The God Thread

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, 4petesake said:

I’m not talking about conversion or proselytizing. I’m referring to applying their faith to how others should live. The abortion debate, gay marriage, etc are recent examples but think back to laws for businesses to close on Sunday, temperance laws…

 

A person’s faith can be a guidepost for their lives but not mine.

 

Times have changed my friend.

And they are continuing to change.

My 87 year old devout Catholic mother would have voted yes in our gay marriage referendum a while back if she had lived, she died a month before it was held.

She told me the majority of her congregation was going to vote yes. 

 

My mums faith was the ultimate guide post to mine.

Like my parents taught me, the " commandments " can be condensed to one simple rule, treat others the way you wish to be treated. 

Especially when those around you are not doing this.

Take it from me, this is the hardest challenge, but one I have lived up to.

All you can take to the grave with you is being true to yourself.

That is being true to myself.

 

As for abortion, you must be referencing America, in both our countries abortion is legal and many religious people condone both birth control and a woman's body, a woman's choice. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

41 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

You know very well we get to a point where we have don't have the knowledge to answer the question of creation.

Correct. 
 

We get to the point where there’s no evidence. 
 

You then suggest, “there’s a possibility”, and I say, “Show me evidence of a possibility”. 

 

And then there we are. 
 

Should we continue? 
 

I’m on the right side of logic. You’re not. You’re emotionally invested. 

[4petesake]

Just now, Quaz said:

I'm a theist, and my belief is that if I genuinely believe in God's existence and his allowance for everyone to lead their lives according to their own choices, then I should also respect that principle.  I don't feel it's my responsibility to try to change the beliefs or lives of those who share this planet with me.

I often face criticism for holding this view though.

Not from me.

 

I have zero interest in trying to convince @smithers joe or @Elias Pettersson  or anyone else that their is no God. I’m happy for my mother, @Ilunga’s parents or anyone who gets comfort from their faith as long as they leave it at that and not use personal faith to guide public policy.

 

 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

Correct. 
 

We get to the point where there’s no evidence. 
 

You then suggest, “there’s a possibility”, and I say, “Show me evidence of a possibility”. 

 

And then there we are. 
 

Should we continue? 
 

I’m on the right side of logic. You’re not. You’re emotionally invested. 

 

I am emotionally invested ?

How so ?

I don't have a horse in the race as the saying goes. 

 

Again it's just a discussion to me.

 

So Sagan, Darwin, Degrassi Tyson, Einstein, they were/ are all on the wrong side of logic ? 

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

The difference between this God Thread and the infamous one over at CDC, is that many of us still argue our viewpoints, but do it without vitriol. 
 

I have ‘Faith’ that we all will continue to do so.

 

This is one of those ‘Adult’ topics that require questions, questioning, maturity, education and a smidgeon of humour and self-awareness. 
 

 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am emotionally invested ?

How so ?

I don't have a horse in the race as the saying goes. 

 

Again it's just a discussion to me.

 

So Sagan, Darwin, Degrassi Tyson, Einstein, they were/ are all on the wrong side of logic ? 

 

 

Enjoy a drink my friend. You’re not making any sense. It’s 100% upon you and all those who believe there “might be” a Gid to provide evidence. 

[Quaz]

14 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Can you provide evidence that God exists? 

Not going down that road with people here.  As I mentioned in another post, these conversations are useless.
I simply responded to a post about the Epicurean Paradox.

If you're actually interested, then here is a link to read through.
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/the-new-atheism-and-five-arguments-for-god

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

The difference between this God Thread and the infamous one over at CDC, is that many of us still argue our viewpoints, but do it without vitriol. 
 

I have ‘Faith’ that we all will continue to do so.

 

This is one of those ‘Adult’ topics that require questions, questioning, maturity, education and a smidgeon of humour and self-awareness. 
 

 

Cute. “Faith” is the key. That which is based on the unproven. 

[Sharpshooter]

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am emotionally invested ?

How so ?

I don't have a horse in the race as the saying goes. 

 

Again it's just a discussion to me.

 

So Sagan, Darwin, Degrassi Tyson, Einstein, they were/ are all on the wrong side of logic ? 

