[PGT] San Jose Sharks at Vancouver Canucks // December 23, 2023

[IBatch]

57 minutes ago, MidKnight Ego said:

12M is 13.7% and would be the 4th highest paid player right now... and 3rd highest RFA signing in the history of the game considering CH%

and would be the 9th highest paid Player in terms of CH% for forwards in the history of the game... 9 cups come from those 9 players but only 1 came after they signed these contracts from Malkin...

 

McDavid, Connor

100.0%

EDM

Jul. 5, 2017

21

8

2018-26

Standard

RFA

UFA

C

Left

127

148

16.67%

$12,500,000

$12,500,000

Results

PLAYER	% MATCH	SIGNING TEAM	SIGNING DATE	SIGNING AGE	LENGTH	YEARS	TYPE	SIGNED AS	ARB. ELIG	ARB. REQ	EXPIRY	POS	HANDED	GP	P	C.H.%	CAP HIT	AAV
Matthews, Auston	84.0%	TOR	Aug. 23, 2023	26	4	2024-28	Standard	UFA			UFA	C	Left	481	542	15.87%	$13,250,000	$13,250,000
MacKinnon, Nathan	72.1%	COL	Sep. 20, 2022	27	8	2023-31	Standard	UFA			UFA	C	Right	638	648	15.27%	$12,600,000	$12,600,000
Kane, Patrick	71.0%	CHI	Jul. 9, 2014	26	8	2015-23	Standard	UFA			UFA	RW	Left	515	493	15.22%	$10,500,000	$10,500,000
Toews, Jonathan	71.0%	CHI	Jul. 9, 2014	26	8	2015-23	Standard	UFA			UFA	C	Left	484	440	15.22%	$10,500,000	$10,500,000
Malkin, Evgeni	62.2%	PIT	Jul. 1, 2013	27	8	2014-22	Standard	UFA			UFA	C	Left	458	560	14.77%	$9,500,000	$9,500,000
Matthews, Auston	59.5%	TOR	Feb. 5, 2019	21	5	2019-24	Standard	RFA			UFA	C	Left	182	178	14.64%	$11,640,250	$11,640,250
Panarin, Artemi	52.4%	NYR	Jul. 1, 2019	27	7	2019-26	Standard	UFA			UFA	LW	Right	322	320	14.29%	$11,642,857	$11,642,857
Kopitar, Anze	46.8%	LAK	Jan. 16, 2016	28	8	2016-24	Standard	UFA			UFA	C	Left	730	653	14.01%	$10,000,000	$10,000,000
Tavares, John	43.4%	TOR	Jul. 1, 2018	27	7	2018-25	Standard	UFA			UFA	C, LW	Left	669	621	13.84%	$11,000,000	$11,000,000

Can't read that table, but get the gist.   Currently there are several active players that have signed for around 14% of the cap.  

 

Of them, only two you could consider a discount.   Crosby and McDavid.   They for sure could have asked for the max (20%), and got it, they signed for 17.3% on a medium deal (Crosby) and 16.67% on a full term deal (McDavid).    Crosby actually won  all 3 of his cups after his ELC.    Also won all the hardware as a 19 year old.    McDavid and Crosby's second deals were virtually identical when term was factored in, and at the time they both signed, were offered the max but didn't take it.    Leaving money on the table.    Crosby did it again his last deal, as a UFA, took only 14.5%!!  That's a team player right there.   It's also a big reason why, they won two more cups. 

 

Obviously EP isn't generational.   And don't use superstar loosely.   13.6%  and up is reserved for those guys.  So far we've had two make that criteria.  Naslund (who eventually failed to maintain his pace, but he was a 3 time in a row first team all-star, almost an Art Ross and Hart winner too) and Luongo (you won't find a better goalie for the 8 years he was with us, Broduer tailed off and Lundkqvist wasn't around at the start).   

 

I still maintain, that EP is in a small tier of guys, below the top tier.    Is Miller the better center?   People are pointing out EP gets the other teams best defensive lines, but fail to mention Millers line gets the best of the best or best on best (the McDavids, Mckinnon's etc).    Miller has close to 50 more points over the same period as a Canuck, and a higher PPG etc ... So should we have paid Miller 13.5-14% too?    

 

EPs hot start and his cooling down don't matter.  All he says he wants to do is win.  So let's see if he leaves some food on the table.    Allvin will sign him.   He won't find any contenders clearing cap space for him as a UFA, but yes a lot of teams would love to add him as well. 

