The God Thread

[Alflives]

11 hours ago, Doogie said:

Sorry Alf, I'm working a few things at the same time so wasn't able to articulate correctly. I've edited my original post. I wanted to say the Quran exists therefore God exists and this is because of the context and content of the Quran. 

But aren’t you relying on your personal faith that the content of the Koran to support God’s existence? To me it is about faith if God exists, regardless of the evidence used. 

[Gnarcore]

22 hours ago, RWMc1 said:

People should be able to critically analyze their own opinions as well as the opinions of others. Not to refute but to examine.

 

Most if not all people who reject the idea of a higher power believe in evolution.

 

Humans and their brains have evolved over billions of years.

The majority of human brains believe in a higher power.

Belief in a higher power is a sign of mental illness or a need to organize the physical universe in a comprehensible way.

 

The implication of this viewpoint is that 72% of mankind have less evolved brains and the ones who reject the notion of a higher power do so because of a more evolved brain. That's some pretty lofty arrogance.

 

The burden of proof is on the believer. I don't have to read any ancient texts because they are all made up crap. The implication is that you demand proof while refusing to examine any info or data provided. Obviously the evolved minds have their conclusions. That's somehow different than the Bible says so though.

 

A good God vs suffering. According to the Bible there is no suffering or pain in Heaven. Earth is not the real world according to the Bible. It is a mirror image, but is a pale comparison. The reason we are here is to purify ourselves to be "acceptable" in Heaven. People are "judged" by their actions. I think the Rapture is where a lot of misinterpretations are made on both sides. Many christians believe that all of them go up at once. That's not true. Only the firstfruits go. God's chosen ones. They rebuild the world for 1000 years at which point all people will be raised up and "judged". At that point they still have the freewill to accept or reject the Father. Suffering on Earth is part of the being in the physical world.

 

Some people are just stupid and others indoctrinated. Some believers are smart and rational as anyone. Like any grouping of people you have a mix of the how and the why. 

[smithers joe]

i may be wrong, but personally, i believe in a creator and that our soul's go to another dimension when we die here. i'll believe that until this life is over. i'm not so much religious that i won't see other's opinions, but my faith is present. there is so much we don't know about our beings, including scientist and clergy, that we'll only learn after we die. if i'm wrong, you can all laugh at me.

i don't think there is an arguement that either side can prove.

i agree about bible being written by scribes and only one story put in it. what i got out of the bible is, shrunken done to one sentence it reads, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. great words to live by.

[UnkNuk]

1 hour ago, smithers joe said:

i may be wrong, but personally, i believe in a creator and that our soul's go to another dimension when we die here. i'll believe that until this life is over. i'm not so much religious that i won't see other's opinions, but my faith is present. there is so much we don't know about our beings, including scientist and clergy, that we'll only learn after we die. if i'm wrong, you can all laugh at me.

 

That's one advantage that those of us who believe in some form of life after death have over those who don't.

 

If we're right, we can say "We told you so!".   If they're right, we'll never know.  Because we'll be dead.    

[RupertKBD]

Just my two cents, I think too many people view the Bible as an instruction manual, when it should really be looked at more like a guidebook....

 

Also, just because we can trace the authorship of the Quran back to the original text, (and I'm taking someone's word on that) all it means is that the people relating those accounts believed them. They do not prove the existence of God.

 

Empirical proof is not and cannot be conveyed in the text of a 1400 year old book.

[RupertKBD]

45 minutes ago, UnkNuk said:

 

That's one advantage that those of us who believe in some form of life after death have over those who don't.

 

If we're right, we can say "We told you so!".   If they're right, we'll never know.  Because we'll be dead.    

 

But can you? Won't the rest of us be in a "different place"?

 

.....Or maybe Hell is just a place with really lousy Internet, and we can receive our comeuppance once our 14.4 k modem finally connects. (as long as someone isn't on the phone)

[Elias Pettersson]

4 hours ago, smithers joe said:

i may be wrong, but personally, i believe in a creator and that our soul's go to another dimension when we die here. i'll believe that until this life is over. i'm not so much religious that i won't see other's opinions, but my faith is present. there is so much we don't know about our beings, including scientist and clergy, that we'll only learn after we die. if i'm wrong, you can all laugh at me.

i don't think there is an arguement that either side can prove.

i agree about bible being written by scribes and only one story put in it. what i got out of the bible is, shrunken done to one sentence it reads, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. great words to live by.