 

 

Using Sagan as a means to your end has been shown to be a false narrative.

 

Quoting people without fully being aware of their other contradictory quotes, makes your argument less than. 

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

The difference between this God Thread and the infamous one over at CDC, is that many of us still argue our viewpoints, but do it without vitriol. 
 

I have ‘Faith’ that we all will continue to do so.

 

This is one of those ‘Adult’ topics that require questions, questioning, maturity, education and a smidgeon of humour and self-awareness. 
 

 

 

I mean this with all respect, you have changed my friend.

I have always admired your intelligence, your ability to think critically and logically.

You have empathy and compassion for others.

 

Sometimes I felt you used to make it personal, for a while now you have mellowed a bit. 

You are a good person brother, and I have no doubt you are making a great job of being a father.

 

I have never understood why people have make things personal.

 

[Alflives]

Dog is God spelled different. Dogs are ZGod! Prove me wrong. Provide evidence. If you can’t than Dog I’d God. Go Dog Go! (Great dr. Sues book) 

[Sharpshooter]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I mean this with all respect, you have changed my friend.

I have always admired your intelligence, your ability to think critically and logically.

You have empathy and compassion for others.

 

Sometimes I felt you used to make it personal, for a while now you have mellowed a bit. 

You are a good person brother, and I have no doubt you are making a great job of being a father.

 

I have never understood why people have make things personal.

 

Appreciate you and your words, always.
 

Let’s not get off topic. 

 

PM me if there’s anything you’d like to discuss further. 
 

Cheers mate/brother. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

7 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Using Sagan as a means to your end has been shown to be a false narrative.

 

Quoting people without fully being aware of their other contradictory quotes, makes your argument less than. 

 

I am aware of all their quotes.

You don't believe that I accessed dozens of their quotes on brainy quote and other sources.

 

Those people still expressed their agnostic views, as do other great thinkers.

 

Again I am not emotionally invested.

I have an open mind to many possibilities, I believe this is a good thing.

 

What I do know for a fact, as I have stated many times on this forum, when I die, my constituent elements go back to the stars from whence they came.

 

I also feel a for want of a better word a spiritual connection to nature, I always have.

From my days exploring the remote places in the high plains on dirt bikes, to back country skiing both here and around the world.

As a farmer I feel a connection to the land, I can't really explain that connection to others that don't feel it.

 

[Sharpshooter]

8 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Dog is God spelled different. Dogs are ZGod! Prove me wrong. Provide evidence. If you can’t than Dog I’d God. Go Dog Go! (Great dr. Sues book) 

[4petesake]

14 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Times have changed my friend.

And they are continuing to change.

My 87 year old devout Catholic mother would have voted yes in our gay marriage referendum a while back if she had lived, she died a month before it was held.

She told me the majority of her congregation was going to vote yes. 

 

My mums faith was the ultimate guide post to mine.

Like my parents taught me, the " commandments " can be condensed to one simple rule, treat others the way you wish to be treated. 

Especially when those around you are not doing this.

Take it from me, this is the hardest challenge, but one I have lived up to.

All you can take to the grave with you is being true to yourself.

That is being true to myself.

 

As for abortion, you must be referencing America, in both our countries abortion is legal and many religious people condone both birth control and a woman's body, a woman's choice. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We are not disagreeing and my mother lived and believed very much like yours. 
 

You’re missing the mark a little on abortion though because I realize that in our countries it’s legal. I realize that times are changing. That is exactly my point - I don’t care what a person’s faith tells them about abortion or gay marriage or birth control or anything else as long as they use those beliefs to guide only their own personal lives. I take issue with it when they use those beliefs to infringe on those who don’t share them.  For example if a person’s bible tells them that homosexuality is a sin - fine don’t engage in homosexual activities, but if they use their bible to pass judgment or laws on others is when I have a problem with religion.

 

[Sharpshooter]

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

I am aware of all their quotes.

You don't believe that I accessed dozens of their quotes on brainy quote and other sources.

 

Those people still expressed their agnostic views, as do other great thinkers.

 

Again I am not emotionally invested.

