[PGT] San Jose Sharks at Vancouver Canucks // December 23, 2023

[John.Tallhouse]

 

[Ghostsof1915]

3 hours ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Petey is one of two, Jack Hughes being the other, established under 26YO Centers in the NHL with 40-goal, 100-point potential, but the idiots here think he should be traded? That he's somehow worth $9M, which is less than his current 10.25M base salary? The Petey haters here are entirely INSANE! He will get his XL $11.5 - $12M contract here or elsewhere. If it's elsewhere, prepare for another five+ years of suck hockey because even if whoever signs him gives up picks to do so, they will be low first-rounders, the kind of guys who have to ripen over three to four years into NHLers and may never be more than depth players, because Petey will make any team he signs with instantly better. Every game, he draws the opposition's best shutdown center/line. Petey does that with wingers who belong on the third line of a good team. All the greats have (had) great linemates to deflect some of the defensive pressure. Hank had Danny, Naslund had Big Bert, and even the Great Gretzky had Kurri, Hull, Robitaille, Granato, etc., but in Vancouver, other than when he played on the Lotto Line, Petey has had to forge his own way. As I've written before on this site when Petey is on the ice, he is the focus; nobody cares about his wingers. The game plan these days is to beat Petey up, hit, hold, hook, slash, trip, and sloughfoot him at every opportunity. It's why he draws so many penalties against him. That is exhausting for anybody. I'm glad Kuzy is back on Line 1; hopefully, he sticks because his creativity will draw defense off of Petey. Petey's game started to suffer because of the apparent undisclosed injury, fatigue from a horrible first-half schedule and continued with the loss of Kuzy. Yet he is still on pace for 100 points again. Imagine if he centered Mark Stone. Unlike the fans who tend to be die-hard, for most players, hockey is transactional; players go where they have the best chance to win and make big bucks. It's a business, and stories like the Sedins playing 20 years with the team that drafted you are getting rarer. The team should get him signed long-term as soon as possible, because Petey is special, and almost every other team in the league would love to have him.

You know the 3 year contract signed in starting from 2021-22,  Petey made $4 million including bonuses, in his first year, made $7.8 million year 2, and $10.25 this year for an average of $7.35 million right?

That's how his contract was structured. He wasn't making $10.25 for 3 years.

I don't blame management trying to get Petey to trim his next contract on the agreement it will allow the team to be more competitive. He's still going to get paid.

I think some on here don't think we can find a way to make it work. It's not they want to see Petey gone. They just don't want us to turn into the Oilers or Leafs.

I'm hoping both sides will find a fair deal. Petey has got to like what he sees from the team this season so far.

 

 

[Canuckleheads Fan]

1 hour ago, Sergiomomesso said:

Sopel was never mobile to begin with. And he never bulked up. Boeser on the other hand got huge two summers ago and had two terrible years of hockey. 

Boeser's two terrible years had nothing to do with bulking up and everything to do with the mental distraction of his dad's cancer.

[Tusk]

4 hours ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Petey is one of two, Jack Hughes being the other, established under 26YO Centers in the NHL with 40-goal, 100-point potential, but the idiots here think he should be traded? That he's somehow worth $9M, which is less than his current 10.25M base salary? The Petey haters here are entirely INSANE! He will get his XL $11.5 - $12M contract here or elsewhere. If it's elsewhere, prepare for another five+ years of suck hockey because even if whoever signs him gives up picks to do so, they will be low first-rounders, the kind of guys who have to ripen over three to four years into NHLers and may never be more than depth players, because Petey will make any team he signs with instantly better. Every game, he draws the opposition's best shutdown center/line. Petey does that with wingers who belong on the third line of a good team. All the greats have (had) great linemates to deflect some of the defensive pressure. Hank had Danny, Naslund had Big Bert, and even the Great Gretzky had Kurri, Hull, Robitaille, Granato, etc., but in Vancouver, other than when he played on the Lotto Line, Petey has had to forge his own way. As I've written before on this site when Petey is on the ice, he is the focus; nobody cares about his wingers. The game plan these days is to beat Petey up, hit, hold, hook, slash, trip, and sloughfoot him at every opportunity. It's why he draws so many penalties against him. That is exhausting for anybody. I'm glad Kuzy is back on Line 1; hopefully, he sticks because his creativity will draw defense off of Petey. Petey's game started to suffer because of the apparent undisclosed injury, fatigue from a horrible first-half schedule and continued with the loss of Kuzy. Yet he is still on pace for 100 points again. Imagine if he centered Mark Stone. Unlike the fans who tend to be die-hard, for most players, hockey is transactional; players go where they have the best chance to win and make big bucks. . The team should get him signed long-term as soon as possible, because Petey is special, and almost every other team in the league would love to have him.

