[Rumour] Oil exploring a Broberg trade

[Rekker]

Another example of putting too much value on a first round pick. Hronek looks pretty good, same with JT. OJ and Jake, Broberg, not so much. A first rounder is far, far from automatic. 

[Bob Long]

29 minutes ago, Rekker said:

Another example of putting too much value on a first round pick. Hronek looks pretty good, same with JT. OJ and Jake, Broberg, not so much. A first rounder is far, far from automatic. 

 

Yep. People really freak out when a 1st is moved. 

 

But, I would be a bit surprised if we did move ours this year. Maybe just before the draft in a non-rental deal.

[HKSR]

7 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Yep. People really freak out when a 1st is moved. 

 

But, I would be a bit surprised if we did move ours this year. Maybe just before the draft in a non-rental deal.

A 1st should only be moved for non-rentals IMO.  Rarely does a rental put a team over the top.  It takes time for players to build chemistry and trust with one another.  The TDL is too late in the season for that to happen.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, HKSR said:

A 1st should only be moved for non-rentals IMO.  Rarely does a rental put a team over the top.  It takes time for players to build chemistry and trust with one another.  The TDL is too late in the season for that to happen.

Unless the first is collected by dumping a guy like Horfat Wallet. So not the club’s first. Then it’s smart management. 

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, HKSR said:

A 1st should only be moved for non-rentals IMO.  Rarely does a rental put a team over the top.  It takes time for players to build chemistry and trust with one another.  The TDL is too late in the season for that to happen.

 

Agreed, unless you somehow land an rfa at the TDL. Before the draft makes the most sense to me as teams will be looking to make significant roster moves and if we still have our 1st it gives us a leg up.

[BornMello]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

We sure dodged a bullet the. Zegras is a selfish player who is toxic to a room. Can’t win guys like that. 

I disagree. Zegras isn’t my favourite player but he still has a lot more value than Podz does at this point. We could trade him now to address some weaker areas on our team. 

[JeremyCuddles]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

Yep. People really freak out when a 1st is moved. 

 

But, I would be a bit surprised if we did move ours this year. Maybe just before the draft in a non-rental deal.

I think the fact they aren't automatic is why they are so important. Look at our prospect pool right now and our depth issues that have been issues for over 10 years at this point. If you buy a raffle ticket, do you ever just buy one singular ticket? Probably not. Yes the Hronek trade looks great, but imagine if we kept a few more of our other past first and second rounders and actually built a prospect pool and a depth chart from within. We wouldn't be scouring the trade market looking for cast offs to help the team. Our blueline has literally one dude who we drafted. Raty is arguably our 2nd best prospect. We didn't even draft him. I think we have a lot more in common with Edmonton than fans care to admit. If we didn't draft Demko, we'd literally just be them.

 

I love the Hronek deal, but I am just saying. Y'all don't care about draft picks then on the other side complain our prospect pool and depth chart is so barren. When the first part is the cause of the second part. If you want a deep team, that comes from drafting and drafting regularly. It's really depressing that the entire time we been sucking we still been trading picks instead of accumulating them. Now we potentially need to become buyers now because Petey and Hronek's extensions will eat our cap and the OEL buyout will hit us hard. I honestly think our window is very short because we have done so poorly in drafting. Unless Willander literally becomes McAvoy 2.0, Raty reaches his 2nd line center potential, and by some miracle Lekkerimaki becomes Pastrnak. I think our willy nilly handling of picks has put us in a shortened win now situation.

[Miss Korea]

uh oh

 

 

[Provost]

Talented young guys who have only been with one organization are fairly good “buy low” bets.

 

Sometimes a change of scenery and a new coaching staff can turn a guy around.

 

Once a guy has failed in a few spots he becomes a bad bet.

[Jeremy Hronek]

36 minutes ago, Provost said:

Talented young guys who have only been with one organization are fairly good “buy low” bets.

 

Sometimes a change of scenery and a new coaching staff can turn a guy around.

 

Once a guy has failed in a few spots he becomes a bad bet.

 

[The Lock]

I remember when people on CDC we really high on this kid and wanted us to draft him if he had fallen.

 

Glad he didn't and became Edmonton's problem instead. lol

[The Lock]

5 hours ago, Rekker said:

Another example of putting too much value on a first round pick. Hronek looks pretty good, same with JT. OJ and Jake, Broberg, not so much. A first rounder is far, far from automatic. 

