Discussion: Kuzmenko Plight; as Jannik sees it........

[tas]

7 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Petey also uses Instagram just as much as Kuzmenko, posting pictures of himself surfing, boating and laying on a beach.  Pretty normal stuff for a guy in his 20's.  

 

I would agree he is probably not fit.  He doesn't have the body type that screams fitness for an NHL player.  Boeser is the same way.  Boeser had years to finally figure it out.  This is Kuzy's 2nd year.  He's like a 20 year old kid in the NHL if you think about it.  Plus he barely spoke a word of English up until this year.

 

Lots of people making excuses for Boeser the last 5 years.  Not sure why Kuzmenko doesn't get the same slack as Boeser, being it's only his second year in the league...

I'm extending slack to kuzy personally. and the organization is definitely extending slack to kuzy having worked out a plan to get him where he needs to be. the problem is that this team is no longer has room for a guy who's trying to learn on the fly. 

 

I have all the time in the world for kuzmenko as long as there's a clear determination to do what's necessary. but this team needs to make hay. 

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, Drive-By Body Pierce said:

 

Gretzky actually played defence for awhile when he was a kid, to make it easier for to get more ice time. It also helped him develop his hockey IQ and gain his otherworldly level of anticipation at both ends of the ice.

 

Gretzky spent most of his time with the puck on his stick.  He was my favourite player of all time.  I watched his entire career.  He spent most of his time in the neutral or offensive zone.  Their wasn't much backchecking back in those days.  The Oilers usually left Fuhr out to dry and won games 9-6.  Coffey was a 4th forward on the ice, much like Hughes is today...

[MeanSeanBean]

3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Panarin has already bounced around the league and is on his 3rd team.  He was traded after his 3rd season.  I'm assuming the coaches weren't too happy with his defensive play either even though he put up points every season.  Kuzmenko will probably suffer the same fate until he is put in a position to succeed based on his skill set.  Trade him to Edmonton and he probably gets 50+ goals...

Apples and oranges. Panarins lack of physicality has been well documented. He's also scored 704 points in his 620 games. If Kuzmeko was over a point per a game player no one would care he's not engaged defensively or physically. but that's not the case.

 

Also, was he not traded because Chicago didn't have the cap space to retain him with their Uber expensive core. Then the jackets back up a truck full of money where he decided to leave and go to the Rangers.

 

Panarin is well worth the price of admission. He's one of the few players in the league who can outscore he's issues. Kuzmeko is not one of those players, and he'll need to figure that out of he wants to stay in the league.

[Elias Pettersson]

3 minutes ago, tas said:

I'm extending slack to kuzy personally. and the organization is definitely extending slack to kuzy having worked out a plan to get him where he needs to be. the problem is that this team is no longer has room for a guy who's trying to learn on the fly. 

 

I have all the time in the world for kuzmenko as long as there's a clear determination to do what's necessary. but this team needs to make hay. 

 

Oh, I agree.  Which is why I ultimately believe it isn't going to work out and Kuzy will be traded.  I don't see how he can reverse all of his bad habits over 20 years of playing hockey in just a few months.  They either let him loose so he can score goals like last year or they trade him.

[Ballisticsports]

3 hours ago, Phil_314 said:

Yeah, not every skilled winger ought to be treated like he's fit to become a two-way winger.  As great as it would be, expecting a skilled Russian to fit a heavy forechecking system that doesn't let him maximize his individual skillset isn't a recipe for success.

 

His success over the teams you must mean *He scored that on a losing team)

He wasn't a prolific goal scorer in the KHL (career KHL 14.7%)

He had a 27.3% shooting last year that would be hard to repeat

 

Before we get carried away Loui Ericksson had a high % once too

I would rather have him play the right way

RT has simply said play to the staples so your mates know where to be and for him not be concerned about scoring (that will come)

 

We are leading the NHL in scoring right now without his scoring and tops in the league in standings

Why not let Kuz figure if he wants to be a part of this or not, rather than let him play as he wants?

What is wrong with having him be a better team player for a winning team?

t

 

Here are all the players since the 2004-05 lockout who recorded a shooting percentage above 20% with at least 100 shots on goal prior to this past season. In those 16 seasons, just 30 players had a shooting percentage above 20%, with two players managing to do it more than once, Alex Tanguay and T.J. Oshie. 