It's a business, and stories like the Sedins playing 20 years with the team that drafted you are getting rarer

Stories like the Sedins playing 20 years for a team are exactly why we might have to let Petey go.

If his big bucks and superstar status are more important than the team, We need to let him go. 

 

None of us want that. But if he does a Luongo deal, what happens when he has a dry spell like this? What percentage of the cap for the WHOLE TEAM does he feel he deserves?

[PeteyBOI]

On 12/25/2023 at 3:12 PM, I.AM.THE.WALRUS said:

20 years later when you realize those are all actors.

[Canuckleheads Fan]

5 minutes ago, Tusk said:

It's a business, and stories like the Sedins playing 20 years with the team that drafted you are getting rarer

Stories like the Sedins playing 20 years for a team are exactly why we might have to let Petey go.

If his big bucks and superstar status are more important than the team, We need to let him go. 

 

None of us want that. But if he does a Luongo deal, what happens when he has a dry spell like this? What percentage of the cap for the WHOLE TEAM does he feel he deserves?

And without Petey, the Miller line gets the other team's shut down line and the third line no longer gets to feast on bottom six players. The key to maintaining excellence, as Tampa has done is great amateur and pro scouting. Drafting well and developing young talent to sprinkle throughout the lineup, and spotting and acquiring underused players like DeSmith and Lafferty, and signing undrafted NCAA players all who can play bottom pairing and bottom six minutes after a year or two in the A. The current management team seems to be doing a fine job of that.

[Tusk]

1 minute ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

And without Petey, the Miller line gets the other team's shut down line and the third line no longer gets to feast on bottom six players. The key to maintaining excellence, as Tampa has done is great amateur and pro scouting. Drafting well and developing young talent to sprinkle throughout the lineup, and spotting and acquiring underused players like DeSmith and Lafferty, and signing undrafted NCAA players all who can play bottom pairing and bottom six minutes after a year or two in the A. The current management team seems to be doing a fine job of that.

Totally agree. but is value %10 of the whole team cap? %11? 

At what point do you say Petey is worth both a Garlund and a Kuzy? or a Joshua and a Kuzy and a Mik?

[Canuckleheads Fan]

8 minutes ago, Tusk said:

Totally agree. but is value %10 of the whole team cap? %11? 

At what point do you say Petey is worth both a Garlund and a Kuzy? or a Joshua and a Kuzy and a Mik?

 

8 minutes ago, Tusk said:

Totally agree. but is value %10 of the whole team cap? %11? 

At what point do you say Petey is worth both a Garlund and a Kuzy? or a Joshua and a Kuzy and a Mik?

To give him 11.5 to 12m, you would only have to shed Garland's contract. It would hurt some, but he's making too much for a third line role.

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

 

To give him 11.5 to 12m, you would only have to shed Garland's contract. It would hurt some, but he's making too much for a third line role.

Not really. Petey st 11 per (snd IMHAO he’s not going for this much; mid like 9.5) is what we will see if it’s an 8 year deal. 
Hoping we get Petey at 11. That’s a steal for such a great player. 

[Barn Burner]

15 minutes ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

 

To give him 11.5 to 12m, you would only have to shed Garland's contract. It would hurt some, but he's making too much for a third line role.

Not at all.

 

Including Garland, the entire 3rd line is just under $8 mil a year. Plus, why would you want Garland gone the way he's playing? 

 

The 4th line, $3.5 mil? 

 

There's around $35 mil tied up in the top two lines.

 

That leaves about what? $38 mil for the D, goalies and extras. 

 

There's $13 mil off the books at the end of the year as well, which included Beauvillier, who is obviously gone already. 

 

Anyway, there's no need to shed Garland's contract, unless Tocchet doesn't like the way he's performing with Joshua and Blueger. 

 

I highly doubt it.  

[PeteyBOI]

as for Peteys contract im just glad no one is saying 13 and 14 million anymore... we are only 31 games removed from people using Tchachuk as a similar contract.