 

To be fair though, look at a lot of the players drafted around him. Cozens just before him. Zegras just after him. A 1st round is of course not guaranteed but when only 2 or 3 of the 1st 10 players (depending on how you view Podz or Kakko, etc) are looking not so good... that's still an 70-80% chance roughly from that draft if you're drafting around 8th.

 

Of course, that also really depends on how you look at it, but there's at least arguably not any clear cut flops as of yet (although Turcotte's looking pretty close to that imo).

Edited December 6, 2023 by The Lock

[canuck73_3]

On 12/5/2023 at 11:23 PM, The Lock said:

I remember when people on CDC we really high on this kid and wanted us to draft him if he had fallen.

 

Glad he didn't and became Edmonton's problem instead. lol

To be fair Edmonton is horrendous at developing defenseman. even Bouchard is just skating by on offensive numbers alone. any other team would have had him working on his defensive play. Same with Nurse no reeling him in on multiple poorly time moronic penalties. 

[Chickenspear]

On 12/5/2023 at 8:03 PM, Miss Korea said:

uh oh

 

 

Suffer, Edmonton!

[Coconuts]

On 12/5/2023 at 7:05 PM, Rekker said:

Another example of putting too much value on a first round pick. Hronek looks pretty good, same with JT. OJ and Jake, Broberg, not so much. A first rounder is far, far from automatic. 

 

I disagree, and you've highlighted why. The value of 1st round picks is dependent on an organization's ability to draft well, which is something the Oil have largely struggled with for years. Despite his being reputed as a draft guru when he came in, most of our picks under Benning were misses, at least beyond the 1st round.

 

Drafting and development have been weaknesses for years, but the 1st round was still the only round we had a whole lot of success in. 

 

Virtanen was an NHL'er but underwhelmed, McCann never got a shot here but turned out eventually elsewhere. Boeser worked out. Juolevi wound up busting, but injuries derailed his development. Pettersson would go higher in a redraft, Hughes fell to us but we still grabbed him. Podz is up in the air, but he'll probably at least be an NHL'er. 

 

Three of our core pieces are former 1st round picks. Folks home in on Olli and Jake but overall, but we still had some big hits in the 1st round. Could we have done better? Certainly, but we could have also done worse. 

 

Beyond the 1st round though, it's been ugly.

 

Demko turned out for us from 2014, 2nd round. Forsling went on to have success elsewhere, 5th round. Tryamkin got a chunk of a season and then never came back.

Gaudette was a 5th rounder who wound up being an NHL tweener. 2015.

Lockwood is a 2016 3rd rounder, never amounted to much but has still gotten a taste.

Lind, a 2nd rounder from 2017 is a tweener, Gadjovich has carved out more of a role for himself, also a 2nd rounder. Rathbone, a 4th rounder, another tweener.

Hughes is the only 2018 player to actually amount to anything, Woo is in the system as a 2nd rounder but has yet to play an NHL game.

2019, too early to say. Hoglander has been a hit, Silovs and Mcdonough might be. 

2020 onward is up in the air. 

 

But yeah, lot of missed picks outside the 1st round. I'd say we've drafted better the last couple drafts but time will tell. 1st rounders aren't automatic but we've still done pretty well with them when we've actually used them, at least under Benning onward. Allvin and Rutherford seem to be placing emphasis on using their high picks, I look forward to seeing how those players turn out. 

 

Can top picks be parlayed into players? Sure, but the best way to get top players is still to draft and develop them yourself. 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Coconuts

[Rekker]

2 hours ago, Coconuts said:

 

I disagree, and you've highlighted why. The value of 1st round picks is dependent on an organization's ability to draft well, which is something the Oil have largely struggled with for years. Despite his being reputed as a draft guru when he came in, most of our picks under Benning were misses, at least beyond the 1st round.

 

Drafting and development have been weaknesses for years, but the 1st round was still the only round we had a whole lot of success in. 

 

Virtanen was an NHL'er but underwhelmed, McCann never got a shot here but turned out eventually elsewhere. Boeser worked out. Juolevi wound up busting, but injuries derailed his development. Pettersson would go higher in a redraft, Hughes fell to us but we still grabbed him. Podz is up in the air, but he'll probably at least be an NHL'er. 

 

Three of our core pieces are former 1st round picks. Folks home in on Olli and Jake but overall, but we still had some big hits in the 1st round. Could we have done better? Certainly, but we could have also done worse. 

 

Beyond the 1st round though, it's been ugly.

 

Demko turned out for us from 2014, 2nd round. Forsling went on to have success elsewhere, 5th round. Tryamkin got a chunk of a season and then never came back.

Gaudette was a 5th rounder who wound up being an NHL tweener. 2015.

