn’t have either boeser or miller on it and 22 of the 28 without Hughes on it. By comparison miller boeser and Hughes are all in the single digits for ev points that doesn’t involve each other. Since ep doesn’t drive his line according to you I guess he’s just a passenger to studnicka kuzmenko suter mikheyev garland hoglander laffety Myers Cole zadorov soucy and those guy carried him to his ev points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 40 minutes ago, Bob Long said: you can use natural stat trick. The line tool can show you with and without comp's: https://www.naturalstattrick.com/linestats.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=2&sit=5v5&score=all&rate=n&team=VAN&vteam=ALL&view=wowy&loc=B&gpfilt=none&fd=2023-10-10&td=2024-04-18&tgp=2000&strict=incl&p1=8480012&p2=8476468&p3=8478444&p4=0&p5=0 this one is for the lotto line. Yeah I know about the line comp tool. Just not sure about points specifically without looking them up 1 at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 19 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said: Again 2/3 of pastrnak points comes from Marchand or mcavoy being in on it their top 2 players outside of pastrnak. Outside of the pp less than 25% of the points ep have on ev have boeser or miller on it. He has 28 out of his 34 ev points that doesn’t have either boeser or miller on it and 22 of the 28 without Hughes on it. By comparison miller boeser and Hughes are all in the single digits for ev points that doesn’t involve each other. Since ep doesn’t drive his line according to you I guess he’s just a passenger to studnicka kuzmenko suter mikheyev garland hoglander laffety Myers Cole zadorov soucy and those guy carried him to his ev points. Omg, you can't even compare apples to apples properly. With Pastrnak you're saying 2/3 of his points comes from Marchand OR Mcavoy in ALL situations, then with Petey you're isolating Miller/Boeser and then separately Hughes. Further to that, you're isolating to EV points only. Maybe provide an apples to apples comparison? The comparison should be: Pastrnak getting 2/3 of his points from Marchand OR Mcavoy in ALL situations vs Petey getting X number of points from Miller OR Hughes in ALL situations You're comparing: Pastrnak getting 2/3 of his points from Marchand OR Mcavoy in ALL situations vs Petey getting X number of points from Miller/Boeser at Even Strength Petey getting X number of points from Hughes at Even Strength Lemme know when you can find me stats (some actual proof would be nice too rather than pulling numbers out of the air) that show an apples to apples comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 28 minutes ago, HKSR said: Omg, you can't even compare apples to apples properly. With Pastrnak you're saying 2/3 of his points comes from Marchand OR Mcavoy in ALL situations, then with Petey you're isolating Miller/Boeser and then separately Hughes. Further to that, you're isolating to EV points only. Maybe provide an apples to apples comparison? The comparison should be: Pastrnak getting 2/3 of his points from Marchand OR Mcavoy in ALL situations vs Petey getting X number of points from Miller OR Hughes in ALL situations You're comparing: Pastrnak getting 2/3 of his points from Marchand OR Mcavoy in ALL situations vs Petey getting X number of points from Miller/Boeser at Even Strength Petey getting X number of points from Hughes at Even Strength Lemme know when you can find me stats (some actual proof would be nice too rather than pulling numbers out of the air) that show an apples to apples comparison. ok fine Pastrnak have 25 EV points that's not involving marchand or mcavoy that includes 1 penalty shot and 5 empty nets EP by comparison have 2 EN points.. so EP is still out producing pastrnak 5v5 when he's not with the top players?? if i replace mcavoy with coyle it's even lower. 66% of pastrnak point in all strength involve his teams top players 60% of EP points in all strength involve his teams top players.. so if EP is able to get 40% of his points with non top players while Pastrnak is only getting 33% not sure how you can say Pastrnak is making his line so much better even when he's not playing with his top players while EP can't drive his line even though he's out producing pastrnak without the top players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Just now, wai_lai416 said: ok fine Pastrnak have 25 EV points that's not involving marchand or mcavoy that includes 1 penalty shot and 5 empty nets EP by comparison have 2 EN points.. so EP is still out producing pastrnak 5v5 when he's not with the top players?? if i replace mcavoy with coyle it's even lower. 66% of pastrnak point in all strength involve his teams top players 60% of EP points in all strength involve his teams top players.. so if EP is able to get 40% of his points with non top players while Pastrnak is only getting 33% not sure how you can say Pastrnak is making his line so much better even when he's not playing with his top players while EP can't drive his line even though he's out producing pastrnak without the top players. Not that I don't believe you, but where are you getting this data from? Are you looking at point by point for each player or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillStrimma Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 57 minutes ago, HKSR said: Omg, you can't even compare apples to apples properly. With Pastrnak you're saying 2/3 of his points comes from Marchand OR Mcavoy in ALL situations, then with Petey you're isolating Miller/Boeser and then separately Hughes. Further to that, you're isolating to EV points only. Maybe provide an apples to apples comparison? The comparison should be: Pastrnak getting 2/3 of his points from Marchand OR Mcavoy in ALL situations vs Petey getting X number of points from Miller OR Hughes in ALL situations You're comparing: Pastrnak getting 2/3 of his points from Marchand OR Mcavoy in ALL situations vs Petey getting X number of points from Miller/Boeser at Even Strength Petey getting X number of points from Hughes at Even Strength Lemme know when you can find me stats (some actual proof would be nice too rather than pulling numbers out of the air) that show an apples to apples comparison. Please, Petey showed his first years what he can do with the leftovers like Goldobin and Loui. After that he has changed equipment, style of play and every time it’s an adjustment period. The at least two season I complained about that Miller got a lot of points Petey should have had on the PP was because Hughes Miller abd Boeser got a lot of points on the left side and Petey was put on the right side close to the blue line without order to move from Green. That was a lot of points he missed there as star like McDavid or others never would have