I have an open mind to many possibilities, I believe this is a good thing.

 

What I do know for a fact, as I have stated many times on this forum, when I die, my constituent elements go back to the stars from whence they came.

 

I also feel a for want of a better word a spiritual connection to nature, I always have.

From my days exploring the remote places in the high plains on dirt bikes, to back country skiing both here and around the world.

As a farmer I feel a connection to the land, I can't really explain that connection to others that don't feel it.

 

You may have accessed quotes from a website, but you seem to have not been aware of their contradictions in quotes. 
 

The best and brightest are certainly a reference for us all, but their words aren’t always your own. 
 

Don’t always rely on quotes to express your own words. Use them for sure, quote them, definitely, but your thoughts are your own. 
 

Express them and be genuine, and when all else fails, then use those brainy quotes to expand your own thoughts and ideas. 
 

Arguing or putting forth an argument that you stand behind should be in your own words. 
 

I’m sure I’ve done the same over the decades, so I’m not pure as the new fallen snow. 
 

Either we discuss using the knowledge, experience and understanding of those past to enlighten others, or we’re misconstruing and misunderstanding for our own inane gains. 
 

By the way, spirituality, transcendence, and a connection between to others or this world we live in, doesn’t require a belief in the supernatural or hedging bets. 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, 4petesake said:

We are not disagreeing and my mother lived and believed very much like yours. 
 

You’re missing the mark a little on abortion though because I realize that in our countries it’s legal. I realize that times are changing. That is exactly my point - I don’t care what a person’s faith tells them about abortion or gay marriage or birth control or anything else as long as they use those beliefs to guide only their own personal lives. I take issue with it when they use those beliefs to infringe on those who don’t share them.  For example if a person’s bible tells them that homosexuality is a sin - fine don’t engage in homosexual activities, but if they use their bible to pass judgment or laws on others is when I have a problem with religion.

 

 

The only people I knew that were against gay marriage in our country were some of my friends who are as far from religious as you could get.

Like I love them dearly,  they have been loyal great friends however they just didn't get it.

How do I put this, I pointed out they did  same thing with girls and yet they couldn't handle the idea of consenting males doing it. 

 

I have a problem with anyone who tries to force their beliefs on anyone.

So long as you are not impacting others in a negative manner, then what right has anyone to step in and tell you what is wrong or right 

Therein lies the rub, who determines what is a negative manner, wrong/ right 

Good and bad are subjective things determined by the majority in any given society. 

 

I know what I believe is good/ bad and when I have the right to step in and make not only a judgement but act.

Several times in my life I have been put into  the position of having to step in and stop a man from assaulting a woman.

One of those times I knew I was going to get the Sh!t beaten out of me, and I did, however you have to stand up for what is right.

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

You may have accessed quotes from a website, but you seem to have not been aware of their contradictions in quotes. 
 

The best and brightest are certainly a reference for us all, but their words aren’t always your own. 
 

Don’t always rely on quotes to express your own words. Use them for sure, quote them, definitely, but your thoughts are your own. 
 

Express them and be genuine, and when all else fails, then use those brainy quotes to expand your own thoughts and ideas. 
 

Arguing or putting forth an argument that you stand behind should be in your own words. 
 

I’m sure I’ve done the same over the decades, so I’m not pure as the new fallen snow. 
 

Either we discuss using the knowledge, experience and understanding of those past to enlighten others, or we’re misconstruing and misunderstanding for our own inane gains. 
 

By the way, spirituality, transcendence, and a connection between to others or this world we live in, doesn’t require a belief in the supernatural or hedging bets. 

 

I look to the great thinkers for guidance, my opinions/ views are formed with their input.

However in the end I am a strong willed person that makes his own decisions and comes to his own conclusions.

 

Why I am an agnostic is that I cannot come to a conclusion about the existence of a god.

The Quote of Sagan's I posted summed up my thoughts best.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Ilunga

[Sharpshooter]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I look to the great thinkers for guidance, my options/ views are formed with their input.

However in the end I am a strong willed person that makes his own decisions and comes to his own conclusions.

