Is Kuzmenko negative value now ?

[Alflives]

12 hours ago, Blue said:

I want him to be here and succeed. But I think it's already a hopeless situation with him and Tocchet. 

 

What is his value ? 

 

Just like Boeser last year , teams are going to low ball us. I can't see anyone offering more than a 3rd round pick. 

 

What's the minimum you'd want for him ? A 2nd ?

Kuz Missile is certainly not negative value. The Canucks aren’t calling other teams about him; other teams are calling them to ask cost to acquire. If Allvin gets what he wants then he will move the Missile. 

[IBatch]

12 hours ago, -AJ- said:

No way he's negative value. He's obvious below his mean level right now and will likely return to somewhere between last year and this year. Any astute hockey mind will see that and factor it into his value.

Cap space is a problem.   If we want to gain some picks and cap space ...there aren't many teams that have enough for his full hit.   But there are a few.    If teams are calling about him, Allvin for sure will be listening.    If we do trade him, it could be to acquire something else later.   Personally hope he can work through it. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by IBatch

[King Heffy]

2 hours ago, spook007 said:

Why on earth would they fire Tocchet, Heffy?

Realizing they should have never hired a coach with character issues.

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Petey wants to play on a winning team.   RT overachieved in ARI.    Everyone was freaking out in the pre-season because we weren't winning games.   Then we had the best start in club history.   EPs had slumps with every coach he's had so far.    And had stretches where he's not on.    Also said before the season, that we wants to dedicate more time playing defense, knowing full well that will effect his individual stats.      
 

Lafferty is working with EP.   Maybe it's not a permanent.   But it's working.   Ilya Mikheyev, was Bieksa's pick for a breakout season, with our without EP.   And having followed his career since TO's days, he's not chopped liver.  A solid middle six swiss army knife.   That plays both sides of the puck.  

 

I will take win one, lose one, instead of a losing streak, followed by a winning streak every day of the week.    We aren't getting blown out.   I don't find the hockey "boring".    The whole purpose of having a system, is for when the teams tired (which they have been after Oct/Nov schedule) they can rely on it.   And each other more.   

 

I'm sure they want Kuzmenko in their top six.  It's on him to work through it.    And make the best of the opportunities when they arise.   
 

That ARI team, wasn't very good.   This one's better.   And should get even better the way Allvins pushing the envelope.   

 

Kind of an important point that Lafferty is working well with Petey. I don't see the need to break that up atm. Same with Hogs and Miller, leave that alone.

 

If Kuzy does stay here maybe it has to be as a 3rd line/ PP guy. Suter is pretty skilled so maybe there's a good fit between those two.

[Reznor]

If the environment has truly soured like the media is making it out to be, then it might be best to move on. I don't fault RT for trying to force all his players to play a 2-way, defensively responsible game. You let up on one guy, and others take the night off defensively as well. Then you end up with the Oilers.

 

I really like Kuz, but if it isn't going to work, then as long as he doesn't have negative value, replace him with a player who works more to the system.

[Mando27]

7 hours ago, Alflives said:

Kuz Missile is certainly not negative value. The Canucks aren’t calling other teams about him; other teams are calling them to ask cost to acquire. If Allvin gets what he wants then he will move the Missile. 

Pretty much sums it up, I seriously doubt the Canucks are the ones looking to move him. Other teams see him struggling and are trying to get him for peanuts right now.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Mando27

[KoreanHockeyFan]

I'm optimistic Kuzmenko will get out of his funk, but the emergence of Hoglander has made me wonder if Kuzmenko would be better off being a useful trade piece at this point. We could use the cap space, recoup a draft pick and open up a spot for one of our prospects (e.g., Podz? Lekkerimaki?)

 

The bottom 6 has been a surprise story for me for this season so far. Not to mention how well Abby is doing this year. I think we have enough talent in the farm system to make players like Kuzmenko expendable.  

[5forFighting]

Look no further than Brock to see how one season to the next can go. Don't sell on Kuz. 