As usual, it’s the oldest poster on the forum who is also the wisest. Thanks Joe for your objective advice on all of this. 

[smithers joe]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

As usual, it’s the oldest poster on the forum who is also the wisest. Thanks Joe for your objective advice on all of this. 

thanks lad. i never liked the god thread. it's two sides fighting over information that none of us have. and we won't have in this life time.

lets just love each other and let the chips fall where they might.

[Ilunga]

On 9/26/2023 at 5:27 AM, RWMc1 said:

People should be able to critically analyze their own opinions as well as the opinions of others. Not to refute but to examine.

 

Most if not all people who reject the idea of a higher power believe in evolution.

 

Humans and their brains have evolved over billions of years.

The majority of human brains believe in a higher power.

Belief in a higher power is a sign of mental illness or a need to organize the physical universe in a comprehensible way.

 

The implication of this viewpoint is that 72% of mankind have less evolved brains and the ones who reject the notion of a higher power do so because of a more evolved brain. That's some pretty lofty arrogance.

 

The burden of proof is on the believer. I don't have to read any ancient texts because they are all made up crap. The implication is that you demand proof while refusing to examine any info or data provided. Obviously the evolved minds have their conclusions. That's somehow different than the Bible says so though.

 

A good God vs suffering. According to the Bible there is no suffering or pain in Heaven. Earth is not the real world according to the Bible. It is a mirror image, but is a pale comparison. The reason we are here is to purify ourselves to be "acceptable" in Heaven. People are "judged" by their actions. I think the Rapture is where a lot of misinterpretations are made on both sides. Many christians believe that all of them go up at once. That's not true. Only the firstfruits go. God's chosen ones. They rebuild the world for 1000 years at which point all people will be raised up and "judged". At that point they still have the freewill to accept or reject the Father. Suffering on Earth is part of the being in the physical world.

 

 

Human brains have not evolved over billions of years.

 

Our human ancestors first appeared sometime between 5 - 7 million years ago.

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

12 hours ago, smithers joe said:

thanks lad. i never liked the god thread. it's two sides fighting over information that none of us have. and we won't have in this life time.

lets just love each other and let the chips fall where they might.

 

Thats the problem with some people Joe, they see a philosophical/  existential discussion as a fight, or a means to belittle others. 

 

Some of us love to ponder and discuss these things. 

 

 Bottom line 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Ilunga

[Jester13]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Thats the problem with some people Joe, they see a philosophical/  existential discussion as a fight, or a means to belittle others. 

 

Some of us love to ponder and discuss these things. 

 

 Bottom line 

 

 

 

 

 

I will say, llunga, that although I appreciate believers who are willing to discuss these sorts of big topics (and I'm not in favour of non-believers taking the belittling approach), believers still always do end up with deflections and outright ghosting as soon as they are faced with solid reasoning, logic, and evidence against the ancient God hypothesis, so they're not truly pondering anything. It's a shame, as the discussion(s) can be even more interesting if they kept examining and challenging their own beliefs. But I digress. 

[RupertKBD]

21 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

As usual, it’s the oldest poster on the forum who is also the wisest. Thanks Joe for your objective advice on all of this. 

 

We don't agree on a lot, but I certainly agree with the oldest guys being the wisest....

[Playoff Beered]

One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected. …[This] convention protects them, and so they proceed with their blather unwhipped and almost unmolested, to the great damage of common sense and common decency. that they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly. Nor is there any visible intellectual dignity in theologians. Few of them know anything that is worth knowing, and not many of them are even honest.

—H.L. Mencken

 

[Sharpshooter]

2 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

 

We don't agree on a lot, but I certainly agree with the oldest guys being the wisest....

God help us all

 

 

[Ilunga]

16 hours ago, Jester13 said:

I will say, llunga, that although I appreciate believers who are willing to discuss these sorts of big topics (and I'm not in favour of non-believers taking the belittling approach), believers still always do end up with deflections and outright ghosting as soon as they are faced with solid reasoning, logic, and evidence against the ancient God hypothesis, so they're not truly pondering anything. It's a shame, as the discussion(s) can be even more interesting if they kept examining and challenging their own beliefs. But I digress. 

 

 

 

 

[smithers joe]

every time i hear the arguements, i think of an old lady crossing the road and getting short of halfway when the light changes. horns are honking, drivers impatient with her holding them up. on the sidewalk, the two groups, sure their right call the old lady to come to their way of thinking. me, i'm going out to help that old lady get safely across to the curb.