[Goose]

20 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Completely disagree with you. It's entirely evident that Tocc does see how disengaged Kuzmeko is. Blocks and his are a sign your heads in the game, your playing for the team. If you can come up with stats to quantify Rick saying "Kuzmeko needs to forcheck, let's start with that's when asking how Kuzmeko can get back into the line up, that I'm all ears.

 

Kuzmeko has not only been entirely invisible, but he's been an actively hindering the team defensively this year. You can not do that when you aren't out scoring your negatives. 

 

Tocc has said himself he doesnt think all players need to “kill guys”.  Again, if Kuzy was moving his feet, creating pressure and being in good position I firmly believe Tocchett would be happy.

 

You seem to think “hits” are measurably the same.  10 hits from Tom Wilson are not the same as 10 hits from PDG.  

 

As for “quantifiable” - give it a rest.  Eye test can easily show how engaged a player is. 

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Apples and oranges. Panarins lack of physicality has been well documented. He's also scored 704 points in his 620 games. If Kuzmeko was over a point per a game player no one would care he's not engaged defensively or physically. but that's not the case.

 

Also, was he not traded because Chicago didn't have the cap space to retain him with their Uber expensive core. Then the jackets back up a truck full of money where he decided to leave and go to the Rangers.

 

Panarin is well worth the price of admission. He's one of the few players in the league who can outscore he's issues. Kuzmeko is not one of those players, and he'll need to figure that out of he wants to stay in the league.

 

Kuzmenko had 74 points last season, pretty much the same as Panarin in his first season.  Not sure why you are just using the last couple months to judge his NHL career.  Tocchet has been on his ass since training camp and Kuzy has not endeared himself to what the coach wants, which has hampered the rest of his game.  It's pretty obvious his stick is tight and he's scared to make a mistake.  That's affecting his offensive game as well.

[Elias Pettersson]

6 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said:

 

His success over the teams you must mean *He scored that on a losing team)

He wasn't a prolific goal scorer in the KHL (career KHL 14.7%)

He had a 27.3% shooting last year that would be hard to repeat

 

Before we get carried away Loui Ericksson had a high % once too

I would rather have him play the right way

RT has simply said play to the staples so your mates know where to be and for him not be concerned about scoring (that will come)

 

We are leading the NHL in scoring right now without his scoring and tops in the league in standings

Why not let Kuz figure if he wants to be a part of this or not, rather than let him play as he wants?

What is wrong with having him be a better team player for a winning team?

t

 

Here are all the players since the 2004-05 lockout who recorded a shooting percentage above 20% with at least 100 shots on goal prior to this past season. In those 16 seasons, just 30 players had a shooting percentage above 20%, with two players managing to do it more than once, Alex Tanguay and T.J. Oshie. 

 

Maybe Kuzy just can't play defence, not that he is REFUSING too.  Does that makes sense?  I'm sure Joshua wants to be a 40-goal scorer like Kuzy, but he doesn't know how to do it, he doesn't have the skill set for it.  Kuzy just doesn't have the skill set or the foot speed to be able to do what Tocchet wants him to do.  I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

 

Either you let him loose so he can do his thing or you trade him for a guy who knows how to forecheck...

Edited December 23, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Drive-By Body Pierce]

7 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Gretzky spent most of his time with the puck on his stick.  He was my favourite player of all time.  I watched his entire career.  He spent most of his time in the neutral or offensive zone.  Their wasn't much backchecking back in those days.  The Oilers usually left Fuhr out to dry and won games 9-6.  Coffey was a 4th forward on the ice, much like Hughes is today...

 

I didn't say there was. Just mentioned an interesting little known fact about his career.

 

I was a hockey fanatic kid growing up in Edmonton during that timeframe. So yeah, I watched a lot of Gretzky too.

[Gawdzukes]

2 hours ago, Neerlynormal said:

So you're inferring that Hansen has no idea of how Kuzmenko prepared for this season, unlike us at CFF. I didn't know that. 

 

I guess I'll have to agree with you then...