[wai_lai416]

Not necessary negative value in the sense that you have to add or retain to trade him.. but I think he has no value beyond a 6th or 7th. I think there are teams interested in him, but at the same time they are in 0 rush to make a play for him.. the longer they wait the less they have to pay.. I don’t see kuzmenko breaking out of his funk with this team. Since day 1 of RT hiring.. it’s clear he’s not RTs guy. He had his minutes reduced and scratched last season as soon as they hired RT. He doesn’t care if you can score he only cares if you are willing to play defence first. We don’t really see much odd man rushes for the Canucks because RT doesn’t want anyone out of the defensive zone before the puck is out. He’s very tentative and very hesitant to take risk in the offensive zone because he knows he’s getting benched if he makes a mistake. The longer he struggles under RT the more willing the Canucks will give him away for nothing or even an expiring cap dump on their end just to free up cap space. 

[kilgore]

1 hour ago, 5forFighting said:

Look no further than Brock to see how one season to the next can go. Don't sell on Kuz. 

 Or even Petey at the start of last season.

I think Kuz has a tougher time than others to adapt to such a strict defensive system. He's played a lot of his career in Russia, where scorers are not required to backcheck, and they have other komrades to forecheck and dig the puck out and que the puck up for them. 

It doesn't mean its impossible.  He could be thriving here again by the end of the season.  You don't give up on a player who came in his first year and scored 39 goals. With his stats this season you will never get back any kind of replacement that is equal to the promise of a Kuzmenko who has finally adapted to the NHL and Tocchets systems.

 

My only fear is that Tocchet has already made his mind up on him, and has told Allvin that he cant work with him.  This is just opinion based on how I have understood both personalities, but I got the impression that Tocc  was NOT impressed with Kuz's happy go lucky demeanour last season.  Bananas and chocolate bars from fans. Joking around. Smiling all the time.  That already rubbed RT the wrong way. Then he does his own thing after the season, travelling and chilling in Bali out of the eyesight of the Vancouver coaching staff to make sure he is training hard.  And then comes in out of shape somewhat. Or seemed to be with him being always behind the play. 

 

Its also on Kuz for his part, and I also fear that he will leave, and like Grabner, he will realize after the shock of a trade, and realizes, too late for Vancouver, what it takes to play in the NHL, and becomes a consistent 30 goal scorer on another team and all we got back was a 4th round pick or another "project" that ultimately fails.  And maybe, just maybe, if we kept him around, and if Tocc had a little more patience, he could be a valuable piece in our quest for the Cup

[The Arrogant Worms]

Canucks, Rutherford will 'continue to try to help' struggling Kuzmenko

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/canucks-rutherford-will-continue-to-try-to-help-struggling-kuzmenko/

[Blue]

10 hours ago, IBatch said:

Cap space is a problem.   If we want to gain some picks and cap space ...there aren't many teams that have enough for his full hit.   But there are a few.    If teams are calling about him, Allvin for sure will be listening.    If we do trade him, it could be to acquire something else later.   Personally hope he can work through it. 

Chances are, if we get a forward back, it wont be a forward with 39 goals on his resume. We gotta keep him and Kuz and Tocc should meet in the middle regarding his style of play

[Blue]

1 hour ago, kilgore said:

 Or even Petey at the start of last season.

I think Kuz has a tougher time than others to adapt to such a strict defensive system. He's played a lot of his career in Russia, where scorers are not required to backcheck, and they have other komrades to forecheck and dig the puck out and que the puck up for them. 

It doesn't mean its impossible.  He could be thriving here again by the end of the season.  You don't give up on a player who came in his first year and scored 39 goals. With his stats this season you will never get back any kind of replacement that is equal to the promise of a Kuzmenko who has finally adapted to the NHL and Tocchets systems.

