Pettersson's worth and Kuzmenko lesson

[43isprime]

Pettersson's worth: when he's at his very peak, he may be worth 11m. The issue is, Pettersson doesn't reach that level nearly often enough or with as much consistency to be worth anywhere near 11m. A contract worth 11m or more would be a huge mistake.

 

Kuzmenko lesson: sell high on players, especially when they're riding a historically high shooting percentage. How many of you would still rather have signed him last year rather than trade him at the deadline? Imagine the assets and cap flexibility that would have bought us. Just a ridiculously poorly thought out decision by management, which we're paying for now.

 

[Strawbone]

Too early in the year to proclaim Petey isn't an $11m player, or to write off Kuzmenko. Wasn't McDavid like 43rd in league scoring a ways in to the season? Players have their ups and downs in a season.

 

Having said that, Petey has looked a bit "off" these last couple of weeks, and Kuz hasn't been producing like we'd want. Would not shock me at if we are very happy with both players once the season is done.

[Steamer4GM]

For this, you made your way here and created an account?

 

How much of a rough patch will it take you to jump ship on Quinn too?

[Jess]

Pettersson's peak is well north of $12M, probably pushing close to $13M IMO. In his peak, we're literally talking about a top 5 Selke player who can get 120+ points. That's Ted Lindsay/Hart trophy material.

 

Whether or not he's consistent enough to merit that high level of pay is another debate though.

[PeteyBOI]

40 minutes ago, Strawbone said:

Too early in the year to proclaim Petey isn't an $11m player, or to write off Kuzmenko. Wasn't McDavid like 43rd in league scoring a ways in to the season? Players have their ups and downs in a season.

 

Having said that, Petey has looked a bit "off" these last couple of weeks, and Kuz hasn't been producing like we'd want. Would not shock me at if we are very happy with both players once the season is done.

I think the opposite is more fair... Its too ealry to be calling him a 11M dollar player.. he does get the weaker matchups and the majority of the offensive faceoffs

[EdgarM]

34 minutes ago, Dankmemes187 said:

I think the opposite is more fair... Its too ealry to be calling him a 11M dollar player.. he does get the weaker matchups and the majority of the offensive faceoffs

I thought once he was able to take faceoffs on a regular basis he was our #1 Center, but seeing his play so far, he is still under Miller and still needs work to get to that level. Miller and Hughes are our best players and they don't make anywhere near 11 million. 

We don't need to make a mistake like we almost did with Horvat.

[-Buzzsaw-]

1 hour ago, 43isprime said:

Pettersson's worth: when he's at his very peak, he may be worth 11m. The issue is, Pettersson doesn't reach that level nearly often enough or with as much consistency to be worth anywhere near 11m. A contract worth 11m or more would be a huge mistake.

 

Kuzmenko lesson: sell high on players, especially when they're riding a historically high shooting percentage. How many of you would still rather have signed him last year rather than trade him at the deadline? Imagine the assets and cap flexibility that would have bought us. Just a ridiculously poorly thought out decision by management, which we're paying for now.

 

Another band wagon jumper... likely two years ago you were saying Pettersson should be traded.... then probably you jumped on the bandwagon in 2022/2023 for his 100 point season... now you are jumping off again since he has tailed off for a few games and no longer leads the league.

 

And Kuz is having some D coverage problems... but he will be back... and the team needs him.  He has huge offensive chemistry with Pettersson and the reason Pettersson is temporarily not putting up the points is probably because Kuz is not on his line.

 

The number of knee jerk responses on the forums never ceases to amaze me.

[43isprime]

1 hour ago, Steamer4GM said:

For this, you made your way here and created an account?

 

How much of a rough patch will it take you to jump ship on Quinn too?

Yes - I feel that strongly about this.

 

I was never on the Kuzmenko ship. He's not nearly fast enough nor defensively responsible enough to be worth 5m.

 

As for Pettersson, I'm not off the Pettersson ship. I just don't see the evidence for him being worth the 11+ that many seem to believe he's worth. It's not just his recent play that's prompted this. His career has been characterized by great stretches followed by much too quiet stretches, averaging out to about 1 ppg. That's not the profile of an 11+ player.

