The God Thread

[Sharpshooter]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

My cup of tea is continually trying to be better informed on the topics I am interested in.

Imagine if our species had closed minds, science would not exist.

 

Again I will quote Artur. C. Clarke

 

" The only way to discover the limits of the possible, is to go beyond them into the impossible "

 

Do you agree with that ?

 

As an athlete to progress/ get more proficient, I had to continually push beyond the boundaries of my abilities.

Looking to the impossible to see,

discover, or locate if something is possible is one thing. 
 

Claiming that some supernatural entity is possible without any evidence or mechanism by which to gather evidence and then also proffer it as a reality, should be to everyone, something impossible. 

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

It’s not an assertion that a god does not exist. 
 

It’s the refutation of the claim that one does. 
 

Show some evidence to that claim or until such time it’s logical to suggest that the absence of evidence is the absence of credibility of the claim. 
 

 

 

Dress it up however you want, you are claiming that a god does not exist.

 

Provide some facts to back up your claim.

I will gladly accept these facts and stop being an agnostic and become an athiest.

 

I am an agnostic because I believe that the nature and existence of gods is unknown and inherently unknowable due to the subjective nature of experience.

 

Kinda dictionary meaning of the term agnostic.

 

[Ilunga]

41 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

Schroedinger's Deity. God simultaneously exists and does not exist until you open the box (die)

 

Yes I have heard this " idea " proposed before.

 

I welcome any and all ideas/ thoughts on this subject.

[Ilunga]

15 minutes ago, Alflives said:

What exactly does science have to do with a discussion of God’s existence? God’s existence is about faith, because there is no evidence that God does exist. If this was science then since there is no evidence proving God exists then that’s what the conclusion would be. No evidence = no God. 

 

It's about having an open mind.

 

We currently don't have evidence of Multiverses, does that mean we should give up exploring the possibility they exist ?

 

What was there before the big bang ? 

The big bounce ? 

 

 

https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a34941841/big-bounce-universe-theory/

 

And what was there before that ?

 

Should we just give up exploring possibilities just because we don't currently have evidence for them ?

 

[Sharpshooter]

13 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Dress it up however you want, you are claiming that a god does not exist.

 

Provide some facts to back up your claim.

I will gladly accept these facts and stop being an agnostic and become an athiest.

 

I am an agnostic because I believe that the nature and existence of gods is unknown and inherently unknowable due to the subjective nature of experience.

 

Kinda dictionary meaning of the term agnostic.

 

You cannot prove a negative. 
 

Prove to me that flying pink elephants don’t exist. 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

You cannot prove a negative. 
 

Prove to me that flying pink elephants don’t exist. 

 

You are the one making the assertion that a god does not exist.

The burden of proof is on the individual making the assertion.

 

As you know, I make no assertion either way.

 

As for the Pink Elephants, are you claiming they really do exist ?

Again the burden of proof lies with you to prove your assertion.

[Sharpshooter]

12 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

You are the one making the assertion that a god does not exist.

The burden of proof is on the individual making the assertion.

 

As you know, I make no assertion either way.

 

As for the Pink Elephants, are you claiming they really do exist ?

Again the burden of proof lies with you to prove your assertion.

No, I’m refuting the existence of any gods, ghosts, demons, goblins, unicorns, without evidence. 
 

I’m not claiming anything about any god except to claim that there’s no evidence for any god and thus the conclusion is are no gods. 
 

I don’t need to hum and haw about maybe there could be, better wait and see, sitting on the fence over here, kinda stuff. 
 

Either there is evidence for or absent any there is none…till such time some can be produced. 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I’ll settle for any natural evidence for the claim of the supernatural. 
 

Till then, shall we be agnostic about Ginesh, Thor and Ra?

 

No thanks. 
 