 

This Hansen character really needs to educate himself on the NHL game, if he wants to give informed opinions. These eastern media types that know nothing about Vancouver... Sheesh! I bet he never even played junior  

 

Man, it's like you don't understand English. I didn't say that at all. Totally dense. Try a little harder to not understand what I'm saying.  The thread creator asked if we had read the article and whether we agree with Hansen. I'm saying he doesn't have all the information needed so I don't necessarily agree with his stance. 3 posts in and you're already being a nitwit. Good job. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Drive-By Body Pierce said:

 

I didn't say there was. Just mentioned an interesting little known fact about his career.

 

I was a hockey fanatic kid growing up in Edmonton during that timeframe. So yeah, I watched a lot of Gretzky too.

Gretzky was great. Way better than Mcwhiner Baby. The Bsby Whiner will never win a Cup. He’s too cowardly. 

[Neerlynormal]

19 minutes ago, tas said:

you think jannik knows better than

 

tocchet

gonchar

foote

sedins

yeo

allvin

rutherford

milstein,who is far from shy about speaking out for his clients

and kuzmenko himself

 

?

 

oookie dokie. 

 

I absolutely don't know better than them. And I was completely unaware that all of those guys were in on the decision together to bench him. 

 

When it's all those guys making the decision together, it makes me ponder the future of the Sedins in the organization.Or is their knowledge of defensive play,and hitting just not up to snuff?

[Ballisticsports]

6 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Maybe Kuzy just can't play defence, not that he is REFUSING too.  Does that makes sense?  I'm sure Joshua wants to be a 40-goal scorer like Kuzy, but he doesn't know how to do it, he doesn't have the skill set for it.  Kuzy just doesn't have the skill set or the foot speed to be able to do what Tocchet wants him to do.  I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

 

Either you let him loose so he can do his thing or you trade him for a guy who knows how to forecheck...

I don't think RT is asking him to do things that he isn't capable of myself

RT was a player and has seen all kinds of players of all types of skills, sounds like he only wants him to work on the basic part of the game

Even BB said he was frustrated with him and said somedays Kuzmenko just isn't there

Edited December 23, 2023 by Ballisticsports

[Alflives]

Just now, Gawdzukes said:

 

Man, it's like you don't understand English. I didn't say that at all. Totally dense. Try a little harder to not understand what I'm saying.  The thread creator asked if we had read the article and whether we agree with Hansen. I'm saying he doesn't have all the information needed so I don't necessarily agree with his stance. 3 posts in and you're already being a nitwit. Good job. 

You’re clearly upset. Here’s some Malmacian porn to ease your mind. 

[MeanSeanBean]

3 minutes ago, Tofu_Bud said:

 

Tocc has said himself he doesnt think all players need to “kill guys”.  Again, if Kuzy was moving his feet, creating pressure and being in good position I firmly believe Tocchett would be happy.

 

You seem to think “hits” are measurably the same.  10 hits from Tom Wilson are not the same as 10 hits from PDG.  

 

As for “quantifiable” - give it a rest.  Eye test can easily show how engaged a player is. 

To bad Kuzmeko is doing none of that, eh. The eye test also shows Kuzmeko is entirely disengage and floating around the ice. He spins off checks, he cheats for offense, he's been downright terrible in his play off the puck.

 

I think nothing of the sort. Hits and blocks are one way you can show that a player is engaged on the defensive side of the game. Both those stats show Kuzmeko is not only not engaged, his actively avoiding engagement. The eye test backs that up. The coach saying Kuzmeko needs to move his feet and forcheck also backs that up.

 

Hits and blocks were an example, statistical proof that Kuzmeko has been disengaged this season. But if we want to use the coach's words, or the eye test that works to. If Kuzmeko was playing half decently and showing an sign of life on the defensive side I wouldn't care about his hits. Unfortunately for the team, that's not the case.

[MeanSeanBean]

21 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Kuzmenko had 74 points last season, pretty much the same as Panarin in his first season.  Not sure why you are just using the last couple months to judge his NHL career.  Tocchet has been on his ass since training camp and Kuzy has not endeared himself to what the coach wants, which has hampered the rest of his game.  It's pretty obvious his stick is tight and he's scared to make a mistake.  That's affecting his offensive game as well.