 

10.5 is bang on IMO.   Said it at the start of all this on other threads several times, going back over a year ago.   Unless he explodes and ends up top five in scoring, with 110-120 points,  14% plus seems high.     10.5 leaves some for the others, and still would become, the third highest cap percentage we've ever had.    We should be thinking Barkov and MT, and adding his 5% raise (the cap going up, should be spread around not all going to one player).   That's where the 500k comes from.   Yes we are high taxes, so 11-11.25 is reasonable considering that.    Miller didn't consider that.   And hope EP does too, if he signs for 10.5, our window opens wider, and it also sets an example for QHs and Demko when they are up.   Team first. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by IBatch

[PeteyBOI]

15 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Some good points in this thread.   Bottom line is this core is probably  done for if we can't sign EP to a reasonable contract, or trade him for a reasonable return.  

 

Right now, this season and next season, we could also be witnessing this cores peak.   We can't expect Miller to keep going at his pace for more than maybe a couple seasons, this one and next one.   He's already been going at his "pace" since he was Brocks current age.  

 

EP should get better.   Especially if we can find him a winger, and on those who say he's not getting quality, 10.5 for your wingers isn't chump change (when it's Kuzmennko and Mikheyev),  Crosby played with so much less until Guentzal got paid.    And before Guentzal.    That's kind of what happens when you ask for, and get 13.5-14% of the cap.    EP will join Luongo and Naslund (who was the leagues top winger, and arguably the top 1-3 player at the time of his 13.6% deal), as the only guys to get that sort of piece of the pie.     11.88-12.32 if the caps at 88 next season (could be 87.5).   That's too much IMO, unless it's an 8 year deal, and it will affect our depth somewhere.  

 

Personally think that  what we see is what we get, and we shouldn't be paying for potential.   Can't afford a Huberdeau debacle, but a trade isn't out of the question either.   We also shouldn't be offering 14% of the cap, for anyone but an actual super-star...as in the top tier, the Crosby, McDavid, Ovi's.   Like Luongo was (best goalie in the league for a 7-8 year period, or second fiddle to Broduer), or Naslund (3 times in a row first team all-star..only Canuck to ever do that), and on Naslund he petered out and the team had to wait for his contract to be over.    

 

What we see is tough to gauge.  If we do the sample size over Millers time with us, Miller is ahead by a lot of points.   Does that make Miller a top five center too?   

 

Zibenejad, was a great comp for Miller.   Barkov is a the best (not great either, but ok anyways.  Barkov is the front runner for the Selke this year again.   EPs game isn't there yet)  comp for EP.    He's NOT a superstar by pure definition.

 

 There can only be one or two, in the league, at any given time.   McDavid/Mckinnon and maybe Draisatl/Crosby/Mathews have been filling that role for centers, the past couple 15 years or so.     There is a tier after that, and so far, that's where EP is.    All the guys named above, won Hardware and were named first or second team all-stars multiple all did it by age 19-24.   The oldest was Draisatl.   McKinnon was 22.    What we see is what we get.   A top 5-7 overall center.   Sure he could one day, because of injuries, and age (Crosby dropping out), get into the top five.   But others are gunning for that spot too, Jack Hughes, Beddard etc.     Don't think we should be calling anyone names or be consider haters for dissecting where his next deal should come in at.   I'm not convinced he's a perrenial top 1-3 center, so 14% is out of line.   Let alone a top 3 forward.    That's where folks saying 12 is too much, is coming from.   It truly is too much.   He'd need to score 110-115 a year like those guys, just to make PAR.    Right now, all he needs to do is score 70 to make par.    

 

What he is though, is part of a small group at a tier below.   So over 10 is fair.   Barkov, Mathew T, are a couple recent examples.   

 

Add his share of the 5% cap raise to 10, that's 10.5.    Those deals were signed in flat cap.   Where it gets muddy is, will he ask for a premium because of taxes.  Miller sure didn't, so hope he doesn't either.     10.5 doesn't put a ridiculous amount of pressure on EP either, and it also is where he's playing to the past 1.5 seasons.    The above guys, have repeatedly produced.    

I really like Barkov they are very similair players... barkov signed his at 26 and got 12.27% which is about 10.75M but still barkov was a much better player than EP when he signed his contract was a PPG player for 5 seasons but also like you said one the selke and also had 2 elite seasons compared to only 1 for EP... you do have to consider that scoring has gone up due to how the PP has changed earlier EN goals... and EP is very lucky to have Hughes and Miller on his team, this is the Context, Barkov is the best player on the Panthers... Is EP the best player on the canucks? we do have to look at colorado... Mackinnon is no doubt the best player on their team then Makar... but Makar signed for 9.5m How much better is EP then Makar?

[Canuckleheads Fan]

33 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I asked you a question - how is it working for Oilers and Leafs? And @MidKnight Ego brought two more great example of Chicago and Minnesota. You are deflecting.