 

[Optimist Prime]

17 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

One persons " deal with god " 

 

https://www.curetoday.com/view/-i-struck-a-deal-with-god-a-cancer-survivor-s-story-on-finding-faith

 

Results of study how people with faith cope with cancer.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11793286/Religious-people-cope-better-with-cancer...unless-they-think-God-is-punishing-them.html

 

Interestingly to me, a series of studies looked at the impact of prayer on the ill. without looking it up, from memory, those who were religious and knew they were being prayed for, had almost a 4% higher likelihood of getting better/suriving, while those who were given plecebos (fake medicine but told it was valid medicine) had a little over a 3% bump... There was no noticed bump from non religious people who knew they were prayed over, no bump from those who knew they were given a plecebo and no bump from religious people who did not know they were being prayed over. A rough summary for me is to say that if you believe in it, prayer is a good placebo! The human mind is an amazing and resilient thing. I am an athiest, but if a loved one was religious, I am fine with their fellow cultists letting them know they are being prayed for. Placebo's are scientifically proven to work. I support that, along with ALL THE BEST MEDICINE SCIENCE CAN PROVIDE> 

[Optimist Prime]

Today we have witnessed what power a cult can have on its people. FOlks with Tshirts and rocks believe that if their god is with them they can overcome the Technological and immense firepower of the incredibly modern and rich nation of Israel. it makes me sad that someone in bluejeans wtih a rock will die today becuase a terrorist radical religious group told him he would die a martyr and god will reward him. 

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

No, I’m refuting the existence of any gods, ghosts, demons, goblins, unicorns, without evidence. 
 

I’m not claiming anything about any god except to claim that there’s no evidence for any god and thus the conclusion is are no gods. 
 

I don’t need to hum and haw about maybe there could be, better wait and see, sitting on the fence over here, kinda stuff. 
 

Either there is evidence for or absent any there is none…till such time some can be produced. 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I’ll settle for any natural evidence for the claim of the supernatural. 
 

Till then, shall we be agnostic about Ginesh, Thor and Ra?

 

No thanks. 
 

 

 

You are twisting words.

 

I will make it simple for you.

 

Do you assert there is no God  ?

Yes or no.

[Sharpshooter]

17 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

You are twisting words.

 

I will make it simple for you.

 

Do you assert there is no God  ?

Yes or no.

Let me make my words very clear for you. 
 

I see no evidence for a god. Therefore I don’t believe there is a god. 

[Ilunga]

6 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Interestingly to me, a series of studies looked at the impact of prayer on the ill. without looking it up, from memory, those who were religious and knew they were being prayed for, had almost a 4% higher likelihood of getting better/suriving, while those who were given plecebos (fake medicine but told it was valid medicine) had a little over a 3% bump... There was no noticed bump from non religious people who knew they were prayed over, no bump from those who knew they were given a plecebo and no bump from religious people who did not know they were being prayed over. A rough summary for me is to say that if you believe in it, prayer is a good placebo! The human mind is an amazing and resilient thing. I am an athiest, but if a loved one was religious, I am fine with their fellow cultists letting them know they are being prayed for. Placebo's are scientifically proven to work. I support that, along with ALL THE BEST MEDICINE SCIENCE CAN PROVIDE> 

 

Prayer is a form of power of the mind.

 

If you read that article you would have noted the results.

 

I have a friend who has just been informed he has cancer, terminal diagnosis.

He is a strong willed guy.

We talk about the power of the mind and strength of will in relation to any hope he has of surviving. 

 

I am also aware of the power of placebos, which again display the power of the mind.

 

 

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Let me make my words very clear for you. 
 

I see no evidence for a god. Therefore I don’t believe there is a god. 

 

So you assert there is no God ?

[Alflives]

7 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Today we have witnessed what power a cult can have on its people. FOlks with Tshirts and rocks believe that if their god is with them they can overcome the Technological and immense firepower of the incredibly modern and rich nation of Israel. it makes me sad that someone in bluejeans wtih a rock will die today becuase a terrorist radical religious group told him he would die a martyr and god will reward him. 

Who were those crazies that all committed suicide when the comet Hale Bop passed by? I remember they were all wearing Nikes. We’re they God fearing or alien weirdo types? 

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Today we have witnessed what power a cult can have on its people. FOlks with Tshirts and rocks believe that if their god is with them they can overcome the Technological and immense firepower of the incredibly modern and rich nation of Israel. it makes me sad that someone in bluejeans wtih a rock will die today becuase a terrorist radical religious group told him he would die a martyr and god will reward him. 

 

Are you talking about this ?

 

https://www.9news.com.au/world/israel-news-hamas-launches-thousands-of-rockets-into-israel/cc538325-be14-494c-b153-e8488fa715c1

 

If so I would not put it down to any god.

