Pettersson's worth and Kuzmenko lesson

[Petey the Puck Whisperer]

We're not paying too much for kuz but yes I definitely would have traded him and bauvillier last season.     

[43isprime]

On 11/29/2023 at 4:35 PM, -Buzzsaw- said:

Pettersson and Kuzmenko were the key to winning this game.

 

'Nuff said.

 

Since we're going on a game-by-game basis, what's Pettersson's worth after this game? Didn't even have a shot goal. At least Kuzmenko scored (albeit a meaningless goal) and had three shots.

 

[43isprime]

Can anyone remember the last time Pettersson had an impactful 5 on 5 game where he consistently drove play? And how often does this happen?

[iinatcc]

On 11/29/2023 at 12:56 AM, 43isprime said:

 

Kuzmenko lesson: sell high on players, especially when they're riding a historically high shooting percentage. How many of you would still rather have signed him last year rather than trade him at the deadline? Imagine the assets and cap flexibility that would have bought us. Just a ridiculously poorly thought out decision by management, which we're paying for now.

 

 

I don't want to gloat but I remember saying, before the season started, that Kuzmenko has a good probability of regressing as far as goal totals go. There were people here telling me that he's not going to regress and what he is doing is sustainable. 

 

Ironically this was during a discussion that involved people here thinking the LA Kings were going to regress but, at the same time, predicted our guys would carry over (and even improve) on their performance including Kuzmenko. 

 

Bigger lesson here is never assume everything will go completley wrong for other teams but assume the inverse with ours. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by iinatcc

[43isprime]

10 hours ago, iinatcc said:

 

I don't want to gloat but I remember saying, before the season started, that Kuzmenko has a good probability of regressing as far as goal totals go. There were people here telling me that he's not going to regress and what he is doing is sustainable. 

 

Ironically this was during a discussion that involved people here thinking the LA Kings were going to regress but, at the same time, predicted our guys would carry over (and even improve) on their performance including Kuzmenko. 

 

Bigger lesson here is never assume everything will go completley wrong for other teams but assume the inverse with ours. 

 

Probably the same people who thought we'd sustain a 109 PDO

[43isprime]

On 11/29/2023 at 11:19 AM, -AJ- said:

Pettersson's peak is well north of $12M, probably pushing close to $13M IMO. In his peak, we're literally talking about a top 5 Selke player who can get 120+ points. That's Ted Lindsay/Hart trophy material.

 

Whether or not he's consistent enough to merit that high level of pay is another debate though.

 

A player worth well north of 12m needs to sustain an absolutely elite level over multiple seasons. We're talking among the 3-5 most valuable players in the entire league. Whether he has reached (or would be able to reach) that level for any period at all is questionable, but there is for sure zero evidence that he is able to sustain that level over multiple seasons.

 

Don't get me wrong - I wish he was worth well north of 12m, but the evidence just doesn't bear that out.

[Jess]

7 hours ago, 43isprime said:

 

A player worth well north of 12m needs to sustain an absolutely elite level over multiple seasons. We're talking among the 3-5 most valuable players in the entire league. Whether he has reached (or would be able to reach) that level for any period at all is questionable, but there is for sure zero evidence that he is able to sustain that level over multiple seasons.

 

Don't get me wrong - I wish he was worth well north of 12m, but the evidence just doesn't bear that out.

 

We'll see. He's not there yet, but if he does produce 120+ points and is a Selke finalist this year. There's a strong argument that he is a top 5 player in the entire league.

[43isprime]

14 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

 

We'll see. He's not there yet, but if he does produce 120+ points and is a Selke finalist this year. There's a strong argument that he is a top 5 player in the entire league.

 

Haha yes - that goes without saying, for literally any forward in the NHL. The question is whether he can actually hit that level, and then sustain it. There has so far not been much evidence to the positive.

[Jess]

38 minutes ago, 43isprime said:

 

Haha yes - that goes without saying, for literally any forward in the NHL. The question is whether he can actually hit that level, and then sustain it. There has so far not been much evidence to the positive.

 

As for the Selke, he finished 7th last year and has a decent chance to finish top 5 this year. 120 points? Looking less likely now, but I still think 100+ is very plausible, so he's likely not at that level, but also not that far away from it.