 

If your star is only thinking about his own pocket and not thinking about how his demand will affect the entire team - who cares about that star? $10 million/season for 8 years is shitload of money and if someone is squeezing the team for extra $1.5 mil/season, which could be a difference between being able or not to bring another piece of puzzle - he is not a team player. You can’t win with such players.

 

if anything - not paying Petey the absolute maximum will show the rest of the players that the management is thinking about everyone, not just one superstar. Your example of Calgary is not valid - both Tkachuk and Gudreau left not because of money (Calgary offered them not less than what they ended up getting elsewhere).

 

And seeing Alvin operate - I’m sure that if the deal can’t be done, he’ll trade Petey for a king’s ransom.

Nathan MacKinnon $12.6 over 8 years. He's the benchmark for Petey. Petey is three years younger, MacKnnon is in his prime yet they put up similar numbers. Chicago and Minni are red herrings, salary structure has changed a lot since then. I explained Edmonton and Toronto's problems in the edit to my last post. This year TO is paying three guys $33M including $11M to their 2C. Edmonton is paying Nurse, a guy who is not even the 1D on his own team $9M. If you look at Colorado, they pay their stars, and surround them with bargain contracts, that's the reality of today's NHL. Petey will get $11 - $12.5 either here or a place like Vegas. If he leaves how do you replace him? With Suter? Blueger? There is nobody in the system even close. Any top 10 center on the FA market will demand at least $11M, and not be as good as Petey. Nobody is going to send you a 1C in trade. Contracts signed before MacKinnon's don't count, because with every big money contract the bar is raised. Petey isn't going to accept Eichel money from a contract he signed three years ago.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Canuckleheads Fan

[PeteyBOI]

2 minutes ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Nathan MacKinnon $12.6 over 8 years. He's the benchmark for Petey. Petey is three years younger, MacKnnon is in his prime yet they put up similar numbers. Chicago and Minni are red herrings, salary structure has changed a lot since then. I explained Edmonton and Toronto's problems in the edit to my last post. This year TO is paying three guys $33M including $11M to their 2C. Edmonton is paying Nurse, a guy who is not even the 1D on his own team $9M. If you look at Colorado, they pay their stars, and surround them with bargain contracts, that's the reality of today's NHL. Petey will get $11 - $12.5 either here or a place like Vegas. If he leaves how do you replace him? With Suter? Blueger? There is nobody in the system even close. Any top 10 center on the FA market will demand at least $11M, and not be as good as Petey. Nobody is going to send you a 1C in trade. Contracts signed before MacKinnon's don't count, because with every big money contract the bar is raised. Petey isn't going to accept Eichel money from a contract he signed three years ago.

they put up similar numbers? also... being younger means he should TAKE LESS

Edited December 27, 2023 by MidKnight Ego

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Nathan MacKinnon $12.6 over 8 years. He's the benchmark for Petey. Petey is three years younger, MacKnnon is in his prime yet they put up similar numbers. Chicago and Minni are red herrings, salary structure has changed a lot since then. I explained Edmonton and Toronto's problems in the edit to my last post. This year TO is paying three guys $33M including $11M to their 2C. Edmonton is paying Nurse, a guy who is not even the 1D on his own team $9M. If you look at Colorado, they pay their stars, and surround them with bargain contracts, that's the reality of today's NHL. Petey will get $11 - $12.5 either here or a place like Vegas. If he leaves how do you replace him? With Suter? Blueger? There is nobody in the system even close. Any top 10 center on the FA market will demand at least $11M, and not be as good as Petey. Nobody is going to send you a 1C in trade. Contracts signed before MacKinnon's don't count, because with every big money contract the bar is raised. Petey isn't going to accept Eichel money from a contract he signed three years ago.

 

No, he is not, for one simple reason - McKinnon won a cup before he signed the contract. And look what’s happening with the Avs now, after McKinnon’s and Makar’s contracts.

 

And where will Vegas find these 12.5 mil? Will the magically stop paying Eichel and the others? Real life is not EA, you know?

[Canuckleheads Fan]

27 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

No, he is not, for one simple reason - McKinnon won a cup before he signed the contract. And look what’s happening with the Avs now, after McKinnon’s and Makar’s contracts.

 

And where will Vegas find these 12.5 mil? Will the magically stop paying Eichel and the others? Real life is not EA, you know?

Not Petey's fault that Benning couldn't build a cup winner here. Petey did his part, point per game player. Also, after Petey said that he wouldn't negotiate during the season, a Vegas writer did the math and figured they could sign Petey. It starts with Marchessalt and Martinez coming off the books this year, that's $10.5 right there.