 

The Palestinians are victims of arpartheid.

 

The international community, United Nations states this 

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702

 

Human rights organisations both within Isreal and organisations such as amnesty international state this 

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid

 

 

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

 

 

Prominent Isreali politician's and officials state this 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

The Isrealis have stolen the Palestinians freedom and they are slowly stealing their land. 

 

How can anyone defend an arpartheid regime. 

[Sharpshooter]

22 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

So you assert there is no God ?

I conclude there isn’t one based on an absence of evidence to conclude anything else. 

[Ilunga]

11 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

I conclude there isn’t one based on an absence of evidence to conclude anything else. 

 

Either you assert there is a god, you assert there is not a god, or like myself one is agnostic.

 

I see you have " cheered " PO's post about the conflict in Isreal.

Do you really believe that is driven by a belief in a god or the conditions the Palestinian people are forced to live under by the Isrealis ?

 

The international community states Isreal is an arpartheid state, human rights organisations including an Israeli one ,state this, a quarter of Isrealis agree with this including ex PM's and ex mossad chief. 

Do you agree or deny that Isreal practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people ?

 

How would you feel if you were a Palestinian living in the conditions they are forced to endure ? 

 

Even though your government refuses to condemn Isreal most Canadians agree that Isreal is an apartheid state.

 

https://www.readthemaple.com/similar-to-apartheid-most-popular-description-of-israel-among-canadians-poll-shows/

 

 

How would you feel if you were a Palestinian ?

 

If there is one people who are religiously driven by wanting to possess the state of Palestine/ Isreal, it is the Isrealis who believe that it was promised to them by a god.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

25 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Either you assert there is a god, you assert there is not a god, or like myself one is agnostic.

 

I see you have " cheered " PO's post about the conflict in Isreal.

Do you really believe that is driven by a belief in a god or the conditions the Palestinian people are forced to live under by the Isrealis ?

 

The international community states Isreal is an arpartheid state, human rights organisations including an Israeli one ,state this, a quarter of Isrealis agree with this including ex PM's and ex mossad chief. 

Do you agree or deny that Isreal practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people ?

 

How would you feel if you were a Palestinian living in the conditions they are forced to endure ? 

 

Even though your government refuses to condemn Isreal most Canadians agree that Isreal is an apartheid state.

 

https://www.readthemaple.com/similar-to-apartheid-most-popular-description-of-israel-among-canadians-poll-shows/

 

 

How would you feel if you were a Palestinian ?

 

If there is one people who are religiously driven by wanting to possess the state of Palestine/ Isreal, it is the Isrealis who believe that it was promised to them by a god.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope. 
 

The Claimant claims. 
 

The refusal of the claim, due to no evidence, is where I’m at. 
 

You can try your best to ridiculously box me in as someone attempting to assert/proffer a claim, when all I’ve ever said, even before you ever joined CDC even was, I refute the claim for any deity. 
 

If you have evidence for a deity, show your work. 
 

If you don’t, then what’s the point of this back and forth? 
 

If you’re on the fence about a deity, then provide some evidence that could provide a reason for your ‘fence-sitting’. 
 

Otherwise, you’re barking up the wrong tree, with me. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

[Quaz]

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Quaz

[Sharpshooter]

4 minutes ago, Quaz said:

 

Can any god make a rock so heavy that even that god can’t pick up?

 

god, and any claim for it, without evidence is ad absurdum, despite all the YouTube videos and Tik Toks trying to persuade others. 
 

Again, a supernatural claim requires and deserves at least, natural evidence. 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

Nope. 
 

The Claimant claims. 
 

The refusal of the claim, due to no evidence, is where I’m at. 
 

You can try your best to ridiculously box me in as someone attempting to assert/proffer a claim, when all I’ve ever said, even before you ever joined CDC even was, I refute the claim for any deity. 
 

If you have evidence for a deity, show your work. 
 

If you don’t, then what the point of this back and forth? 
 

If you’re on the fence about a deity, then provide some evidence that could provide a reason for your ‘fence-sitting’. 
 

Otherwise, you’re barking up the wrong tree, with me. 