 

Hughes has been great - I've been a huge supporter from the very start. Its clear he's well worth his contract, and no rough patch would change my assessment.

 

[-Buzzsaw-]

Pettersson and Kuzmenko were the key to winning this game.

 

'Nuff said.

[43isprime]

19 hours ago, -Buzzsaw- said:

Pettersson and Kuzmenko were the key to winning this game.

 

'Nuff said.

 

So Game 23 of the regular season in which we got outplayed for two periods by a sub-500 team is "nuff' for you to conclude that Pettersson is worth 11+ and Kuzmenko is "back"? Sounds like the definition of a knee jerk response.

 

How exactly did Kuzmenko key the victory? He was invisible the entire game except for when Gibson tried to punch him. That was not a good game for him.

 

Not sure Pettersson played that great either apart from the one goal. He did contribute well on the PK, but I thought Miller and Hughes both had significantly better games.

 

 

[43isprime]

On 11/29/2023 at 11:06 AM, Strawbone said:

Too early in the year to proclaim Petey isn't an $11m player, or to write off Kuzmenko. Wasn't McDavid like 43rd in league scoring a ways in to the season? Players have their ups and downs in a season.

 

Having said that, Petey has looked a bit "off" these last couple of weeks, and Kuz hasn't been producing like we'd want. Would not shock me at if we are very happy with both players once the season is done.

 

I'm not basing it just on this season - this poor 3-4 week stretch is characteristic of something we've seen repeat over the balance of his career. 

 

People seem to fixate on stretches where he is lights out (and he is absolutely great in these stretches), and write off poor stretches as minor slumps. But his poor stretches are too frequent and too prolonged to be ignored in his valuation.

 

It all averages to him so far being about a ppg player over his career, and I don't believe that's worth 11+, especially when there are players like Jack Hughes making 8m.

[sxqhfeh]

12m?I don't see it happening the way he is playing

[sxqhfeh]

It's about time Petey took some criticism for having only 4 even strength points in his last 10 games and being -8 in that span. He had a good first 10 games but the season in 82 games long, This reminds me of his Calder season, Pettey was good for maybe 30 games and he limped his way through the final 52 games. This season, Petey had 10 good games before the wheels fell off, Canuck fans have always loved their bottom 6 sweathogs who can't carry their weight on the scoresheet and never thought their core was so weak, then they wonder why they still suck after 50 years,... It's a joke, stop overestimating Petey's worth. loading a huge contract with a false God never wins anything

[EdgarM]

I wouldn't even mind if he didn't play a full game but came up in key situations which tied or won a game. He can go a long time and be almost invisible. I don't want to put all of my eggs in a basket where we are not sure what we are getting when the going gets tough. 

I would much rather be one goal post a way from winning the Stanley Cup in game 7 with a bunch heart and soul players then getting shut out with no real threat to win the game at all with superstars. 

[Strawbone]

1 hour ago, 43isprime said:

 

I'm not basing it just on this season - this poor 3-4 week stretch is characteristic of something we've seen repeat over the balance of his career. 

 

People seem to fixate on stretches where he is lights out (and he is absolutely great in these stretches), and write off poor stretches as minor slumps. But his poor stretches are too frequent and too prolonged to be ignored in his valuation.

 

It all averages to him so far being about a ppg player over his career, and I don't believe that's worth 11+, especially when there are players like Jack Hughes making 8m.

Fair enough, if he’s an 80-90 point player after this entire season and isn’t driving play consistently, then I agree. I’m hoping his quiet stretches get shorter as he gains experience and confidence. We’ll just have to see how the year plays out. 

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, 43isprime said:

 

I'm not basing it just on this season - this poor 3-4 week stretch is characteristic of something we've seen repeat over the balance of his career. 

 

People seem to fixate on stretches where he is lights out (and he is absolutely great in these stretches), and write off poor stretches as minor slumps. But his poor stretches are too frequent and too prolonged to be ignored in his valuation.