 

And what you're seeing In Denver is the new normal in the NHL. You pay your stars, and fill in around them with ELC and bargain contracts. That's Vegas. That's CO, TO, etc. It will all come down to how well you draft and develop talent, how well you scout NCAA free agents and find undervalued guys like Joshua, Bluegar, Suter, and Lafferty.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Canuckleheads Fan

[Canuckleheads Fan]

36 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Can't read that table, but get the gist.   Currently there are several active players that have signed for around 14% of the cap.  

 

Of them, only two you could consider a discount.   Crosby and McDavid.   They for sure could have asked for the max (20%), and got it, they signed for 17.3% on a medium deal (Crosby) and 16.67% on a full term deal (McDavid).    Crosby actually won  all 3 of his cups after his ELC.    Also won all the hardware as a 19 year old.    McDavid and Crosby's second deals were virtually identical when term was factored in, and at the time they both signed, were offered the max but didn't take it.    Leaving money on the table.    Crosby did it again his last deal, as a UFA, took only 14.5%!!  That's a team player right there.   It's also a big reason why, they won two more cups. 

 

Obviously EP isn't generational.   And don't use superstar loosely.   13.6%  and up is reserved for those guys.  So far we've had two make that criteria.  Naslund (who eventually failed to maintain his pace, but he was a 3 time in a row first team all-star, almost an Art Ross and Hart winner too) and Luongo (you won't find a better goalie for the 8 years he was with us, Broduer tailed off and Lundkqvist wasn't around at the start).   

 

I still maintain, that EP is in a small tier of guys, below the top tier.    Is Miller the better center?   People are pointing out EP gets the other teams best defensive lines, but fail to mention Millers line gets the best of the best or best on best (the McDavids, Mckinnon's etc).    Miller has close to 50 more points over the same period as a Canuck, and a higher PPG etc ... So should we have paid Miller 13.5-14% too?    

 

EPs hot start and his cooling down don't matter.  All he says he wants to do is win.  So let's see if he leaves some food on the table.    Allvin will sign him.   He won't find any contenders clearing cap space for him as a UFA, but yes a lot of teams would love to add him as well. 

 

10.5 is bang on IMO.   Said it at the start of all this on other threads several times, going back over a year ago.   Unless he explodes and ends up top five in scoring, with 110-120 points,  14% plus seems high.     10.5 leaves some for the others, and still would become, the third highest cap percentage we've ever had.    We should be thinking Barkov and MT, and adding his 5% raise (the cap going up, should be spread around not all going to one player).   That's where the 500k comes from.   Yes we are high taxes, so 11-11.25 is reasonable considering that.    Miller didn't consider that.   And hope EP does too, if he signs for 10.5, our window opens wider, and it also sets an example for QHs and Demko when they are up.   Team first. 

So what you're saying is no raise? He's making that much this year. I doubt he signs for what he's making now. Not when the next five years are going to be his best.

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

And without Petey, the Miller line gets the other team's shut down line and the third line no longer gets to feast on bottom six players. The key to maintaining excellence, as Tampa has done is great amateur and pro scouting. Drafting well and developing young talent to sprinkle throughout the lineup, and spotting and acquiring underused players like DeSmith and Lafferty, and signing undrafted NCAA players all who can play bottom pairing and bottom six minutes after a year or two in the A. The current management team seems to be doing a fine job of that.

And with EP, at home anyways, Tochett has tasked Millers line to play the best on best mostly since day one.    

 

It's working.    Kuzmennko was signed with the idea of playing with EP.   That's  been a distraction for sure.   10 million for your wingers, is definitely suitable for EP.   Or Miller, or whomever. 

 

So far this year, the teams had their best start in club history, and pacing the 2011 team to a degree.   That team had a slower start, and picked it up.    And was more of a veteran team as well.   This one has a couple years yet before getting to that point.    

 

Playoffs are the goal.   Will be a good litmus test not only for EP, but the entire team.   And should help Allvin decide what's best as well.    Nobody wants to see EP traded.    It's a valid concern however, paying too much for potential at this point.   

[PeteyBOI]

13 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

No, he is not, for one simple reason - McKinnon won a cup before he signed the contract. And look what’s happening with the Avs now, after McKinnon’s and Makar’s contracts.

 

And where will Vegas find these 12.5 mil? Will the magically stop paying Eichel and the others? Real life is not EA, you know?

I dont think it matters...EP's contract is arbitration eligible... here is what is and isnt allowed to be discussed

 

The evidence that is allowed to be presented during these hearings included a player's performance/statistics, injury history, length of service, leadership qualities and contribution to the team's results. 