[IBatch]

On 11/30/2023 at 1:54 PM, wai_lai416 said:

being wanted off by our bandwagon fans doesn't mean he haven't been producing at a steady rate over his career.. JT have more variation? such as? boeser have been his linemates 95% of the time.. the only time he had a different linemate was last year when he was paired with Horvat. boeser you can hate him all u want.. he still a very steady 70 point pace every year. 

 

as for miller and his 99 point season? compare him and EP linemates and tell me who have more consistent linemates? let's look back for the past 2 years? ep doesn't even have a single linemates he played with for over 800 mins at even strength. Miller have 2 boeser at over 1000+ mins and garland at 800+. 

 

besides this have nothing to do with miller bashing as all i'm saying is Miller have far superior quality of teammates to play with than EP.. QH and Hronek alone is far superior than anyone else on the team. until they balance the defence, EP likely will continue to struggle against stronger opponents because he's usually against other teams top shutdown line/pairs and he has 0 help from the back. put EP with just QH and Hronek regardless of his linemates? you'll probably see night and day.. just like putting Miller with the likes of myers and cole? he probably struggles himself coz those 2 simple creates 0 space

 

This is Greens last season and Bruce's bump.   Which is what i was referring too.   Look at the blender!   Prior to that, The Lotto Line was Greens go to.    So Miller and EP played with Brock.   The article this came from, also reflected how the best and most effective lines in the league, guys play 400 plus minutes together.   Benn Seguin for half a decade, or well Sedins and Burrows.  Or Alfie Spezza Heatley, or the WCE.   Or Ovi with Backstrom for the better part of a decade.   The most any line played was 258 minutes.   Miller's most regular linemate, was Brock for sure, but still a blender.

 

  And definitely not 95% of the time.   Last year too.   There was awhile Brock with stuck with Dries and somehow supposed to score some goals lol.    Miller's 99 point year, like I said, he played with 5 different line combos.   For 1/4 of the season, the lotto line which was a total mess.   Green gave up on it, and we all know he was a bit rigid and stubborn about things at times.   Boeser played on 7 line combos, and 3 were with Miller.   

So exactly like I said, it doesn't or didn't matter whom Miller played with, from the top 9, he's still done it.   And no year moreso then the Bruce bump.   And like I said Pearson and Brock were his most regular linemates, and look at which lines worked the best.   The most effective line, was when EP was demoted to the third line, playing against the weakest competition to jolt him out of his funk. 

 

Don't know why some folks can't let the Miller stuff go.   And why he was even targeted by this fanbase in the first place.   Get the trade stuff because we didn't know if he'd re-sign.    He did.    That's great.   We can't win with EP on his own that's for sure.     EP has had longer stretches of poor play and this year was probably the worst one for him that way.    Same with Horvat.    Of course Brock.   He's seen his fair share of the doghouse for it too.   

 

Three different coaches were right though too.   Brock plays better with Miller, then EP and Horvat aside from his rookie season.    Now Miller gets Kuzmenko, and EP Lafferty lol.    Yikes.  But let's be real,  Tochett is insulating EPs line as well, at home it's Millers line that is given the challenge of going head to head with the best players in the world.    What does that make Miller then?    Not sure why it's so hard to acknowledge him as a great hockey player too (not saying you specifically). 

 

Edit: This year, Millers best so far (although TBD ... this could be better yet still),  our best 3 line combo's all had him.   Pearson,  Brock and Garland.   Then EP.   The fifth best line combo as well.  The only crappy combo was with EP and Brock go figure lol. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by IBatch

[Malibu]

I doubt any team would sign Petey for 11 millon, but if they did I would gladly take the 4 first round picks we would garner, and use the 11 million to sign a robust free agent or two.  I like Elias, his effort level is comparable or better than most, but his physical limitations are noticeable. If another team wants to sign him for over 8 million, I would still prefer the two first round picks and a second and a third. If he wants to sign with us for  8 million or less, I would be fine with keeping him.

 

This will be a big test for our new management afaic. Are they going to be Swedecentric and overpay, or are they going to try and build a champion and let him go? Just win baby.

[Alflives]

10 minutes ago, Malibu said:

I doubt any team would sign Petey for 11 millon, but if they did I would gladly take the 4 first round picks we would garner, and use the 11 million to sign a robust free agent or two.  I like Elias, his effort level is comparable or better than most, but his physical limitations are noticeable. If another team wants to sign him for over 8 million, I would still prefer the two first round picks and a second and a third. If he wants to sign with us for  8 million or less, I would be fine with keeping him.