Because the last couple months are roughly 25% of his NHL career? Kuzmeko has also come over later in his career, so at the same age Panarin had already elevated to over a point a game, where Kuzmeko has regressed to being scratched. Further more, the only reason Panarin is even in this conversation is because someone else used him as the example, which I clearly said was a terrible comparison.

 

On his ass? Rightfully so. I was at training camp and it was evident that 2 players looked a step behind everyone else at training camp. Kuzmeko, and Joshua. Tocc layed down the lay and publically called out both players. Joshua answered the call, buckled down and started to take things seriously. That has shown in his elevation up the lineup, more ice time, and more points. Kuzmeko hasn't done anything to answer the bell. He gets scratched, gets back into the lineup, and pulls exactly the same moves as he was doing before the scratch. 

 

Kuzmeko was advised not to go to Bali on Vacation/training camp. He went anyways thinking he knew better. He did not, and these are the consequences of his actions. Kuzmeko seems like a great guy, but I have no sympathy for me multimillion dollar professional athletes who don't take it seriously.

Edited December 23, 2023 by MeanSeanBean

[Ballisticsports]

5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

You’re clearly upset. Here’s some Malmacian porn to ease your mind. 

Were you in the closet behind you Alf? 

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Kuzmenko doesn't have a Twitter account, so not sure what this bs statement is about...

 

Whatever platform all those videos of him training in Bali and boxing etc. Sure seemed like he was more interested in vacationing and putting out cool vids then focusing on hockey. Sorry if it wasn't on twitter. I'm thought it was tweets but whatever it was I definitely saw it lol. So no, not a bs statement.

 

Here's one I didn't see lol.

 

 

 

 

[Gurn]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Not talking about stats, I am talking about the two players.  They are comparable in style and the fact they both came from Russia at a later stage in their careers.  Neither one hits or forechecks.  The coaches need to give Kuzmenko some leeway just like Jannik Hansen said.  He's not some bang and crash guy like Joshua who simply has to play harder.  They are asking Kuzmenko to literally change his entire game.

If you are not producing stats the rest of your game is even more important. Panarin  is producing , Kuze is not.

[Elias Pettersson]

14 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

Whatever platform all those videos of him training in Bali and boxing etc. Sure seemed like he was more interested in vacationing and putting out cool vids then focusing on hockey. Sorry if it wasn't on twitter. I'm thought it was tweets but whatever it was I definitely saw it lol. So no, not a bs statement.

 

Here's one I didn't see lol.

 

 

 

 

Seems like Petey was enjoying himself as well in the summer and posting it on Instagram. I think it’s what guys in their 20’s do…

 

[D-Money]

54 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Panarin has already bounced around the league and is on his 3rd team.  He was traded after his 3rd season.  I'm assuming the coaches weren't too happy with his defensive play either even though he put up points every season.  Kuzmenko will probably suffer the same fate until he is put in a position to succeed based on his skill set.  Trade him to Edmonton and he probably gets 50+ goals...

 

LOL - Panarin wasn't traded because of that. 

 

You know what happens when you ASSUME, right?

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, D-Money said:

 

LOL - Panarin wasn't traded because of that. 

 

You know what happens when you ASSUME, right?

 

So, Chicago didn't care whether he hit or backchecked then.  Who cares...

[Gurn]

30 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said:

Were you in the closet behind you Alf? 

looks 'pretty' out to me.

[Gawdzukes]

35 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Apples and oranges. Panarins lack of physicality has been well documented. He's also scored 704 points in his 620 games. If Kuzmeko was over a point per a game player no one would care he's not engaged defensively or physically. but that's not the case.

 

Also, was he not traded because Chicago didn't have the cap space to retain him with their Uber expensive core. Then the jackets back up a truck full of money where he decided to leave and go to the Rangers.

 

Panarin is well worth the price of admission. He's one of the few players in the league who can outscore he's issues. Kuzmeko is not one of those players, and he'll need to figure that out of he wants to stay in the league.

 

Exactly. There are a lot of guys jumping to his defence but I'm not even ragging on him. Just pointing out some obvious things and answering the topic at hand. If Kuzmenko was producing like Panarin or the old Kane is doesn't matter if you hit, block, or forecheck, but it's totally fair to point out and notice.

[Sativika]

2 hours ago, Neerlynormal said:

So you're inferring that Hansen has no idea of how Kuzmenko prepared for this season, unlike us at CFF. I didn't know that. 