Lockwood is a 2016 3rd rounder, never amounted to much but has still gotten a taste.

Lind, a 2nd rounder from 2017 is a tweener, Gadjovich has carved out more of a role for himself, also a 2nd rounder. Rathbone, a 4th rounder, another tweener.

Hughes is the only 2018 player to actually amount to anything, Woo is in the system as a 2nd rounder but has yet to play an NHL game.

2019, too early to say. Hoglander has been a hit, Silovs and Mcdonough might be. 

2020 onward is up in the air. 

 

But yeah, lot of missed picks outside the 1st round. I'd say we've drafted better the last couple drafts but time will tell. 1st rounders aren't automatic but we've still done pretty well with them when we've actually used them, at least under Benning onward. Allvin and Rutherford seem to be placing emphasis on using their high picks, I look forward to seeing how those players turn out. 

 

Can top picks be parlayed into players? Sure, but the best way to get top players is still to draft and develop them yourself. 

 

 

It's situational. For sure, drafting and developing is everything. But not. It's dependent on where a team is in its cycle and where it's weaknesses are as to the value of the pick. My point is more that Hronek and Miller are the core of this team and they cost firsts to aquire. Firsts that could of ended up future Jakes or Juolevis but instead are studs. Picks are just lottery tickets so the more the better and hope you can develop the picks. The Canucks picking and developing power forwards like JT equals crap. The Canucks picking and developing quality top two D equals crap. Those picks were used wisely to aquire JT and Hronek yet many wanted the magic beans instead. You roll your dice either way, but just keeping all your firsts, just because, isn't fullproof and definitely not the only way to build a team. 

[HKSR]

20 minutes ago, Rekker said:

It's situational. For sure, drafting and developing is everything. But not. It's dependent on where a team is in its cycle and where it's weaknesses are as to the value of the pick. My point is more that Hronek and Miller are the core of this team and they cost firsts to aquire. Firsts that could of ended up future Jakes or Juolevis but instead are studs. Picks are just lottery tickets so the more the better and hope you can develop the picks. The Canucks picking and developing power forwards like JT equals crap. The Canucks picking and developing quality top two D equals crap. Those picks were used wisely to aquire JT and Hronek yet many wanted the magic beans instead. You roll your dice either way, but just keeping all your firsts, just because, isn't fullproof and definitely not the only way to build a team. 

 

The way I look at it is that if you can acquire a proven NHL talent that is young and cost controlled in a valuable position (ie. RHD or centreman), then a 1st round pick (especially one that is not in the top 10) is worth it.  Even more so if that 1st round pick is in the late teens or 20s of the draft board.

 

Think about if a guy like Cernak became available... I'd be all over that.  1st round pick would be on the table without a doubt.

[Rekker]

3 minutes ago, HKSR said:

 

The way I look at it is that if you can acquire a proven NHL talent that is young and cost controlled in a valuable position (ie. RHD or centreman), then a 1st round pick (especially one that is not in the top 10) is worth it.  Even more so if that 1st round pick is in the late teens or 20s of the draft board.

 

Think about if a guy like Cernak became available... I'd be all over that.  1st round pick would be on the table without a doubt.

Absolutely. Ask any Oilers fan if they would rather have Hronek or Broberg. I agree, if the first is traded wisely for quality, youngish players with term to fill a position of need, pull the trigger. This team is at a point where trading our first for a Dman like Cernak makes total sense. 

[Coconuts]

31 minutes ago, Rekker said:

It's situational. For sure, drafting and developing is everything. But not. It's dependent on where a team is in its cycle and where it's weaknesses are as to the value of the pick. My point is more that Hronek and Miller are the core of this team and they cost firsts to aquire. Firsts that could of ended up future Jakes or Juolevis but instead are studs. Picks are just lottery tickets so the more the better and hope you can develop the picks. The Canucks picking and developing power forwards like JT equals crap. The Canucks picking and developing quality top two D equals crap. Those picks were used wisely to aquire JT and Hronek yet many wanted the magic beans instead. You roll your dice either way, but just keeping all your firsts, just because, isn't fullproof and definitely not the only way to build a team. 

 

There isn't just one way to build a team, certainly, but it's no coincidence that if you look across the league that most team's stars are players they drafted and developed themselves. Same goes for us. 

 

Gotta use picks to have a chance at landing those players, but you've gotta develop em too. Hopefully the Canucks get better at both, drafting outside the first round and developing players in house has been a weakness for years. 