 

This will be a big test for our new management afaic. Are they going to be Swedecentric and overpay, or are they going to try and build a champion and let him go? Just win baby.

[canuck73]

Not every player produces every game... Some days it's a 5 point night, some nights nada... not every "human being" brings their A game in life every single day.

 

And ignoring the efforts of other teams attempting to stop our top players and placing the blame solely on our players is a disservice to the opposition.

 

And Pettersson's sitting 4th in league scoring for centers ahead of players like Mathews, Eichel etc guys who make 10+ million.

 

Add in Pettersson's 200ft game... he is going to get paid... and that doesn't account for the possibility of any hardware we get awarded this year.

[LillStrimma]

1 hour ago, canuck73 said:

Not every player produces every game... Some days it's a 5 point night, some nights nada... not every "human being" brings their A game in life every single day.

 

And ignoring the efforts of other teams attempting to stop our top players and placing the blame solely on our players is a disservice to the opposition.

 

And Pettersson's sitting 4th in league scoring for centers ahead of players like Mathews, Eichel etc guys who make 10+ million.

 

Add in Pettersson's 200ft game... he is going to get paid... and that doesn't account for the possibility of any hardware we get awarded this year.

I’m glad we’re on the same page nowadays when we don’t have Benning as a distastraction

[McIlhargey the Lesser]

When Petey’s on his game he’s dominating so much that he can easily have a three point night on seemingly an off night.

i think he’s nursing something lingering.

I hope this next week and a half gives him some reprieve to mend.

He’s a superstar who just has had some bad injury luck throughout his career.

That being said, one needs to stay healthy to prove their worth.

[Tusk]

I really, really hope the players read these things. I am sure the agents do, in fact I am sure the agents are the ones doing most of the hype on players.

We really dont need Petey.

We love him, he is awesome. He wants to be a Canuck.

 

I think Petey's "injury" is likely just thoughts about the next contract. What, am I not worth 1 billion dollars? vs Jeez if i didnt have JT, brock, demmers, Kuz, Hugzy i mean what can I do?

 

Petey needs to grab a deal or go for broke.... I mean win a Cup by working his ass off instead of falling and looking at the refs. If he just does a deal like a JT deal he can relax and just play hockey again. Or he needs to do the crazy shit we know he can do! Yeah man, we win the cup we will pay a bizzilllion dollars to your bitcooiln acount man.

[Tusk]

On 12/3/2023 at 5:52 AM, -AJ- said:

 

We'll see. He's not there yet, but if he does produce 120+ points and is a Selke finalist this year. There's a strong argument that he is a top 5 player in the entire league.

you talking about Kuzy?

[Jess]

2 hours ago, Tusk said:

you talking about Kuzy?

 

Was talking about Pettersson. These days, 120 points seems very unrealistic, though perhaps Selke consideration is still on the table.

[Malibu]

On 12/25/2023 at 12:55 AM, Alflives said:

When an esteemed poster such as yourself replies with such poignancy, it forces one to reconsider.

 

Ok, I reconsidered. I still want the 4 first rounders from the dopes who pay him 11 million a year for 8 years.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Malibu

[Alflives]

12 minutes ago, Malibu said:

When an esteemed poster such as yourself replies with such poignancy, it forces one to reconsider.

 

Ok, I reconsidered. I still want the 4 first rounders from the dopes who pay him 11 million a year for 8 years.

Let Petey go? 

[IBatch]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:44 AM, McIlhargey the Lesser said:

When Petey’s on his game he’s dominating so much that he can easily have a three point night on seemingly an off night.

i think he’s nursing something lingering.

I hope this next week and a half gives him some reprieve to mend.

He’s a superstar who just has had some bad injury luck throughout his career.

That being said, one needs to stay healthy to prove their worth.

So ... he's this generations Kovalev minus the injuries, or with them?  And it's not like he's been out that much aside from the first year.    Brocks had way worse luck on that front.  At some point (say year five or six), you've got to just say "what you get is what you're getting".     EP and Kovalev were/are similar in the idea there is more to give, a lot more. 

 

Edit: For those who weren't around then, several coaches and teams and big heads, felt Kovalev would win a Hart or and or a Hart and Art Ross but never did. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by IBatch

[Westcoasting]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

So ... he's this generations Kovalev minus the injuries, or with them?  And it's not like he's been out that much aside from the first year.    Brocks had way worse luck on that front.  At some point (say year five or six), you've got to just say "what you get is what you're getting".     EP and Kovalev were/are similar in the idea there is more to give, a lot more. 