 

I guess I'll have to agree with you then...

 

This Hansen character really needs to educate himself on the NHL game, if he wants to give informed opinions. These eastern media types that know nothing about Vancouver... Sheesh! I bet he never even played junior  

 

Dude. Jannik Hansen was drafted by the Canucks in 2004 and was with 'em till he was traded to the Sharks in 2017. Yea. He knows the NHL; he knows this team; he knows this organization and the post Sedin growing pains this team suffered.

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're joking. But if you truly believe your statement above, well.............now you've been informed.

 

2 hours ago, Neerlynormal said:

Yeah, apparently there's this guy called Panarin or something with even fewer hits than Kuzmenko lol.

 

Maybe we could swap these two unengaged players? Of course, since Kuzmenko hits more, we could maybe get a prospect or a draft pick too!!! At the least!

 

No thanks to Panarin. I'll keep me a Kuzy, thank you!

 

2 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

See Steve Yzerman before and after Scotty Bowman took over.

All it takes is commitment. Willingness to try. He doesn't have to hit everything that moves.

Just use body position, active sticks, try to dodge players and avoid hits.

It won't happen in one game. But if he keeps working at it, he will be just fine.

Even just being aggressive getting after the puck.

Look at Garland. He's bought in, and playing like a fiend.

 

 

Steve Y was an awesome player. He was a heart 'n' soul type player. Only in Kuzy's dream could he ever be that guy. but he could try to achieve to be half that guy. As you mention; all those points mentioned above is what's required. I'm sure Kuzy will get to where he is needed.

 

36 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Oh, I agree.  Which is why I ultimately believe it isn't going to work out and Kuzy will be traded.  I don't see how he can reverse all of his bad habits over 20 years of playing hockey in just a few months.  They either let him loose so he can score goals like last year or they trade him.

 

29 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Maybe Kuzy just can't play defence, not that he is REFUSING too.  Does that makes sense?  I'm sure Joshua wants to be a 40-goal scorer like Kuzy, but he doesn't know how to do it, he doesn't have the skill set for it.  Kuzy just doesn't have the skill set or the foot speed to be able to do what Tocchet wants him to do.  I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

 

Either you let him loose so he can do his thing or you trade him for a guy who knows how to forecheck...

 

Well. JR mentioned in an earlier media thingy as to Kuzy's situation; he has to play through this and learn on the fly with the big club. They don't have the luxury of sending him to Abby because of his contract/waiver situations and such. (Not in those exact words.)

 

I'm pretty sure if they could send Kuz down, they certainly would. The proof is in the pudding as evident in Hoggy's improved play, and with Pods performance in Abby.

 

25 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said:

I don't think RT is asking him to do things that he isn't capable of myself

RT was a player and has seen all kinds of players of all types of skills, sounds like he only wants him to work on the basic part of the game

Even BB said he was frustrated with him and said somedays Kuzmenko just isn't there

 

Yea. I recall BB saying that. So it's obviously a thing both coaches see.

 

Our coaches aren't not asking much really. It sound simple and it really is. At least to say. For Kuzy, not to DO. He's just gotta put in the effort. Be engaged, be mindful, be aware. Some players need constant reminders. 

 

I had this thought that it might be a communication issue; grasping the English language and such. But Gonch, Ilya, Podz and now Zads are there to assist. Kuz has been in North America for a year and some now. Listening to him in English speaking interviews; he still seems to struggle somewhat. He certainly hasn't grasped English fully as yet.

 

At work we hired a Chinese dude who's in his 50's and has lived in Canada for 36 years. And man, his English sucks! He told me that he mostly worked with Chinese peeps till his last couple of jobs. The dude can hold an English conversation but he certainly doesn't have a full grasp of it. I dunno.

 

Perhaps Kuz isn't required, if you will, to speak much English because of his comrades on the team. That being said, I'm sure his Russian buddies are telling him what RT is saying and wants from him. Ahhhh....I'm rambling again .................

 

By and large, Hansen seems to me the voice of reason. Perhaps that's why he's sought after guess on hockey sports blog type shows. He says what he thinks. He's not an asshole about it, but he's pretty sure that his opinions matter to his listeners. That's why I like him I guess.