 

Now we are using Mcdavid and Matthews...

 

well for one thing... I know this for a fact... a little nerding our right now, BUT a long term contract is not entirely based off one season, and CONTEXT matters...

 

as for comparables... they Begin at leon Draisaitl's 11.3% and current contract and end at Ryan Getzlafs 12.8% contract

that means between 9.9 and 11.25M he hasnt earned a Matthews,McDavid,MacKinnon,Malkin contract...

of course this is all subject to change as the season progresses... if he hits top 5 in scoring it will be closer and perhaps more than 11.25m.

he doesnt have the Hands of those M players.... its the only thing separating them

Edited December 27, 2023 by MidKnight Ego

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 hour ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Boeser's two terrible years had nothing to do with bulking up and everything to do with the mental distraction of his dad's cancer.

That and I think Tocchet is just the right head coach for him.  If he doesn't win the Jack Adams trophy, I say the voting was rigged!

[AatuD2]

1 hour ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

And without Petey, the Miller line gets the other team's shut down line and the third line no longer gets to feast on bottom six players. The key to maintaining excellence, as Tampa has done is great amateur and pro scouting. Drafting well and developing young talent to sprinkle throughout the lineup, and spotting and acquiring underused players like DeSmith and Lafferty, and signing undrafted NCAA players all who can play bottom pairing and bottom six minutes after a year or two in the A. The current management team seems to be doing a fine job of that.

 

Just wanna point out that everyone on Tampa took a million less then what they could've made in free agency. 

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

 

To give him 11.5 to 12m, you would only have to shed Garland's contract. It would hurt some, but he's making too much for a third line role.

 

I think you are missing a bigger picture here. If Petey gets 11.5-12 mil, what do you say to Hughes in 3 years? And to Boeser in a year? It’s really easy to become Oilers/Maple Leafs with overloaded top salaries that don’t leave extra room for the supporting players. Even take a look at Avs when their superstars got really paid - they are moving in the opposite direction compare to where they were before. Teams that want to be competitive for a long time have to distribute the cap more evenly.

[Canuckleheads Fan]

31 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I think you are missing a bigger picture here. If Petey gets 11.5-12 mil, what do you say to Hughes in 3 years? And to Boeser in a year? It’s really easy to become Oilers/Maple Leafs with overloaded top salaries that don’t leave extra room for the supporting players. Even take a look at Avs when their superstars got really paid - they are moving in the opposite direction compare to where they were before. Teams that want to be competitive for a long time have to distribute the cap more evenly.

If you don't pay him what he's worth, he will be gone, and we become the Coyotes in a perpetual rebuild. The cap goes up next year and the following years. You have to choose your top four or five guys and pay them, then fill in around them with ELCs and guys on bargain contracts. That's the way the league works these days. Quality 1Cs are impossible to find, you can't trade for them; a 25-year-old top-seven 1C who is two or three years from fully maturing will get paid.

[Canuckleheads Fan]

1 hour ago, AatuD2 said:

 

Just wanna point out that everyone on Tampa took a million less then what they could've made in free agency. 

And I will point out that they play in a state with no income tax and generally low taxes. That million less that they agreed to is made by low taxes.

[Canuckleheads Fan]

43 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I think you are missing a bigger picture here. If Petey gets 11.5-12 mil, what do you say to Hughes in 3 years? And to Boeser in a year? It’s really easy to become Oilers/Maple Leafs with overloaded top salaries that don’t leave extra room for the supporting players. Even take a look at Avs when their superstars got really paid - they are moving in the opposite direction compare to where they were before. Teams that want to be competitive for a long time have to distribute the cap more evenly.

If you move or lose Petey, the team's decline will mean you won't have to worry about Quinn; he, too, will be gone. I'm sure NJ could figure a way to get him under the cap and hold a Hughes family reunion, something he might sign a bargain contract for. Look what happened in Calgary: they lost Tkachk and Gudreau, and there was a parade to the doors.

[I.AM.THE.WALRUS]

7 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

So as long as he doesn't overdo it.  Remember when Sopel bulked up way back when?  Really affected his mobillity (imho).