 

It all averages to him so far being about a ppg player over his career, and I don't believe that's worth 11+, especially when there are players like Jack Hughes making 8m.

Can't do that (Jack Hughes).   That's an RFA deal.   I do agree about his pay though, it needs to be realistic.   But he's going to get paid, only one RFA year left.   Think of Tavares.   If EP went to market, he's getting paid like he did, and well he actually put his time in (five year deal) to earn the big pay day too, where EP not as much...EPs now basically a first overall pick.  

Edited November 30, 2023 by IBatch

[wai_lai416]

On 11/28/2023 at 5:26 PM, EdgarM said:

I thought once he was able to take faceoffs on a regular basis he was our #1 Center, but seeing his play so far, he is still under Miller and still needs work to get to that level. Miller and Hughes are our best players and they don't make anywhere near 11 million. 

We don't need to make a mistake like we almost did with Horvat.

lol ep have done more with inferior player than miller ever have. Put miller in eps position I guarantee you he’s no where near his production right now. Easy to produce when you are playing with 2 ppg+ defenceman 90% of your shift? Miller have been very good this season.. but again that’s a by product of the quality of players you are playing with. If millers been playing without Hughes and hronek majority of the season 5v5 he will easily be sub ppg player. Some will say the defence pairing shouldn’t affect the forwards? Well there’s reason why Hughes and hronek are both over a ppg.. and there’s reason why the others have 10 or less points.. because of eps natural talent.. this team have never given him a legitimate top line player to play with the last 3-4 season. Kuzmenko?? He’s a decent top 6.. but a legitimate top line forward?  Mikheyev was a 3rd liner before coming to Vancouver.. and then you have the laffety hoglander podkolzin aman motte and a whole list of others over the years and on defence he have spent the most time with the likes of Myers soucy Cole OEL bear etc 5v5. Ep plays with the least amount of proven talent on the ice the last 4 seasons and played with the most 3rd/4th line caliber wingers in the league the last 4 seasons at 5v5.. kuzmenko is prolly the highest talent player ep have played with 5v5 in the last 4 years and ppl here are already trashing him and ready to dump him

[Bob Long]

Kuzy cost no assets to obtain. He can be elite around the net. Every team wanted him. He's on a short contract. I don't see the problem.

 

A fair deal for Petey is prob something like 11 mil for 3 years or 12.5 x 8.

[Jester13]

I also don't think Petey is worth what some think he is. Yes, he's amazing when he's "on", but he's shown inconsistency throughout his career, and it's all mental inconsistency to go with injuries. Just because the cap is going up 4mill doesn't mean he deserves to get it all. Whars 12% of 4mill? Any player who thinks they deserve most of the cap increase for themselves is not a team you build around. I hope Petey ends up signing for something reasonable, for our sake but also for his. $10.5m is a fair price.

[boziffous]

50 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

 If millers been playing without Hughes and hronek majority of the season 5v5 he will easily be sub ppg player.

 

In 23 games Miller has 17 pts combined just on the PP and SH alone. You don't think Miller could manage just 6 points at even strength in 23 games without Hughes and Hronek?

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol ep have done more with inferior player than miller ever have. Put miller in eps position I guarantee you he’s no where near his production right now. Easy to produce when you are playing with 2 ppg+ defenceman 90% of your shift? Miller have been very good this season.. but again that’s a by product of the quality of players you are playing with. If millers been playing without Hughes and hronek majority of the season 5v5 he will easily be sub ppg player. Some will say the defence pairing shouldn’t affect the forwards? Well there’s reason why Hughes and hronek are both over a ppg.. and there’s reason why the others have 10 or less points.. because of eps natural talent.. this team have never given him a legitimate top line player to play with the last 3-4 season. Kuzmenko?? He’s a decent top 6.. but a legitimate top line forward?  Mikheyev was a 3rd liner before coming to Vancouver.. and then you have the laffety hoglander podkolzin aman motte and a whole list of others over the years and on defence he have spent the most time with the likes of Myers soucy Cole OEL bear etc 5v5. Ep plays with the least amount of proven talent on the ice the last 4 seasons and played with the most 3rd/4th line caliber wingers in the league the last 4 seasons at 5v5.. kuzmenko is prolly the highest talent player ep have played with 5v5 in the last 4 years and ppl here are already trashing him and ready to dump him

lol.  So Brock who most wanted off the team the past two seasons, and Pearson are his regular linemates.   JT Miller actually has had more variation than EP has, aside from Brock who was played with EP on his own often enough as well, during the Green era anyways.   The Lotto line sucked so freaking bad, Green let it go.  