[RupertKBD]

15 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

God help us all

 

 

Well, not with an attitude like that.....

[bishopshodan]

It's been said a few times in this thread but the only thing that could imply there is a god, to me, is LOVE.

 

One of my best tattoo's is a Mucha style maiden, she is mother nature coming out of an ocean, she is holding a necklace in her hand, it's the symbol my wife and I use as our 'logo', it's also on our wedding rings. The necklace pendant (logo)is glowing with radiant light beams. The mother nature figure is beautiful and powerful looking however she has hollow eyes, just black. The tattoo artist hated that I made him 'leave out the eyes' I explained that although this mother nature is beautiful and godly, she is a fantasy, that the real power is in the love she is holding in her hands. 

 

 

[smithers joe]

6 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

It's been said a few times in this thread but the only thing that could imply there is a god, to me, is LOVE.

 

One of my best tattoo's is a Mucha style maiden, she is mother nature coming out of an ocean, she is holding a necklace in her hand, it's the symbol my wife and I use as our 'logo', it's also on our wedding rings. The necklace pendant (logo)is glowing with radiant light beams. The mother nature figure is beautiful and powerful looking however she has hollow eyes, just black. The tattoo artist hated that I made him 'leave out the eyes' I explained that although this mother nature is beautiful and godly, she is a fantasy, that the real power is in the love she is holding in her hands. 

 

 

the important love is in our hearts. 

[112]

I've more often been an atheist than a theist in my years but have been known to shift. When I'm feeling spiritual, I don't by necessity believe in the Abrahamic god and likewise do not by necessity consider the Bible or the Qu'ran to have merit, although I've read both.

 

As far as creation goes, I believe in the Big Bang theory, but I don't see any aspect of what we know about it which contradicts a creator(s). And I'll admit I'm largely more on the atheist side than the theist one, but I really don't enjoy how these discussions happen in online circles: people primarily argue against the Biblical God and consider that if the stories are not factual (they're not), God must certainly not exist (fallacious).

 

I've had several spiritual experiences, but these seem to have been preemptively dismissed as mental illness by posters in this thread. However, spiritual experiences are arguably the best foundation upon which to have theological beliefs. People ask for evidence above faith but dismiss evidence when it's presented in this way... granted, yes, spiritual experiences are subjective and personal, but what other evidence do people expect to exist? I think the type of person who raises her fist and demands of God that he lift a stone from the ground in defiance of gravity hasn't done much thought on the nature of theology; if the universe /did not/ act in a predictable way, following its laws and constants, then all that would rule is chaos. There's an old Catholic belief that God can prohibit Himself from doing something; for example, He promised not to flood the earth again after Noah, and He would be able to make a pizza pop so hot that even He can't eat it. So why would God not prohibit Himself from fucking around with quantum mechanics and the law/force of gravity when these are important features of life? I really don't see 'science' (a word that's poorly understood) as defeating theology when any kind of creator would have had to craft a universe that could be studied empirically. There's no other way to do it, but a great many people seem to look at experiments being possible to recreate and immediately consider this to disprove all religion.

 

There's also the distinct possibility that God is dead. He might have blown Himself up when He hit the button on the Big Bang, for example. It might be that we're too far out in space for God to even know we're here, but it doesn't mean He didn't create the universe.

 

I suppose I should call myself agnostic but that's too boring.

[bishopshodan]

2 minutes ago, 112 said:

I suppose I should call myself agnostic but that's too boring.

how is being open to all posibilities... boring?

[112]

9 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

how is being open to all posibilities... boring?

 

Well, it's like, pick a side, you coward!

 

Boring may have been the wrong word.

[bishopshodan]

2 minutes ago, 112 said:

 

Well, it's like, pick a side, you coward!

 

Boring may have been the wrong word.

Nah, conflict is soo human. 

 

plus it's imo the only option because none ya'll can prove shite either way

[4petesake]

3 minutes ago, 112 said:

 

Well, it's like, pick a side, you coward!

 

Boring may have been the wrong word.

Sounds like you do pick a side but are willing to change your mind as your personal experiences move you. Not boring or cowardly, but fairly rare these days. 

 

[smithers joe]

at the end of the day, what does this topic prove one way or the other? it won't change my mind or anybodies elses. you either believe or not. i've been on both sides of the question. i was 60 before a series of events over two years that i couldn't explain changed my opinion. i've never pushed my views on anyone. i firmly believe i'll see my wife and family again someday. it doesn't matter if i will or won't but i'll believe that till my dying breath.