accepted. They had demanded a trade If so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 5 minutes ago, LillStrimma said: Please, Petey showed his first years what he can do with the leftovers like Goldobin and Loui. After that he has changed equipment, style of play and every time it’s an adjustment period. The at least two season I complained about that Miller got a lot of points Petey should have had on the PP was because Hughes Miller abd Boeser got a lot of points on the left side and Petey was put on the right side close to the blue line without order to move from Green. That was a lot of points he missed there as star like McDavid or others never would have accepted. They had demanded a trade If so. He hasn't shown he can be a $11.5, let alone a $12M player. Those first years don't do it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 15 minutes ago, HKSR said: Not that I don't believe you, but where are you getting this data from? Are you looking at point by point for each player or something? yup point by point for every single game lol took a while.. and if we are looking at EV production EP leads the league in points/60 in even strength just ahead of pastrnak in hindsight the numbers are not far off of each other.. and we'll never know what EP really is capable of because we seldom see him play with the top players 5v5 maybe outside of hughes because he plays so much. Edited February 12 by wai_lai416 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 5 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said: yup point by point for every single game lol took a while.. and if we are looking at EV production EP leads the league in points/60 in even strength just ahead of pastrnak in hindsight the numbers are not far off of each other.. and we'll never know what EP really is capable of because we seldom see him play with the top players 5v5 maybe outside of hughes because he plays so much. Respect. That's a lot of work. I'm going through the exercise right now on a spreadsheet game by game as well. I'll report back what I find. Fair to say Marchand, McAvoy, and Coyle would be the top 3 for Boston? I'm using Hughes, Miller, and Boeser for Vancouver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 9 minutes ago, HKSR said: Respect. That's a lot of work. I'm going through the exercise right now on a spreadsheet game by game as well. I'll report back what I find. Fair to say Marchand, McAvoy, and Coyle would be the top 3 for Boston? I'm using Hughes, Miller, and Boeser for Vancouver. Prolly I might be +\- 2 because I’m not using spreadsheet and just looking on the phone coz I’m at work with not much to do atm. Point is you guys are way too hard on EP because he have yet to have a consistent capable wingman and defenseman to play with unlike the other top 10 scorers in the league. I don’t think there’s any argument when you look at the top 10 scorer in the league EP play the most minutes with lesser talents than anyone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 4 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said: Prolly I might be +\- 2 because I’m not using spreadsheet and just looking on the phone coz I’m at work with not much to do atm. Point is you guys are way too hard on EP because he have yet to have a consistent capable wingman and defenseman to play with unlike the other top 10 scorers in the league. I don’t think there’s any argument when you look at the top 10 scorer in the league EP play the most minutes with lesser talents than anyone else Here's Petey's table. So that means: EV: 40% of his pts come with Miller, Hughes, or Boeser. PP: 96% of his pts come with Miller, Hughes, or Boeser. Totals: 62% of his pts come with Miller, Hughes, or Boeser. Like I said, it's not that I don't believe you. I just like to see the stats to back it up. I'll work on Pasta next. This research may go a LONG ways to showing people what the situation actually looks like for Petey. If Pasta's numbers come out in favour of Petey, I'll have no issue starting a new thread with this data to support Petey. Deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPA Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 I think Canucks will also need to pay for “potential” rather than “what have you done for me lately.” I can see up to $12M for a consistent 100pt centre. Although I prefer the model of $1M per 10pts (ie. 65pt player gets between $6-7M). But that’s just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 30 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said: Prolly I might be +\- 2 because I’m not using spreadsheet and just looking on the phone coz I’m at work with not much to do atm. Point is you guys are way too hard on EP because he have yet to have a consistent capable wingman and defenseman to play with unlike the other top 10 scorers in the league. I don’t think there’s any argument when you look at the top 10 scorer in the league EP play the most minutes with lesser talents than anyone else Here's Pasta's table. So that means: EV: 39% of his pts come with Mcavoy, Marchand, or Coyle. PP: 76% of his pts come with Mcavoy, Marchand, or Coyle. Totals: 56% of his pts come with Mcavoy, Marchand, or Coyle. This is close enough that I'll post these stats in a separate thread for all to see. Petey should likely get $11.25 to $12M based on these stats. I'm not surprised, which is why I pegged Petey at $12M in my cap projections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 47 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said: Prolly I might be +\- 2 because I’m not using spreadsheet and just looking on the phone coz I’m at work with not much to do atm. Point is you guys are way too hard on EP because he have yet to have a consistent capable wingman and defenseman to play with unlike the other top 10 scorers in the league. I don’t think there’s any argument when you look at the top 10 scorer in the league EP play the most minutes with lesser talents than anyone else Here it is. I told you before, I'm not AGAINST Petey. I think he's a fabulous talent. I just like to have stats and facts to backup the prospect of signing him to a huge contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, HKSR said: He hasn't shown he can be a $11.5, let alone a $12M player. Those first years don't do it either. Petey is 6th in league scoring. Only in your mind is he not an $11.5 million player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LillStrimma Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, HKSR said: He hasn't shown he can be a $11.5, let alone a $12M player. Those first years don't do it either. And now I need to know how he’s been coached. Do you know that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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