Gawdzukes Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 54 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Seems like Petey was enjoying himself as well in the summer and posting it on Instagram. I think it’s what guys in their 20’s do… I guess. You can either understand what I'm trying to say or don't. It's up to you. Petey is a superstar and he worked his ass off in the summer training. Maybe Kuz did too ... I don't know but the optics sure look like a guy who came in and blew the doors off last year and decided to just party it up all summer. Petey is 10th in scoring with 41 points ... he's earned some leeway. Kuz not so much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 11 hours ago, Jester13 said: This matches the eye test. Kuzy is out of shape. I question his in-season eating plan while on the road, as last year, he looked like he put on weight from eating poorly and then his skating declined. I see the same this year as well. He doesn't skate hard, ever. He has zero stamina. Whip him into shape or trade him if he can't have it sink in on how to be a pro at the NHL level. JR says he is in top condition, worked really hard, just didnt focus on the right things for hockey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 3 hours ago, Gawdzukes said: Exactly. There are a lot of guys jumping to his defence but I'm not even ragging on him. Just pointing out some obvious things and answering the topic at hand. If Kuzmenko was producing like Panarin or the old Kane is doesn't matter if you hit, block, or forecheck, but it's totally fair to point out and notice. Tocchet said his staples are "non-negotiable". So it DOES matter if you don't forecheck or backcheck. He benched Miller this year. If Kuzy had 20 goals this year, he would still be scratched from the lineup, if we are to take Tocchet at his word... I wonder what Tocchet would do if he was the coach of Edmonton. Would he be benching McDavid and Draisaitl for not backchecking? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowman955 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 I do believe in PA,JR,RT The Kuz missle , is missing out on the needs required. Yet they still admit to open dialog on addressing THE issue. Problem is. Garland sat and learned. Dakota Joshua sat and learned. They both earned ice time. When l had the privilege to watch our drone( aka missle), it factor wasn't there. RT certainly had a lot to do with Garland,Joshua and Hoglander's turn around. I assume he's going to do the same with Kuz. However he needs time to adjust to new expectations. Yes last year was an anomaly. No way could he continue at that level. Put himself before the team with off season training not thinking this is wrong. No,don't want him traded or sitting. Rick will get him in the direction needed for the team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NHL97OneTimer Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 Well, this is a tough one. He's a difference maker when he's on. He used to bring a lot of fun to the ice and I'd love to see that back again. On the flipside, he's not displaying himself as a playoff performer and his cap space could be badly used to keep this team together next season. Guys like Joshua, DeSmith, Lafferty, and Zadorov are all guys you want for the playoffs.......in addition to the obvious re-signings of Hronkek and EP. They'll have some tough decisions to make. Mikheyev, Garland and Kuzmenko are all guys that we'll hear about with trade rumours. When Garland isn't producing, he's getting them on the PP and his line's punching above their weight. A lot will depend on Mikheyev......with his injury he's not jumping off the blocks here, but if he gets his top speed back and can be reliably defensively including the PK, suddenly Kuzmenko is looking like the odd man out. Not sure how they sign all of these guys back again, but I love that Kuzmenko picked this city to play in and to see his skill and love for the game back would be best case scenario. Hopefully he gets out of the funk and cements his spot with EP again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 8 hours ago, Ballisticsports said: I would rather have him play the right way RT has simply said play to the staples so your mates know where to be and for him not be concerned about scoring (that will come) We are leading the NHL in scoring right now without his scoring and tops in the league in standings Why not let Kuz figure if he wants to be a part of this or not, rather than let him play as he wants? What is wrong with having him be a better team player for a winning team? I'm not sure where this "poor team player" depiction of Kuzmenko is coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammaInTheTub Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 People chase their arguments to illogical ends here and it’s hilarious to watch from a healthy level headed distance 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 9 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said: See Steve Yzerman before and after Scotty Bowman took over. All it takes is commitment. Willingness to try. He doesn't have to hit everything that moves. Just use body position, active sticks, try to dodge players and avoid hits. It won't happen in one game. But if he keeps working at it, he will be just fine. Even just being aggressive getting after the puck. Look at Garland. He's bought in, and playing like a fiend. Garland's had that speed and hustle for most of his career, not sure where this "bought in" narrative comes from. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 (edited) So Kuz came in under a non-system, loose style of play, less structure, and had a lot of success as an individual within the collective on a really down season. That was fantastic. Now we have a team first mentality, structured play, within a system where everyone is more accountable and playing the right way to win long term. But Kuz went off the board in the summer to train his way, what was in his best interest despite the concerns of the team and the teams best interest. That sent a message to the team. Now the team is sending a message to Kuz. This is what being an NHL pro is about. That's why Milstein issued the statement that echoed this. Edited December 23, 2023 by Dr. Crossbar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life of a Canuck Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 9 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: Not talking about stats, I am talking about the two players. They are comparable in style and the fact they both came from Russia at a later stage in their careers. Neither one hits or forechecks. The coaches need to give Kuzmenko some leeway just like Jannik Hansen said. He's not some bang and crash guy like Joshua who simply has to play harder. They are asking Kuzmenko to literally change his entire game. Yeah…and they both like salami. I do not think these players (Artem Panarim and Kuzmenko) can be categorized in the same tiers based on this criteria. The fact is if Kuzmenko was producing offensively, even 75% of what Panarin is producing we would not be having this conversation about being physical or not. The point remains…IS HE A DIFFERENCE MAKER? The answer is: At this time NO. So if Kuzmenko is not scoring, he better be doing everything he can to back-check and battle his Wayne in anyway possible until he finds his game, or finds a way to contribute to show he wants to be here. Yes, he was not brought in for his defensive or physical attributes; he is here to be a scorer, but he better be showing he is trying to earn his ice time, because currently Hoglander, Garland, Joshua, and his other competition are finding ways to contribute to SUCCESS! Also, have Pods, and many others awaiting their opportunity to show us what they can do at the NHL level. I luv Kuzmenko. But he has let me, the fans, the coach and team down by his lack of best preparation in consideration of his contract, position, status and those expectation$. This is not a country club. We want a cup! I think Kuzmenko was/is not mentally prepared properly. This is also possibly part managements fault. I don’t know what the last seasons’ ending conversation was between coach and player to support to fulfil their goals and expectations…? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: Tocchet said his staples are "non-negotiable". So it DOES matter if you don't forecheck or backcheck. He benched Miller this year. If Kuzy had 20 goals this year, he would still be scratched from the lineup, if we are to take Tocchet at his word... I wonder what Tocchet would do if he was the coach of Edmonton. Would he be benching McDavid and Draisaitl for not backchecking? I love that attitude. Good for Tocchet and the boys. He probably does what it takes to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dr. Crossbar said: So Kuz came in under a non-system, loose style of play, less structure, and had a lot of success as an individual within the collective on a really down season. That was fantastic. Now we have a team first mentality, structured play, within a system where everyone is more accountable and playing the right way to win long term. But Kuz went off the board in the summer to train his way, what was in his best interest despite the concerns of the team and the teams best interest. That sent a message to the team. Now the team is sending a message to Kuz. This is what being an NHL pro is about. That's why Milstein issued the statement that echoed this. Kuzmenko scored 39 goals last year. 19 goals were scored in 45 games when Bruce Boudreau was the coach and 20 goals were scored in 36 games when Rick Tocchet was the coach. So he actually did better under Tocchet than he did under Boudreau. https://www.espn.com/nhl/player/gamelog/_/id/5077308/year/2023 Pretty sure that Tocchet implemented his defensive structure as soon as he was hired and they were not playing pond hockey when he was the coach. Edited December 23, 2023 by Elias Pettersson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said: Kuzmenko scored 39 goals last year. 19 goals were scored in 45 games when Bruce Boudreau was the coach and 20 goals were scored in 36 games when Rick Tocchet was the coach. So he actually did better under Tocchet than he did under Boudreau. https://www.espn.com/nhl/player/gamelog/_/id/5077308/year/2023 Pretty sure that Tocchet implemented his defensive structure as soon as he was hired and they were not playing pond hockey when he was the coach. True about the implementation but I mentioned that Kuz came in under a looser style of play. He was still playing more loose and less structured even though Tocchet took over. That exposed the issues in his game. Tocchet's time last season was also much more evaluation - ie: identifying passengers - while implementing more accountable hockey, which put Kuzmenko in Tocchet's doghouse last season as well. Tocc even said last season the goals were nice but he's got to play better defensively. Kuz was still scoring in a new system but that's why he started to fall out of favor with Tocchet despite the goals. It wasn't like Kuz was playing the type of game Tocchet wanted. That's how all of this started last season. This is a quote from Tocchet about Kuzmenko at the end of last season ... "‘For us to win we have to have players that play a team game. There is more to his game