 

Thing is, the only way to change a narrative like that is to actually put effort into changing it, which will involve drafting and developing players. Using a pick to acquire a player once in a while isn't bad, but I'd prefer we hold on to our picks. We've got a lot to prove before we can be considered contenders, bit early to go "all-in". 

 

Gotta balance competing with an NHL roster vs building the future, our prospect pool still ain't great despite it finally having some blue chip prospects again. Players stepping in on ELC's will be all the more important as we sign Pettersson, Boeser, Demko, and eventually Hughes to their next deals. Hronek won't come cheap either. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Coconuts

[Rekker]

Just now, Coconuts said:

 

There isn't just one way to build a team, certainly, but it's no coincidence that if you look across the league that most team's stars are players they drafted and developed themselves. Same goes for us. 

 

Gotta use picks to have a chance at landing those players, but you've gotta develop em too. Hopefully the Canucks get better at both, drafting outside the first round and developing players in house has been a weakness for years. 

 

Thing is, the only way to change a narrative like that is to actually put effort into changing it, which will involve drafting and developing players. Using a pick to acquire a player once in a while isn't bad, but I'd prefer we hold on to our picks. We've got a lot to prove before we can be considered contenders, bit early to go "all-in". 

I would definitely rather keep picks and develop, but like you said, no one way to build a team. Like a soup with different ingredients everytime. As a Canucks fan since 82, I cringe at our teams success at drafting and developing quality D. It's atrocious, same with power forwards, power wingers. This team now, as is, cannot wait for another maybe, especially when that maybe comes from the crap history we've had. The first for Hronek was perfect. I applauded it at the time and it's easy to stand by now. 

[Rekker]

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Thing is, the only way to change a narrative like that is to actually put effort into changing it, which will involve drafting and developing players

I agree, just this isn't the time to change the narrative. We have a window with a cheap Vezina goalie and value contracts in JT, Hughes. They gotta go for it next three years. Some promise coming up now in our prospects that hopefully ad entry level contracts during this window. I have a feeling EP signs a three year deal below market, maybe 9.5 during this window. Just a hunch. Then he will still have many valuable UFA years to optimize. 

[Northern_Nuck]

I could see him packaged with a 1st and campbell + maybe an additional 2nd to get Mrazek out of Chicago or Merzilkins out of Columbus. 

[flickyoursedin]

He’s Swedish so Alvin is surely looking into the ask

[NHL97OneTimer]

On 12/5/2023 at 7:58 PM, JeremyCuddles said:

I love the Hronek deal, but I am just saying. Y'all don't care about draft picks then on the other side complain our prospect pool and depth chart is so barren. When the first part is the cause of the second part. If you want a deep team, that comes from drafting and drafting regularly. It's really depressing that the entire time we been sucking we still been trading picks instead of accumulating them. Now we potentially need to become buyers now because Petey and Hronek's extensions will eat our cap and the OEL buyout will hit us hard. I honestly think our window is very short because we have done so poorly in drafting. Unless Willander literally becomes McAvoy 2.0, Raty reaches his 2nd line center potential, and by some miracle Lekkerimaki becomes Pastrnak. I think our willy nilly handling of picks has put us in a shortened win now situation.

Yeah but you can't ignore the players we got in return and how the timing of having those players now when we need them is so very important.  Hronek, JT, Smith, heck even Lafferty have key roles right now.  The picks are not slam dunks. 

[JeremyCuddles]

3 minutes ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

Yeah but you can't ignore the players we got in return and how the timing of having those players now when we need them is so very important.  Hronek, JT, Smith, heck even Lafferty have key roles right now.  The picks are not slam dunks. 

Yeah, we need to trade for those guys cause we keep trading picks away. Lol. We should have had a Hronek in the system already. Not hoping someone is dumb enough to gift them to us. Our blueline right now has one dude that we drafted. Our top 6 has 3 legit top 6 talent in it and we only drafted 2 of them. For reference, in 2011 we had the Sedins and Burrows. We drafted the Sedins and picked up Burrows undrafted. I don't fully remember the 2nd line but I think it was MayRay, Kesler and Samuelsson. We drafted 2 of those guys.

 

The pieces we need to reach actual contender status right now are players most good teams draft themselves. You don't fill important gaps with trades. Cause those guys are usually super expensive. Unless you get lucky with Yzerman gifting us a top 4 RHD. We have been ass for 10 years and have Pettersson, Hughes, and Demko to show for it right now. That's because we kept trying to shortcut our way to contention by trading picks. I get not every pick is a guarantee to get you anything. That's usually why you stockpile a bunch of them. Again, if you want to win a raffle you usually don't buy one ticket. You buy a bunch.