 

  And EP was actually truly bad often Greens final season.   Miller put the team on his back, and almost got us to the playoffs his 99 point season. 

 

EP is a gamebreaker, with more potential and talent than Miller, that's undeniable.   But if you had to pick one player, since he's arrived, who has done the most for this team, it's also JT Miller.   Not QHs, not Demko and not EP, the past 4.25 seasons.    EPs season last year ... well the team was terrible.    Also it's now 3 coaches, that have played Miller as the first line, at times with EP of course.   Folks back then said that EP was driving the lotto line.   That proved to be completely false during the Bruce bump.   I'd for sure say that EP had the best season of any forwards since Miller arrived last year, but it wasn't miles ahead of Millers 99 point season either.

 

Go look at his 99 point year and see whom Miller played with.   Virtually all the top 9 at the time.   As for right now, sure would be interesting, to see how JT would do with Kuzmenko and Mikheyev, instead of PDG and Brock for the most part, with a sprinkling of Beau etc.    Obviously EPs a massive talent.   What bugs me is that JT Miller is 100% committed to this team, and winning a cup with this team, left money on the table, just keeps doing it, yet the fanbase seems to have this silly idea that somehow he owes us his dog or something.   First it was Horvat and trade rumours galore.    Now that EPs struggling, somehow it's his linemates holding him down. 

 

Millers line is the one Tochett uses against the best in the world, not EPs.   It was his line that faced McDavid/Draisatl, and Mckinnon/Rantenens etc.   Check out our home record!    And well wasn't Brock supposed to be all washed up?  I'm sure Miller would do just fine with Kuzmenko instead of Beau or PDG.    Pearson also looked better with Miller.

 

EPs looking for a massive payday, that could mean he's getting 50-60% more than Miller is.   He's absolutely not that much better.  Miller is like Messier, and EP is like ... Kurri but plays the middle.   He's not Gretzky.   And shouldn't command elite money, unless he's like Crosby and can play with actual plugs (PDG) and make them better.    Mikheyev is a very good player, so is Kuzmenko.   It's not like he's Ryan Kesler, and getting spare parts. 

 

Let's hope Kuzmenko responds to Tochetts scratching.    Think he will be fine.    EP and Kuzmenko have chemistry, they just need to get it back on track.   Sure they will.    

Edited November 30, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, Strawbone said:

Fair enough, if he’s an 80-90 point player after this entire season and isn’t driving play consistently, then I agree. I’m hoping his quiet stretches get shorter as he gains experience and confidence. We’ll just have to see how the year plays out. 

 

 

Oh no!  All we have is one Sedin.   They only played half their careers at around a PPG or better.   Enough to end up in the HHOF.    Millers already half way there too.     Well actually this year, he'd be 5/8 there.  EP has almost done this from the start.   Allvin and him, just need to make a reasonable contract.    The Sedins were reasonable contracts.   Think Barkov's deal, not MckInnon's. 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by IBatch

[kilgore]

Petey will get whatever he wants. 

if not here then elsewhere. So we will pay him. Even if its 13.  I think letting Petey walk would not only gut our team down the middle but also gut the chemistry and optimism in the dressing room. And management knows it.

 

The onus is on Petey. If he truly wants to play for a winning team, then he has to be less greedy. 11 million would actually still be in the bargain range. The high bargain range.  But I'd love to see him take 10 mill x 8 for the sake of having a few dollars to pay other players.  Actually I'm uneasy about 8+ year contracts in general. In a more level headed world, an 8 year deal should even out the pay as the player is getting that security. So I'd really like it to be something like 8x8.    But that's not going to happen.