Teams/players cannot use other players' salaries or the state of the team's cap situation during these discussions. (I believe AAV and CH% is allowed)

 

Considering that... we have only been to the playoffs once by default during his stay this is a considerable knock... he's pretty healthy so that shouldnt be a knock. Length of service may be a small knock, a few percentage points. Leadership qualities well considering ALL the players above 14% are the 'C' captains this is a small knock, a few percentage points for being a leader by example. and for performance he is a top 20 player in the total of the last 3 seasons but trending up to a top 10... so likely arbitration would be on our side... we can make one more run at it and try to re-sign him before trade deadline or just trade him straight away...

 

if he want 14% he doesnt want a cup...

 

[PeteyBOI]

16 minutes ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Not Petey's fault that Benning couldn't build a cup winner here. Petey did his part, point per game player. Also, after Petey said that he wouldn't negotiate during the season, a Vegas writer did the math and figured they could sign Petey. It starts with Marchessalt and Martinez coming off the books this year, that's $10.5 right there.

 

And what you're seeing In Denver is the new normal in the NHL. You pay your stars, and fill in around them with ELC and bargain contracts. That's Vegas. That's CO, TO, etc. It will all come down to how well you draft and develop talent, how well you scout NCAA free agents and find undervalued guys like Joshua, Bluegar, Suter, and Lafferty.

thats not true... People pay there stars who have won a cup...

[Canuckleheads Fan]

14 minutes ago, MidKnight Ego said:

thats not true... People pay there stars who have won a cup...

McDavid? Eichel in Buffalo? The guys in TO. Seems they're all getting paid and no cups at the time of contract. If you only paid your stars when they won a cup, most guys wold never get a payday. Just read an article online, Petey is the top rated upcoming RFA, he will get paid somewhere.

[Canuckleheads Fan]

21 minutes ago, IBatch said:

And with EP, at home anyways, Tochett has tasked Millers line to play the best on best mostly since day one.    

 

It's working.    Kuzmennko was signed with the idea of playing with EP.   That's  been a distraction for sure.   10 million for your wingers, is definitely suitable for EP.   Or Miller, or whomever. 

 

So far this year, the teams had their best start in club history, and pacing the 2011 team to a degree.   That team had a slower start, and picked it up.    And was more of a veteran team as well.   This one has a couple years yet before getting to that point.    

 

Playoffs are the goal.   Will be a good litmus test not only for EP, but the entire team.   And should help Allvin decide what's best as well.    Nobody wants to see EP traded.    It's a valid concern however, paying too much for potential at this point.   

Most top offensive lines are not considered the shutdown unit, many are not good defensively, which is how Miller's line is succeeding on the counterattack. As Huberdough proves money is no guarantee of success, just because Petey's wingers are making $10M doesn't make them good. I think they are overpaying for Mik. We will see if Kuzy can right he ship in the second half. If so, Petey should get back to his torrid early season pace.

[RomanPer]

46 minutes ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Not Petey's fault that Benning couldn't build a cup winner here. Petey did his part, point per game player. Also, after Petey said that he wouldn't negotiate during the season, a Vegas writer did the math and figured they could sign Petey. It starts with Marchessalt and Martinez coming off the books this year, that's $10.5 right there.

 

And what you're seeing In Denver is the new normal in the NHL. You pay your stars, and fill in around them with ELC and bargain contracts. That's Vegas. That's CO, TO, etc. It will all come down to how well you draft and develop talent, how well you scout NCAA free agents and find undervalued guys like Joshua, Bluegar, Suter, and Lafferty.

 

All i can is lol. If Vegas writer did the math, than it must be true. It’s just like internet - if it’s written there, it must be true…

[Canuckleheads Fan]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

 

All i can is lol. If Vegas writer did the math, than it must be true. It’s just like internet - if it’s written there, it must be true…

Well, as I mentioned two expiring contracts add up to $10.5M. So if the wanted to, they are mostly there.

[IBatch]

26 minutes ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Most top offensive lines are not considered the shutdown unit, many are not good defensively, which is how Miller's line is succeeding on the counterattack. As Huberdough proves money is no guarantee of success, just because Petey's wingers are making $10M doesn't make them good. I think they are overpaying for Mik. We will see if Kuzy can right he ship in the second half. If so, Petey should get back to his torrid early season pace.

Miller's line is succeeding because they are following Tochetts script, hard on the forecheck, and making the best of their opportunities when they come.   They are noticeably doing something even when they don't add to the scoreboard.  Funny how Brock goes from an anchor to a value deal too.  

 

Huberdough has nothing to do with this other than I suppose a warning to the league and teams to keep things real.   Which is exactly what some of us, are trying to point out.  