True true - good point

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

If you don't pay him what he's worth, he will be gone, and we become the Coyotes in a perpetual rebuild. The cap goes up next year and the following years. You have to choose your top four or five guys and pay them, then fill in around them with ELCs and guys on bargain contracts. That's the way the league works these days. Quality 1Cs are impossible to find, you can't trade for them; a 25-year-old top-seven 1C who is two or three years from fully maturing will get paid.

Please tell me how this approach is working for Oilers and Leafs…

[I.AM.THE.WALRUS]

4 hours ago, MidKnight Ego said:

20 years later when you realize those are all actors.

Naw it’s real… 

 

maybe 

 

 

too real….

[PeteyBOI]

3 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

Please tell me how this approach is working for Oilers and Leafs…

and Chicago and Minnesota... patrick Kane and Toews 15.2% ... or Zach Parise and Ryan Suter... 12.5%

 

 

[Canuckleheads Fan]

48 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

Please tell me how this approach is working for Oilers and Leafs…

You have to pay your stars or they leave at free agency, and then you're the Calgary Flames. Toronto's problem is they are currently playing three guys $11M each. The problem with Edmonton is they are playing Nurse over $9M, a player worth probably no more than $5M. What's you solution? Let Petey walk after next year? That would be a massive setback for the team. MacKinnon is the benchmark for Petey, they put up comparable stats in spite of Petey being three years younger. MacKnnon makes $12.6M. Colorado is exactly what I'm talking about, they pay their stars, and surround them with have a bunch of guys on bargain contracts. If the Canucks can continue their winning ways, players will take less to stay, or to come as FAs for the chance to win a cup. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Canuckleheads Fan

[RomanPer]

7 minutes ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

You have to pay your stars or they enter leave at free agency, and then you're the Calgary Flames. What's you solution? Let him walk after next year? That would be a massive setback for the team.

 

I asked you a question - how is it working for Oilers and Leafs? And @MidKnight Ego brought two more great example of Chicago and Minnesota. You are deflecting.

 

If your star is only thinking about his own pocket and not thinking about how his demand will affect the entire team - who cares about that star? $10 million/season for 8 years is shitload of money and if someone is squeezing the team for extra $1.5 mil/season, which could be a difference between being able or not to bring another piece of puzzle - he is not a team player. You can’t win with such players.

 

if anything - not paying Petey the absolute maximum will show the rest of the players that the management is thinking about everyone, not just one superstar. Your example of Calgary is not valid - both Tkachuk and Gudreau left not because of money (Calgary offered them not less than what they ended up getting elsewhere).

 

And seeing Alvin operate - I’m sure that if the deal can’t be done, he’ll trade Petey for a king’s ransom.

Edited December 27, 2023 by RomanPer

[PeteyBOI]

12M is 13.7% and would be the 4th highest paid player right now... and 3rd highest RFA signing in the history of the game considering CH%

and would be the 9th highest paid Player in terms of CH% for forwards in the history of the game... 9 cups come from those 9 players but only 1 came after they signed these contracts from Malkin...

 

McDavid, Connor

100.0%

EDM

Jul. 5, 2017

21

8

2018-26

Standard

RFA

UFA

C

Left

127

148

16.67%

$12,500,000

$12,500,000

Results

PLAYER	% MATCH	SIGNING TEAM	SIGNING DATE	SIGNING AGE	LENGTH	YEARS	TYPE	SIGNED AS	ARB. ELIG	ARB. REQ	EXPIRY	POS	HANDED	GP	P	C.H.%	CAP HIT	AAV
Matthews, Auston	84.0%	TOR	Aug. 23, 2023	26	4	2024-28	Standard	UFA			UFA	C	Left	481	542	15.87%	$13,250,000	$13,250,000
MacKinnon, Nathan	72.1%	COL	Sep. 20, 2022	27	8	2023-31	Standard	UFA			UFA	C	Right	638	648	15.27%	$12,600,000	$12,600,000
Kane, Patrick	71.0%	CHI	Jul. 9, 2014	26	8	2015-23	Standard	UFA			UFA	RW	Left	515	493	15.22%	$10,500,000	$10,500,000
Toews, Jonathan	71.0%	CHI	Jul. 9, 2014	26	8	2015-23	Standard	UFA			UFA	C	Left	484	440	15.22%	$10,500,000	$10,500,000
Malkin, Evgeni	62.2%	PIT	Jul. 1, 2013	27	8	2014-22	Standard	UFA			UFA	C	Left	458	560	14.77%	$9,500,000	$9,500,000
Matthews, Auston	59.5%	TOR	Feb. 5, 2019	21	5	2019-24	Standard	RFA			UFA	C	Left	182	178	14.64%	$11,640,250	$11,640,250
Panarin, Artemi	52.4%	NYR	Jul. 1, 2019	27	7	2019-26	Standard	UFA			UFA	LW	Right	322	320	14.29%	$11,642,857	$11,642,857
Kopitar, Anze	46.8%	LAK	Jan. 16, 2016	28	8	2016-24	Standard	UFA			UFA	C	Left	730	653	14.01%	$10,000,000	$10,000,000
Tavares, John	43.4%	TOR	Jul. 1, 2018	27	7	2018-25	Standard	UFA			UFA	C, LW	Left	669	621	13.84%	$11,000,000	$11,000,000