 

I also think salary is also a reflection of stature and respect in the league. Not to mention pleasing the PA. At some point the amount is moot (as far as survival on the planet) and its more about your position in relation to the highest paid players. I'm just hoping that doesn't affect Petey so much.

[OldFaithfulcap]

 

More than a beej and a half eaten watermelon i'd guess

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wai_lai416]

51 minutes ago, IBatch said:

lol.  So Brock who most wanted off the team the past two seasons, and Pearson are his regular linemates.   JT Miller actually has had more variation than EP has, aside from Brock who was played with EP on his own often enough as well, during the Green era anyways.   The Lotto line sucked so freaking bad, Green let it go.  

 

  And EP was actually truly bad often Greens final season.   Miller put the team on his back, and almost got us to the playoffs his 99 point season. 

 

EP is a gamebreaker, with more potential and talent than Miller, that's undeniable.   But if you had to pick one player, since he's arrived, who has done the most for this team, it's also JT Miller.   Not QHs, not Demko and not EP, the past 4.25 seasons.    EPs season last year ... well the team was terrible.    Also it's now 3 coaches, that have played Miller as the first line, at times with EP of course.   Folks back then said that EP was driving the lotto line.   That proved to be completely false during the Bruce bump.   I'd for sure say that EP had the best season of any forwards since Miller arrived last year, but it wasn't miles ahead of Millers 99 point season either.

 

Go look at his 99 point year and see whom Miller played with.   Virtually all the top 9 at the time.   As for right now, sure would be interesting, to see how JT would do with Kuzmenko and Mikheyev, instead of PDG and Brock for the most part, with a sprinkling of Beau etc.    Obviously EPs a massive talent.   What bugs me is that JT Miller is 100% committed to this team, and winning a cup with this team, left money on the table, just keeps doing it, yet the fanbase seems to have this silly idea that somehow he owes us his dog or something.   First it was Horvat and trade rumours galore.    Now that EPs struggling, somehow it's his linemates holding him down. 

 

Millers line is the one Tochett uses against the best in the world, not EPs.   It was his line that faced McDavid/Draisatl, and Mckinnon/Rantenens etc.   Check out our home record!    And well wasn't Brock supposed to be all washed up?  I'm sure Miller would do just fine with Kuzmenko instead of Beau or PDG.    Pearson also looked better with Miller.

 

EPs looking for a massive payday, that could mean he's getting 50-60% more than Miller is.   He's absolutely not that much better.  Miller is like Messier, and EP is like ... Kurri but plays the middle.   He's not Gretzky.   And shouldn't command elite money, unless he's like Crosby and can play with actual plugs (PDG) and make them better.    Mikheyev is a very good player, so is Kuzmenko.   It's not like he's Ryan Kesler, and getting spare parts. 

 

Let's hope Kuzmenko responds to Tochetts scratching.    Think he will be fine.    EP and Kuzmenko have chemistry, they just need to get it back on track.   Sure they will.    

being wanted off by our bandwagon fans doesn't mean he haven't been producing at a steady rate over his career.. JT have more variation? such as? boeser have been his linemates 95% of the time.. the only time he had a different linemate was last year when he was paired with Horvat. boeser you can hate him all u want.. he still a very steady 70 point pace every year. 

 

as for miller and his 99 point season? compare him and EP linemates and tell me who have more consistent linemates? let's look back for the past 2 years? ep doesn't even have a single linemates he played with for over 800 mins at even strength. Miller have 2 boeser at over 1000+ mins and garland at 800+. 

 

besides this have nothing to do with miller bashing as all i'm saying is Miller have far superior quality of teammates to play with than EP.. QH and Hronek alone is far superior than anyone else on the team. until they balance the defence, EP likely will continue to struggle against stronger opponents because he's usually against other teams top shutdown line/pairs and he has 0 help from the back. put EP with just QH and Hronek regardless of his linemates? you'll probably see night and day.. just like putting Miller with the likes of myers and cole? he probably struggles himself coz those 2 simple creates 0 space