 

EPs put himself in the double digits, that means he should be capable of driving any line.    Which he is for the most part the past 1.5 years.    What we see is what we most likely get at this point.   Yes there should be a couple banner years in his next deal, but it's not a certainty either.    

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

So what you're saying is no raise? He's making that much this year. I doubt he signs for what he's making now. Not when the next five years are going to be his best.

How is 10.5, or 10.75-11.25 (read my posts maybe), not a raise?  It's a huge raise.   12 plus is not a great deal for the team, which quite a few informed posters, have brought up.   This is going from starting cap hit.   With the expectation it will go up around 5%.     14% plus usually is reserved for superstar's only.   Or if that word is too loose (which it for sure is but that's a different debate) generational talent.    EPs not a superstar as in a top 3 perrenial center (yet anyways, but if it appeases people, yes he's a superstar in the way folks throw that word around today, there are 15-20 superstar forwards i suppose , not 1-3 like the word was intended when coined).   

 

Of course we all want him to stay.  And hope his cap hit, doesn't become a problem.   Jesus  - brought this up already, look at our rep as fans and the media for how we tear into our star players, EPs getting some flak at 7.35 the past six weeks.    So what's going to happen if he's paid to score 110-120 points, be in the top five in scoring etc and he's instead "only"  scoring say 89? 

Edited December 27, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Nathan MacKinnon $12.6 over 8 years. He's the benchmark for Petey. Petey is three years younger, MacKnnon is in his prime yet they put up similar numbers. Chicago and Minni are red herrings, salary structure has changed a lot since then. I explained Edmonton and Toronto's problems in the edit to my last post. This year TO is paying three guys $33M including $11M to their 2C. Edmonton is paying Nurse, a guy who is not even the 1D on his own team $9M. If you look at Colorado, they pay their stars, and surround them with bargain contracts, that's the reality of today's NHL. Petey will get $11 - $12.5 either here or a place like Vegas. If he leaves how do you replace him? With Suter? Blueger? There is nobody in the system even close. Any top 10 center on the FA market will demand at least $11M, and not be as good as Petey. Nobody is going to send you a 1C in trade. Contracts signed before MacKinnon's don't count, because with every big money contract the bar is raised. Petey isn't going to accept Eichel money from a contract he signed three years ago.

So you're saying an RFA is going to tie the league for highest paid player?   Good grief.  McKinnon versus McDavid, and prior to that versus an aging Crosby was a thing for awhile.   Won a cup.   Was underpaid (EP hasn't been underpaid, but yes he's done more than his bridge so is getting a raise).    McKinnon has been a Hart finalist 3 times, and was second at age 22.   So.   Not really comparing apples with apples - especially when McKinnon already won a cup, was underpaid during those years and also was a UFA!    Why in the world, do you think, EPs going to get the biggest contract to date?   And what does Eichel have to do with anything.    Other than he's won a cup.     You can discard all the bad deals, and the best deals and look at the midline.    Do you want EP so badly you'd give him a blank cheque?    Seems like it.   I'm sorry man, he's not a Bure.   As in just add two plugs and there is your line.   And he'd go out and score 50-60 goals, with much bigger guys trying to murder him, and against half a dozen HHOF goalies to boot.   He's a center, that has had hot streaks and cold one's.   And he's not a Barkov either, as in a 225lb block who can keep the puck and get the puck.   He's an elite two-way center.   And he's going to cost us a lot.   Why does Garland look like he's turning into St. Loius lite?   You can call that the core effect.   And that's where I see the most value with EP.   He's doing his job.   Sakic-lite.    Don't see any reason to pay him 14.5 plus percent of the cap.   Also agree with Allvin.   There isn't a rush either.   Would like to see him in action in the playoffs more then a bubble thing. 

 

The only way i'd be comfortable, with a 14 plus cap hit, is if he can run the table the rest of the year, and keep it up for at least two rounds.   You know, like Crosby and McKinnon have done quite a bit.    Think 110-120 points.   And 15-20 points over a couple series.     QHs, is the one guy on the team right now, that's showing he deserves that sort of cap hit.   What do you think would happen to the team, if we paid two guys close to 30% of the cap hit anyways?  99-101 points these days, isn't the high bar.   What did McDavid do again last year?   EP would need to score 130 points to match that, at 14% cap hit.     Draisatl with mostly his own line, also is a perennial 100 plus point guy.  Hart, Pearson winner too.    We all want EP to be that guy.   And yes he just turned 25 so there is a chance he can do it as well.   We shouldn't be paying guys based on chances at this phase.  12.5%, is a lot more then the Sedins ever got.    No single player, should be held in higher regard than the team.   Right now, this is QHs team.   And EP is a huge part.   I'm hoping for an 8 year deal but only if it's not going to screw us over the next 3-4 years.   Horvat syndrome is what I think you have a bit when it comes to EP.   As in whatever he wants just promote the heck out of it.    Horvat scored some goals.  Did his job.   But also didn't really sacrifice anything.    Only fight I remember was when someone hit him hard and he retaliated.   EPs his own man.   And we need him.    But also see some Kovalev in him.   At least he's got the right idea in saying he won't sign or talk about his deal.    That void creates a pretty big vaccuum.   Vegas has no state taxes.  Yes they could sign him for 10, and we'd have to match around 11.5 to match his take home.   Taxes are an issue. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by IBatch