 

My only fear is that Tocchet has already made his mind up on him, and has told Allvin that he cant work with him.  This is just opinion based on how I have understood both personalities, but I got the impression that Tocc  was NOT impressed with Kuz's happy go lucky demeanour last season.  Bananas and chocolate bars from fans. Joking around. Smiling all the time.  That already rubbed RT the wrong way. Then he does his own thing after the season, travelling and chilling in Bali out of the eyesight of the Vancouver coaching staff to make sure he is training hard.  And then comes in out of shape somewhat. Or seemed to be with him being always behind the play. 

 

Its also on Kuz for his part, and I also fear that he will leave, and like Grabner, he will realize after the shock of a trade, and realizes, too late for Vancouver, what it takes to play in the NHL, and becomes a consistent 30 goal scorer on another team and all we got back was a 4th round pick or another "project" that ultimately fails.  And maybe, just maybe, if we kept him around, and if Tocc had a little more patience, he could be a valuable piece in our quest for the Cup

 

I agree with most of this. But it was obvious from looking at Kuzmenko after his summer that he worked out hard. He had full abs and was ripped.

 

Grabner is a good comparison. But it wasn't just him being shocked into becoming a real NHL'er. He always had the talent. And Kuz does too.

 

Its kind of annoying knowing that Tocchet obviously made exceptions to his rules for that runt Phil Kessel. But I guess he wasn't the head coach at that time.

[cripplereh]

A free player that has his ability is never negative value.

 

Why would anyone ask that???  

 

If anything it would be like a regular person winning $250000 .

[iceman1964]

13 hours ago, Reznor said:

If the environment has truly soured like the media is making it out to be, then it might be best to move on. I don't fault RT for trying to force all his players to play a 2-way, defensively responsible game. You let up on one guy, and others take the night off defensively as well. Then you end up with the Oilers.

 

I really like Kuz, but if it isn't going to work, then as long as he doesn't have negative value, replace him with a player who works more to the system.

I would believe the media like next to NEVER! As soon as the slightest thing goes wrong, they're all over hoping they won't be left in the dust with someone else doing it first, they over blow next to everything.

 I've said it a lot, our media especially, is of the bush league variety. Seems to me it's as simple as a high scorer adjusting his game to play a different style than what he's used to and in time it will work itself out and this is definitely one of those times but this is Vancouver remember, from Hero to zero in less than a heartbeat. 

Could we throw someone under the bus any faster? Idk ask Luongo about that and JT Miller as well, when JT wasn't playing very well at one point it was trade trade trade but look at him now, I would put next to zero stock in the media b.s.

 It's simply clickbait at best.

Oh and let's not forget the Petey scenario either, he took time to adjust his game to playing D better as well and it didn't happen over night and the CDC was crying "bust" and then he got better as he went along... 

 Meh, another day in canuckland...  I wouldn't worry about it, Kuz will be fine. 

 

[Jatt Sharabi]

No, he's not negative value. This fanbase is ridiculous. He's having a sophomore slump and yet he's still somewhat producing. He has 15 pts in 25 games playing 15mins a game. That is decent production and his cap hit isn't terrible. He overperformed last yr, 60 points avg would be suitable for Kuz during during his career. 

[-Buzzsaw-]

Some people on this forum think pure goalscorers with the offensive skills of Kuzmenko are a dime a dozen.

 

They aren't.

 

Just like Brock Boeser, Kuzzy has top tier offensive skills in his shooting and play with the puck.

 

He demonstrated that 39 times last season... how many players get to 39 goals in their first season in the NHL?

 

He still has those skills, but what is missing is confidence... he is gripping his stick too hard, not shooting when he should and generally is over thinking every play.

 

But that is not uncommon for NHL goalscorers... and most work through these mental problems if they get support from their coaches and the team.

 

The problem with Kuzzy's situation is that Tocchet is piling on top of his temporary scoring drought, the need for Kuzzy to play to a certain style... which is inhibiting his ability to be creative and play to his strengths.