Edited December 27, 2023 by MidKnight Ego

[IBatch]

Some good points in this thread.   Bottom line is this core is probably  done for if we can't sign EP to a reasonable contract, or trade him for a reasonable return.  

 

Right now, this season and next season, we could also be witnessing this cores peak.   We can't expect Miller to keep going at his pace for more than maybe a couple seasons, this one and next one.   He's already been going at his "pace" since he was Brocks current age.  

 

EP should get better.   Especially if we can find him a winger, and on those who say he's not getting quality, 10.5 for your wingers isn't chump change (when it's Kuzmennko and Mikheyev),  Crosby played with so much less until Guentzal got paid.    And before Guentzal.    That's kind of what happens when you ask for, and get 13.5-14% of the cap.    EP will join Luongo and Naslund (who was the leagues top winger, and arguably the top 1-3 player at the time of his 13.6% deal), as the only guys to get that sort of piece of the pie.     11.88-12.32 if the caps at 88 next season (could be 87.5).   That's too much IMO, unless it's an 8 year deal, and it will affect our depth somewhere.  

 

Personally think that  what we see is what we get, and we shouldn't be paying for potential.   Can't afford a Huberdeau debacle, but a trade isn't out of the question either.   We also shouldn't be offering 14% of the cap, for anyone but an actual super-star...as in the top tier, the Crosby, McDavid, Ovi's.   Like Luongo was (best goalie in the league for a 7-8 year period, or second fiddle to Broduer), or Naslund (3 times in a row first team all-star..only Canuck to ever do that), and on Naslund he petered out and the team had to wait for his contract to be over.    

 

What we see is tough to gauge.  If we do the sample size over Millers time with us, Miller is ahead by a lot of points.   Does that make Miller a top five center too?   

 

Zibenejad, was a great comp for Miller.   Barkov is a the best (not great either, but ok anyways.  Barkov is the front runner for the Selke this year again.   EPs game isn't there yet)  comp for EP.    He's NOT a superstar by pure definition.

 

 There can only be one or two, in the league, at any given time.   McDavid/Mckinnon and maybe Draisatl/Crosby/Mathews have been filling that role for centers, the past couple 15 years or so.     There is a tier after that, and so far, that's where EP is.    All the guys named above, won Hardware and were named first or second team all-stars multiple all did it by age 19-24.   The oldest was Draisatl.   McKinnon was 22.    What we see is what we get.   A top 5-7 overall center.   Sure he could one day, because of injuries, and age (Crosby dropping out), get into the top five.   But others are gunning for that spot too, Jack Hughes, Beddard etc.     Don't think we should be calling anyone names or be consider haters for dissecting where his next deal should come in at.   I'm not convinced he's a perrenial top 1-3 center, so 14% is out of line.   Let alone a top 3 forward.    That's where folks saying 12 is too much, is coming from.   It truly is too much.   He'd need to score 110-115 a year like those guys, just to make PAR.    Right now, all he needs to do is score 70 to make par.    

 

What he is though, is part of a small group at a tier below.   So over 10 is fair.   Barkov, Mathew T, are a couple recent examples.   

 

Add his share of the 5% cap raise to 10, that's 10.5.    Those deals were signed in flat cap.   Where it gets muddy is, will he ask for a premium because of taxes.  Miller sure didn't, so hope he doesn't either.     10.5 doesn't put a ridiculous amount of pressure on EP either, and it also is where he's playing to the past 1.5 seasons.    The above guys, have repeatedly produced.