[iinatcc]

On 12/25/2023 at 4:38 PM, -dlc- said:

Not really (re "more important"). It seems to me that it's a bit of a prediction of sorts and I challenge the "more accurate" statement.

 

I like facts...fact is, every time you win a game you get two points and the teams with the most points get in. 

 

I think it's something people who like (and mostly get paid) to talk hockey have zeroed in on as "something". To keep them talking. 

 

No one knows until the season plays out and, until such a time, the teams that gather the most points are ahead. Even if other teams are playing catching with GIH. They could lose all of them. Win all of them. 

 

We agree to disagree on which is more important since I do agree point percentage is also very theoritical. 

 

However my bigger point is people and the media downplaying the Canucks success or looking for something to be negative about.

 

Even Drance, who a lot of people seem dislike here, hold points percentage more weight but he sees no difference big picture since Canucks are still the top in the West if you count points of points percentage.

[Tusk]

7 hours ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

You have to pay your stars or they leave at free agency, and then you're the Calgary Flames. Toronto's problem is they are currently playing three guys $11M each. The problem with Edmonton is they are playing Nurse over $9M, a player worth probably no more than $5M. What's you solution? Let Petey walk after next year? That would be a massive setback for the team. MacKinnon is the benchmark for Petey, they put up comparable stats in spite of Petey being three years younger. MacKnnon makes $12.6M. Colorado is exactly what I'm talking about, they pay their stars, and surround them with have a bunch of guys on bargain contracts. If the Canucks can continue their winning ways, players will take less to stay, or to come as FAs for the chance to win a cup. 

Ok.

What most of us fans think, is that JT Miller is the same value to the team as Petterson. Look a the numbers or stats or whaterver. You say the other teams put thier shutdown lines on Petey.

But Miller is playing the top lines as shutdown against the other teams, but still putting up the points. Look at Miller's contract, and tell me how this would not work for Petey!

CURRENT CONTRACT

STANDARD CONTRACT (EXTENSION)

COMPARE THIS CONTRACT

SIGNED BY: Patrik Allvin

 

LENGTH: 7 years

VALUE: $56,000,000

EXPIRY STATUS: UFA

CAP % : 9.70

SIGNING TEAM: Vancouver Canucks

SIGNING DATE: Sep. 2, 2022

SOURCE: CapFriendly

J.T. Miller signed a 7 year, $56,000,000 contract with the Vancouver Canucks on Sep. 2, 2022. The contract has a cap hit of $8,000,000.

SEASON	CLAUSE	CAP HIT	AAV	P. BONUSES	S. BONUSES	BASE SALARY	TOTAL SALARY	MINORS SAL
TOTAL		$56,000,000	$56,000,000	$0	$24,000,000	$32,000,000	$56,000,000	$56,000,000
2023-24	NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$8,500,000	$1,000,000	$9,500,000	$9,500,000
2024-25	NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$5,000,000	$4,000,000	$9,000,000	$9,000,000
2025-26	NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$5,000,000	$4,000,000	$9,000,000	$9,000,000
2026-27	NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$0	$7,000,000	$7,000,000	$7,000,000
2027-28	M-NTC, NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$3,000,000	$4,500,000	$7,500,000	$7,500,000
2028-29	M-NTC, NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$2,500,000	$4,500,000	$7,000,000	$7,000,000
2029-30	M-NTC, NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$0	$7,000,000	$7,000,000	$7,000,000

CLAUSE DETAILS: Starting July 1, 2027 the player submits a 15 team no trade list.

CLAUSE SOURCE: CapFriendly

[NewbieCanuckFan]

14 minutes ago, Tusk said:

Ok.

What most of us fans think, is that JT Miller is the same value to the team as Petterson. Look a the numbers or stats or whaterver. You say the other teams put thier shutdown lines on Petey.

But Miller is playing the top lines as shutdown against the other teams, but still putting up the points. Look at Miller's contract, and tell me how this would not work for Petey!