 

 

 

 

Provide me with evidence that a some form of being that created the elements that make up the universe and ourselves does not exist and I will become an atheist.

 

I am sitting on the same fence in regards to Multiverses, in regards to what existed/ came before the big bang, on a whole lot of things I lack the knowledge to make a judgement call on.

 

I don't have enough evidence to come to a conclusion either way. 

 

Like Einstein

" My position concerning god is that of an agnostic " 

 

Like Degrassi Tyson

" If I find a word that came closest, it would be agnostic " 

 

Like Darwin 

" The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic "

 

Like Sagan 

" An athiest is someone who is certain god does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God.

I know of no such compelling evidence.

Because god can be relegated to remote times and places and to uptime causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such god exists. 

To be certain of the existence of God and you be certain of the non existence of God seem to me to be the confident in extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed "

 

If these great minds, and many more I could post up, think this way, that's good enough for me to join them.

 

I wasn't aware that length of time being a member of CDC in any of its forms was relevant to our discussion.

 

 

 

More importantly I would like you to state your opinion about Isreal.

Do you agree with the overwhelming evidence that it is a state that practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people ? 

 

 

Hope you are having a great weekend.

 

[Alflives]

Okay can we all agree it’s incumbent upon those who believe there’s a God to provide evidence? Because if there’s some strange belief it’s the responsibility of those who don’t believe to provide evidence God doesn’t exist then that’s just stupid reasoning.

And if that how we’re doing this then I want to see evidence the tooth faery, the Easter Bunny, Santa, and flying pink pig Gods don’t exist. Show me evidence to the contrary or it’s possible they exist! 
My “God” (Alf thought this was funny) this kind of reasoning is craperolla. 

[Ilunga]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Okay can we all agree it’s incumbent upon those who believe there’s a God to provide evidence? Because if there’s some strange belief it’s the responsibility of those who don’t believe to provide evidence God doesn’t exist then that’s just stupid reasoning.

And if that how we’re doing this then I want to see evidence the tooth faery, the Easter Bunny, Santa, and flying pink pig Gods don’t exist. Show me evidence to the contrary or it’s possible they exist! 
My “God” (Alf thought this was funny) this kind of reasoning is craperolla. 

 

Only those who are trying to convince others to believe in a god have to provide evidence to others who do not, to convince them to believe.

The vast majority of believers like my parents,were/are not trying to convince non believers to believe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Ilunga

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Only those who are trying to convince others to believe in a god have to provide evidence to others who do not, to convince them to believe.

The vast majority of believers like my parents,were/are not trying to convince non believers to believe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That’s all nice but it’s still up to those who believe there is a God to provide evidence. And, of course, there is none. Which is why believing in God us 100% faith. No scientific method. Not logic. No common sense. 100% faith. 
And that’s okay. Alf goes to church on Sundays. The wine is free! 

[Sharpshooter]

15 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Provide me with evidence that a some form of being that created the elements that make up the universe and ourselves does not exist and I will become an atheist.

 

I am sitting on the same fence in regards to Multiverses, in regards to what existed/ came before the big bang, on a whole lot of things I lack the knowledge to make a judgement call on.

 

I don't have enough evidence to come to a conclusion either way. 

 

Like Einstein

" My position concerning god is that of an agnostic " 

 

Like Degrassi Tyson

" If I find a word that came closest, it would be agnostic " 

 

Like Darwin 

" The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic "

 

Like Sagan 

" An athiest is someone who is certain god does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God.

I know of no such compelling evidence.

Because god can be relegated to remote times and places and to uptime causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such god exists. 

To be certain of the existence of God and you be certain of the non existence of God seem to me to be the confident in extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed "

 

If these great minds, and many more I could post up, think this way, that's good enough for me to join them.

 

I wasn't aware that length of time being a member of CDC in any of its forms was relevant to our discussion.

 

 

 

More importantly I would like you to state your opinion about Isreal.

Do you agree with the overwhelming evidence that it is a state that practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people ? 

 

 

Hope you are having a great weekend.

 

The causality of natural substances can be attributed to nature and its natural properties and processes. 
 

That hadn’t required a supernatural explanation for some time. 

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of star stuff”.
 

 

Guess who said that awhile ago and was backed up by actual evidence.