 

Edit: For those who weren't around then, several coaches and teams and big heads, felt Kovalev would win a Hart or and or a Hart and Art Ross but never did. 

Much like Mogilny… Linden and Kirk McLean said he was the most gifted player ever… but of course he only showed that in glimpses!

[Rekker]

4 hours ago, Malibu said:

When an esteemed poster such as yourself replies with such poignancy, it forces one to reconsider.

 

Ok, I reconsidered. I still want the 4 first rounders from the dopes who pay him 11 million a year for 8 years.

Four magic beans for EP? Lol. That could be Jake, Juolevi, Gaunce and Shinkaruk. Canucks have been drafting for over 50 years and how many EP's have they drafted? And you want to let him go for picks because you think 11 per may be a touch much?!

[McIlhargey the Lesser]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

So ... he's this generations Kovalev minus the injuries, or with them?  And it's not like he's been out that much aside from the first year.    Brocks had way worse luck on that front.  At some point (say year five or six), you've got to just say "what you get is what you're getting".     EP and Kovalev were/are similar in the idea there is more to give, a lot more. 

 

Edit: For those who weren't around then, several coaches and teams and big heads, felt Kovalev would win a Hart or and or a Hart and Art Ross but never did. 

I totally disagree about the Kovalev comparison. Kovalev was just disinterested at times and turned it on at others. And when he turned it on he was insanely good. I think that Petersson’s problem is a matter of durability.

 

So while I disagree with you in terms of the type of player he is (about which you elaborate in the last game day thread - I think he has near superstar ability), one of the things that are considered for contracts is consistency. I agree with your bottom line in terms of his worth but as a matter of consistency vis-a-vis his durability, not his pure ability.

[iceman1964]

On 12/3/2023 at 3:45 AM, IBatch said:

 

This is Greens last season and Bruce's bump.   Which is what i was referring too.   Look at the blender!   Prior to that, The Lotto Line was Greens go to.    So Miller and EP played with Brock.   The article this came from, also reflected how the best and most effective lines in the league, guys play 400 plus minutes together.   Benn Seguin for half a decade, or well Sedins and Burrows.  Or Alfie Spezza Heatley, or the WCE.   Or Ovi with Backstrom for the better part of a decade.   The most any line played was 258 minutes.   Miller's most regular linemate, was Brock for sure, but still a blender.

 

  And definitely not 95% of the time.   Last year too.   There was awhile Brock with stuck with Dries and somehow supposed to score some goals lol.    Miller's 99 point year, like I said, he played with 5 different line combos.   For 1/4 of the season, the lotto line which was a total mess.   Green gave up on it, and we all know he was a bit rigid and stubborn about things at times.   Boeser played on 7 line combos, and 3 were with Miller.   

So exactly like I said, it doesn't or didn't matter whom Miller played with, from the top 9, he's still done it.   And no year moreso then the Bruce bump.   And like I said Pearson and Brock were his most regular linemates, and look at which lines worked the best.   The most effective line, was when EP was demoted to the third line, playing against the weakest competition to jolt him out of his funk. 

 

Don't know why some folks can't let the Miller stuff go.   And why he was even targeted by this fanbase in the first place.   Get the trade stuff because we didn't know if he'd re-sign.    He did.    That's great.   We can't win with EP on his own that's for sure.     EP has had longer stretches of poor play and this year was probably the worst one for him that way.    Same with Horvat.    Of course Brock.   He's seen his fair share of the doghouse for it too.   

 

Three different coaches were right though too.   Brock plays better with Miller, then EP and Horvat aside from his rookie season.    Now Miller gets Kuzmenko, and EP Lafferty lol.    Yikes.  But let's be real,  Tochett is insulating EPs line as well, at home it's Millers line that is given the challenge of going head to head with the best players in the world.    What does that make Miller then?    Not sure why it's so hard to acknowledge him as a great hockey player too (not saying you specifically). 

 

Edit: This year, Millers best so far (although TBD ... this could be better yet still),  our best 3 line combo's all had him.   Pearson,  Brock and Garland.   Then EP.   The fifth best line combo as well.  The only crappy combo was with EP and Brock go figure lol. 

The reason why the fan base wanted JTM gone is because the media did and most of the fan base will believe the media without question, but it's not a new thing.