CURRENT CONTRACT

STANDARD CONTRACT (EXTENSION)

COMPARE THIS CONTRACT

SIGNED BY: Patrik Allvin

 

LENGTH: 7 years

VALUE: $56,000,000

EXPIRY STATUS: UFA

CAP % : 9.70

SIGNING TEAM: Vancouver Canucks

SIGNING DATE: Sep. 2, 2022

SOURCE: CapFriendly

J.T. Miller signed a 7 year, $56,000,000 contract with the Vancouver Canucks on Sep. 2, 2022. The contract has a cap hit of $8,000,000.

SEASON	CLAUSE	CAP HIT	AAV	P. BONUSES	S. BONUSES	BASE SALARY	TOTAL SALARY	MINORS SAL
TOTAL		$56,000,000	$56,000,000	$0	$24,000,000	$32,000,000	$56,000,000	$56,000,000
2023-24	NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$8,500,000	$1,000,000	$9,500,000	$9,500,000
2024-25	NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$5,000,000	$4,000,000	$9,000,000	$9,000,000
2025-26	NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$5,000,000	$4,000,000	$9,000,000	$9,000,000
2026-27	NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$0	$7,000,000	$7,000,000	$7,000,000
2027-28	M-NTC, NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$3,000,000	$4,500,000	$7,500,000	$7,500,000
2028-29	M-NTC, NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$2,500,000	$4,500,000	$7,000,000	$7,000,000
2029-30	M-NTC, NMC	$8,000,000	$8,000,000	$0	$0	$7,000,000	$7,000,000	$7,000,000

CLAUSE DETAILS: Starting July 1, 2027 the player submits a 15 team no trade list.

CLAUSE SOURCE: CapFriendly

Thing is, JT Miller could probably get alot more today given to what kind of player he's turned into (eg., more than a guy that puts up points)

[Tusk]

5 hours ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Well, as I mentioned two expiring contracts add up to $10.5M. So if the wanted to, they are mostly there.

You think we couldnt make big moves with EP expiring CAP and trade value?? Dont Dare Alvin.... Most of the expiring cap we can re-sign at the same or lower level. Petey is the only one expecting more. Well, Heronik too I guess.

[Tusk]

3 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Thing is, JT Miller could probably get alot more today given to what kind of player he's turned into (eg., more than a guy that puts up points)

He is a Vancouver Canuck. Enough said. Get on board Petey.

[Tusk]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

How is 10.5, or 10.75-11.25 (read my posts maybe), not a raise?  It's a huge raise.   12 plus is not a great deal for the team, which quite a few informed posters, have brought up.   This is going from starting cap hit.   With the expectation it will go up around 5%.     14% plus usually is reserved for superstar's only.   Or if that word is too loose (which it for sure is but that's a different debate) generational talent.    EPs not a superstar as in a top 3 perrenial center (yet anyways, but if it appeases people, yes he's a superstar in the way folks throw that word around today, there are 15-20 superstar forwards i suppose , not 1-3 like the word was intended when coined).   

 

Of course we all want him to stay.  And hope his cap hit, doesn't become a problem.   Jesus  - brought this up already, look at our rep as fans and the media for how we tear into our star players, EPs getting some flak at 7.35 the past six weeks.    So what's going to happen if he's paid to score 110-120 points, be in the top five in scoring etc and he's instead "only"  scoring say 89? 

Like Huberdough, Loui Errikson, Luongo.... If the contract is crazy love turns to hate very easy. And imagine the pressure. I think Petterson getting a deal out of the way would help his game the most. He is starting to get the criticism already.

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Thing is, JT Miller could probably get alot more today given to what kind of player he's turned into (eg., more than a guy that puts up points)

I'd argue he already proved it with a 99 point season, his durability, and that all the stats back up he's our best forward since he came in minus a few months of EP here and there.   Last year EP was the man, this year he's back to mayne being the man?   Yet Miller did it with two different coaches in the same year.   I don't like comparing players on our own team (the Miller versus Horvat stuff was total BS).    All Millers done, since he's arrived, is created a top line.   And of course EP's not worth 50% more.   Or 30% more.  But he's going to get it regardless. 

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, Tusk said:

Like Huberdough, Loui Errikson, Luongo.... If the contract is crazy love turns to hate very easy. And imagine the pressure. I think Petterson getting a deal out of the way would help his game the most. He is starting to get the criticism already.

I don't want to see EP get crushed by the fanbase and the media.    But would bet my house if he signs for 12 plus and isn't scoring at least 100 a season, he's going to become a whipping boy awfully fast.   Look at right now, past six weeks, and he's only taking up 7.35 of the cap.    

Edited December 27, 2023 by IBatch