 

Sure, everyone has to be defensively responsible, but there is a balance.  A pure goalscorer who can fill the net should not be held to the same standards as a plugger.

 

The key to the balance is Plus/Minus... how many goals for and how many against.

 

If Kuzzy can pot 30 goals, then a few defensive gaffes don't matter.

 

But Tocchet is holding him to the same standards as Aman or Blueger.

 

Meanwhile Pettersson's line is suffering from a lack of production.  (last game not withstanding)

 

And Kuzzy's trade value is dropping every minute.

 

Don't kid yourself, other teams are salivating at the thought of adding him... but of course, they want him on the cheap with Cap retention by the Canucks.

 

What sense does it make to grind this guys confidence out of him when you lose twice... first in production, and second in CAP loss?

 

Kuzmenko's situation needs a new appraisal from management/coaches.

 

 

[Reznor]

23 hours ago, iceman1964 said:

I would believe the media like next to NEVER! As soon as the slightest thing goes wrong, they're all over hoping they won't be left in the dust with someone else doing it first, they over blow next to everything.

 

You're entirely correct. I also read in the media that there was a statement that they are going to continue working with Kuz. He has a very bright personality, and it would be a shame for them to move on - especially given his obvious talent. But if he doesn't WANT to be in Vancouver because the coach is too tough on him, well - that's not the kind of attitude we need on this team.

[Junkyard Dog]

Nope. 

[Jack Gordon]

I think Andrei has been going through a bout of homesickness for Yakutsk.

 

I'm sure he will be fine...

[Jack Gordon]

 

[boziffous]

On 12/11/2023 at 5:45 PM, wai_lai416 said:

Not necessary negative value in the sense that you have to add or retain to trade him.. but I think he has no value beyond a 6th or 7th. I think there are teams interested in him, but at the same time they are in 0 rush to make a play for him.. the longer they wait the less they have to pay.. I don’t see kuzmenko breaking out of his funk with this team. Since day 1 of RT hiring.. it’s clear he’s not RTs guy. He had his minutes reduced and scratched last season as soon as they hired RT. He doesn’t care if you can score he only cares if you are willing to play defence first. We don’t really see much odd man rushes for the Canucks because RT doesn’t want anyone out of the defensive zone before the puck is out. He’s very tentative and very hesitant to take risk in the offensive zone because he knows he’s getting benched if he makes a mistake. The longer he struggles under RT the more willing the Canucks will give him away for nothing or even an expiring cap dump on their end just to free up cap space. 

 

The one game Kuzmenko was scratched for last season was in November when Boudreau was the head coach. Kuzmenko's ice time last season actually increased a little after Tocchet took over as head coach.

 

Kuzmenko stats last season with Boudreau as coach

45 games (19g-22a-41p) 16:01 ATOI

 

Kuzmenko stats last season with Tocchet as coach

36 games (20g-13a-33p) 16:32 ATOI

 

[Bob Long]

10 hours ago, Reznor said:

 

You're entirely correct. I also read in the media that there was a statement that they are going to continue working with Kuz. He has a very bright personality, and it would be a shame for them to move on - especially given his obvious talent. But if he doesn't WANT to be in Vancouver because the coach is too tough on him, well - that's not the kind of attitude we need on this team.

 

His attitude seems great about this. We will see if he can be consistent but it sure seems like he's working hard and not whining.

[IBatch]

16 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

His attitude seems great about this. We will see if he can be consistent but it sure seems like he's working hard and not whining.

Zero whining.   

[IBatch]

54 minutes ago, boziffous said:

 

The one game Kuzmenko was scratched for last season was in November when Boudreau was the head coach. Kuzmenko's ice time last season actually increased a little after Tocchet took over as head coach.

 

Kuzmenko stats last season with Boudreau as coach

45 games (19g-22a-41p) 16:01 ATOI

 

Kuzmenko stats last season with Tocchet as coach

36 games (20g-13a-33p) 16:32 ATOI

 

Hey!  That doesn't fit the narrative.