 

Why I am an agnostic is that I cannot come to a conclusion about the existence of a god.

The Quote of Sagan's I posted summed up my thoughts best.

I believe I’ve responded adequately as well. 

 

Cheers mate.  

[4petesake]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

The only people I knew that were against gay marriage in our country were some of my friends who are as far from religious as you could get.

Like I love them dearly,  they have been loyal great friends however they just didn't get it.

How do I put this, I pointed out they did  same thing with girls and yet they couldn't handle the idea of consenting males doing it. 

 

I have a problem with anyone who tries to force their beliefs on anyone.

So long as you are not impacting others in a negative manner, then what right has anyone to step in and tell you what is wrong or right 

Therein lies the rub, who determines what is a negative manner, wrong/ right 

Good and bad are subjective things determined by the majority in any given society. 

 

I know what I believe is good/ bad and when I have the right to step in and make not only a judgement but act.

Several times in my life I have been put into  the position of having to step in and stop a man from assaulting a woman.

One of those times I knew I was going to get the Sh!t beaten out of me, and I did, however you have to stand up for what is right.

 

That’s the thing right. We all know how hard it is in this world to find love. In whose arms they find it is none of my business, I’m just glad they found it.
 

Your beliefs of good and evil and how to live your life come come from your heart and don’t rely on a bible to tell you what’s right or wrong or how you should treat others. Same as mine.

[Inkidu]

57 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I am emotionally invested ?

How so ?

I don't have a horse in the race as the saying goes. 

 

Again it's just a discussion to me.

 

So Sagan, Darwin, Degrassi Tyson, Einstein, they were/ are all on the wrong side of logic ? 

 

 

 

I think you mean a god in the fight. 

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Inkidu said:

 

I think you mean a god in the fight. 

Nah like Sharpie stated, unlike the original thread on the old forum, this  discussion is reasonably polite. 

 

EP got a little flustered however I don't think anyone was attacking him personally.

 

Ideas are there to be challenged, especially ideas that have no evidence to back them up.

 

Personally, I will never attack a persons faith, even if I don't agree with them, I believe reason and logic are better tools. 

 

It all gets down to how you treat others.

I have read most religious texts at least twice.

You have to look past the words to find the meanings of the allegories they contain.

[Inkidu]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Nah like Sharpie stated, unlike the original thread on the old forum, this  discussion is reasonably polite. 

 

EP got a little flustered however I don't think anyone was attacking him personally.

 

Ideas are there to be challenged, especially ideas that have no evidence to back them up.

 

Personally, I will never attack a persons faith, even if I don't agree with them, I believe reason and logic are better tools. 

 

It all gets down to how you treat others.

I have read most religious texts at least twice.

You have to look past the words to find the meanings of the allegories they contain.

 

Do you mean the official sacred texts of the major religions, because there literally millions of of religious texts. 

Either way, scriptures are byproducts of religion, not religion itself. They might contain some truth but you would only recognize it if you had already found it. 

 

[Junkyard Dog]

5 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Nah like Sharpie stated, unlike the original thread on the old forum, this  discussion is reasonably polite. 

 

EP got a little flustered however I don't think anyone was attacking him personally.

 

Ideas are there to be challenged, especially ideas that have no evidence to back them up.

 

Personally, I will never attack a persons faith, even if I don't agree with them, I believe reason and logic are better tools. 

 

It all gets down to how you treat others.

I have read most religious texts at least twice.

You have to look past the words to find the meanings of the allegories they contain.

 

How much do you know about the Abrahamic religions and their relations and differences with each other?

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

55 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Nah like Sharpie stated, unlike the original thread on the old forum, this  discussion is reasonably polite. 

 

EP got a little flustered however I don't think anyone was attacking him personally.

 

Ideas are there to be challenged, especially ideas that have no evidence to back them up.

 

Personally, I will never attack a persons faith, even if I don't agree with them, I believe reason and logic are better tools. 

 

It all gets down to how you treat others.

I have read most religious texts at least twice.

You have to look past the words to find the meanings of the allegories they contain.

Just remember, you may have read translations of various religious texts. 
 

You, nor I, have read them in their academic and actual languages.