to be a complete player'' It's clear from this that Tocchet didn't see him playing a team game. Then add in Kuz's individual training in the offseason despite the team's concerns and you can see how this evolved further. They want him to be a team first guy. The link below highlights it from May 5 at the end of last season. https://www.canucksdaily.com/LATEST-Rick-Tocchet-explains-why-he-was-so-harsh-on-Andrei-Kuzmenko-233604 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeyman109 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 Sometimes good players dont fit the structure the coach wants the team to play with. I am a fan of Kuzy but if he wants to play on this team the coaching staff has let him know what he has to do to stay in the lineup. I highly doubt they expect Kuzmenko to become a power forward. Thats not his gig. we all know it. But effort on the back check getting in the shooting lanes on D are every players responsibility. Team success depends on it just look at the Coilers. As long as this team is in first overall or challenging for it i cannot criticize the coaching staff. They obviously know what they are doing. Throwing rocks from the outside doesnt make a lot of sense to me. I agree the depth is important however if we could get a decent D man back id trade Kuz if he is just going to sit i the press box. As much as I like the player , I like the team more 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 On 12/22/2023 at 2:16 PM, MidKnight Ego said: thanks for this... what this tells me is that kuzmenko is being lazy... he is often found down low or along the wall in the Ozone and he needs to be back checking hard... This.... is where the dog is buried. He gives up on plays, or hopes for a turn over so he has a head start, but he definitely doesn't race back as hard as others, if he loses possession.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 13 hours ago, bishopshodan said: JR says he is in top condition, worked really hard, just didnt focus on the right things for hockey. Does this change your view of Tocc's decision at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: Does this change your view of Tocc's decision at all? I think about the Kuz thing more than most players in the past because I dont see his faults as bad as Toc does apparently. As for JR, you could look at his statements about Kuz being a small shot at the coaches decision lately. Kuz is a pro athlete and was already in good enough shape to pot 39 goals last year, then according to JR he got in top condition but didnt do the right type of training in the off season...? but now we're well into this season, sitting him doesn't do much to keep/get him in 'game shape' as you need to play for that, and get some minutes. What am I trying to say? I mean Toc is good. I have to admit that, we are top in the league and the team plays with a good structure. However, I feel if we had Kuz working out his kinks in the line up, mid season with a cushion when we can take a few chances, we would probably be very close to where we are in points while also tuning one of our offensive weapons for the playoff drive. Horses need to run, not sit in the barn...and Kuz is a thoroughbred. Edited December 23, 2023 by bishopshodan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 4 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: I think about the Kuz thing more than most players in the past because I dont see his faults as bad as Toc does apparently. As for JR, you could look at his statements about Kuz being a small shot at the coaches decision lately. Kuz is a pro athlete and was already in good enough shape to pot 39 goals last year, then according to JR he got in top condition but didnt do the right type of training in the off season...? but now we're well into this season, sitting him doesn't do much to keep/get him in 'game shape' as you need to play for that, and get some minutes. What am I trying to say? I mean Toc is good. I have to admit that, we are top in the league and the team plays with a good structure. However, I feel if we had Kuz working out his kinks in the line up, mid season with a cushion when we can take a few chances, we would probably very close to where we are in points while also tuning one of offensive weapons for the playoff drive. Horses need to run, not sit in the barn...and Kuz is a thoroughbred. Kuz Missile is awesome. He will be back in the lineup tonight and score a hatty. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McMahon Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 On 12/22/2023 at 5:47 AM, tas said: I'll take the words of the player's agent and trust a coaching staff that has 6000+ games of experience as players to know what's best for the player over the opinion of loudmouth jannik hansen who is nothing more than a spectator like you or I at this point. Don’t you disrespect the honey badger like that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, Jim McMahon said: Don’t you disrespect the honey badger like that I dont listen to too much Nucks media but I thought people last year were praising Hansen's take's in a big way... We are in the middle of not being allowed to have any criticisms because we are playing so well. You will get shouted down. That must extend to one of our legendary darlings that is the mighty honey badger. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 13 minutes ago, Jim McMahon said: Don’t you disrespect the honey badger like that I loved jannik hansen the player. I was one of his most ardent supporters. jannik hansen the pseudo-analyst leaves a lot to be desired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mando27 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 No disrespect to Hansen but he's the one who is wrong here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said: True about the implementation but I mentioned that Kuz came in under a looser style of play. He was still playing more loose and less structured even though Tocchet took over. That exposed the issues in his game. Tocchet's time last season was also much more evaluation - ie: identifying passengers - while implementing more accountable hockey, which put Kuzmenko in Tocchet's doghouse last season as well. Tocc even said last season the goals were nice but he's got to play better defensively. Kuz was still scoring in a new system but that's why he started to fall out of favor with Tocchet despite the goals. It wasn't like Kuz was playing the type of game Tocchet wanted. That's how all of this started last season. This is a quote from Tocchet about Kuzmenko at the end of last season ... "‘For us to win we have to have players that play a team game. There is more to his game to be a complete player'' It's clear from this that Tocchet didn't see him playing a team game. Then add in Kuz's individual training in the offseason despite the team's concerns and you can see how this evolved further. They want him to be a team first guy. The link below highlights it from May 5 at the end of last season. https://www.canucksdaily.com/LATEST-Rick-Tocchet-explains-why-he-was-so-harsh-on-Andrei-Kuzmenko-233604 Yes this is all true and I agree. The point I was trying to make is that Kuzmenko was still able to score and score even more under Tocchet’s rigid defensive system. Some people are saying that Tocchet is the reason he can’t score anymore which isn’t true. At the end of the day, the reason Kuzmenko has only 6 goals is because he only has 41 shots. He needs to be able to shoot more in order to score more. Boeser has 177 shots this year. So of course he has way more goals. If Kuzmenko had 177 shots he’d also have over 20 goals. The rigid defensive system is affecting Kuzmenko’s ability to shoot the puck. And he’s overthinking everything which is compounding the problem. He is also passing when he should be shooting. Boeser was told to shoot more. And it’s worked. So Kuzmenko needs to do the same thing. As for his defensive play, not sure he’ll be able to do what Tocchet wants him to do so he will probably get traded at some point. Hopefully Kuzmenko proves me wrong. Edited December 23, 2023 by Elias Pettersson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 Just now, Elias Pettersson said: Yes this is all true and I agree. The point I was trying to make is that Kuzmenko was still able to score and score even more under Tocchet’s rigid defensive system. Some people are saying that Tocchet is the reason he can’t score anymore which isn’t true. At the end of the day, the reason Kuzmenko has only 6 goals is because he only has 41 shots. He needs to be able to shoot more in order to score more. Boeser has 177 shots this year. So of course he has way more goals. If Kuzmenko had 177 shots he’d also have over 20 goals. The rigid defensive system is affecting Kuzmenko’s ability to shoot the puck. And he’s overthinking everything which is compounding the problem. He is also passing when he should be shooting. Boeser was told to shoot more. And it’s worked. So Kuzmenko needs to do the same thing. Ad for his defensive play, not sure he’ll be able to do what Tocchet wants him to do so he will probably get traded at some point. Hopefully Kuzmenko proves me wrong. I see what you're saying. It's not just black or white. There's a bit more to it, including shots I agree. The thing is, the rest of the team is adapting, buying into the system, and having success. In this case, rigid is a good thing. Tocchet doesn't want him to be a liability, unpredictable, or a wild card while on the ice. Kuz was also having forechecking issues as well, causing others to be out of position. It's a ripple effect. My point is that he's got to put team first rather than being a lone wolf, and he needs to show that to the coach and organization. I don't think he was doing anything deliberately rebellious. It's just how he was coming off with more priority on his individual way of doing things rather than getting with the team program. Even last year they said they were committed to supporting him. So let's hope he succeeds. I'm rooting for him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 6 hours ago, bishopshodan said: I think about the Kuz thing more than most players in the past because I dont see his faults as bad as Toc does apparently. As for JR, you could look at his statements about Kuz being a small shot at the coaches decision lately. Kuz is a pro athlete and was already in good enough shape to pot 39 goals last year, then according to JR he got in top condition but didnt do the right type of training in the off season...? but now we're well into this season, sitting him doesn't do much to keep/get him in 'game shape' as you need to play for that, and get some minutes. What am I trying to say? I mean Toc is good. I have to admit that, we are top in the league and the team plays with a good structure. However, I feel if we had Kuz working out his kinks in the line up, mid season with a cushion when we can take a few chances, we would probably be very close to where we are in points while also tuning one of our offensive weapons for the playoff drive. Horses need to run, not sit in the barn...and Kuz is a thoroughbred. He's played 29 games. It's not like he's been sitting around for weeks on end. In your analogy maybe he needs to be broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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