Optimist Prime Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said: You have any studies in particular or have heard any conversations between different religious leaders/figures? I always enjoy these kinds of 'Friendly Debates'. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 On 10/10/2023 at 1:09 AM, Jester13 said: There's a moment in every conversation where a believer is presented with something that they have no response to, and they then proceed to practice mental gymnastics to get out of the conflict in their beliefs, so they resort to a dodge, deflection, or outright ghosting, all so they don't have to confront the conflict and possibly admit a hard truth to themselves. It has happened many, many times in this thread. Here are some major points of evidence presented (you've already pointed some of them out): The problem of evil Abscence of evidence Argument of incoherence Evolution and natural explanations Cultural and historical influences Problem of divine hiddenness Using logic, reason, and science are tools of evidence for the nonexistence of God. These points are not evidence for the non existence, they are arguments against. Give me some solid evidence that a creator being of some sort does not exist and I will gladly become an athiest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Ilunga said: These points are not evidence for the non existence, they are arguments against. Give me some solid evidence that a creator being of some sort does not exist and I will gladly become an athiest. When you provide any solid evidence for a Creator in the ways the religions have stipulated, then evidence against ‘it’ will be produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 8 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said: I don’t mind learning about religion as it’s ingrained into so much culture and history throughout the world. I mean over 80% of the world believes in some higher power which is crazy to think. You have any studies in particular or have heard any conversations between different religious leaders/figures? I also enjoy philosophy. That kind of turned me away from being religious. Well… that and the one time my father tried to put me in church pre-school and I ended up throwing a chair at the teacher on my first day. I have also enjoyed reading the works of Philosophers. That is what a the discussion really is, a philosophical one. This article is not about a theological discussion, it's a about religious leaders gathering to agree to work together to help the world become a better place https://www.onecountry.org/story/religious-leaders-gather-their-own-un-summit-also-pledging-work-peace-and-tolerance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 8 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: When you provide any solid evidence for a Creator in the ways the religions have stipulated, then evidence against ‘it’ will be produced. I have not stipulated anything. In fact I used the word creator in the post you have replied to. Please don't bother replying unless you can provide me with evidence. It's obvious our discussion has come to an impasse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I have not stipulated anything. In fact I used the word creator in the post you have replied to. Please don't bother replying unless you can provide me with evidence. It's obvious our discussion has come to an impasse. I can’t provide evidence something doesn’t exist if you don’t prove evidence it does exist. Impasse it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 On 10/9/2023 at 10:09 AM, Jester13 said: There's a moment in every conversation where a believer is presented with something that they have no response to, and they then proceed to practice mental gymnastics to get out of the conflict in their beliefs, so they resort to a dodge, deflection, or outright ghosting, all so they don't have to confront the conflict and possibly admit a hard truth to themselves. It has happened many, many times in this thread. Here are some major points of evidence presented (you've already pointed some of them out): The problem of evil Abscence of evidence Argument of incoherence Evolution and natural explanations Cultural and historical influences Problem of divine hiddenness Using logic, reason, and science are tools of evidence for the nonexistence of God. 51 minutes ago, Ilunga said: These points are not evidence for the non existence, they are arguments against. Give me some solid evidence that a creator being of some sort does not exist and I will gladly become an athiest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 1 minute ago, Jester13 said: I am not a believer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 54 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: When you provide any solid evidence for a Creator in the ways the religions have stipulated, then evidence against ‘it’ will be produced. By this logic we may as well lock up the thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 I just noticed somebody said can't explain evil. I guess they've never been to a Christian church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 22 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I am not a believer. Doesn't mean you still don't have an actual response to solid arguments. You circled back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, Jester13 said: Doesn't mean you still don't have an actual response to solid arguments. You circled back. I have asked you to provide me with evidence that a creator does not exist. As you have stated yourself, you have provided arguments not evidence. I am not trying to argue for the existence of a creator being. Until evidence is provided for, or against the existence of a creator being, I will remain an agnostic, which is the only the logical, rational position to hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I have asked you to provide me with evidence that a creator does not exist. As you have stated yourself, you have provided arguments not evidence. I am not trying to argue for the existence of a creator being. Until evidence is provided for, or against the existence of a creator being, I will remain an agnostic, which is the only the logical, rational position to hold. Are you just going to dismiss the arguments that you asked for though? You asked for evidence and you know arguments are only what can be provided. You don't seem appreciative that he's putting in the effort and work for your question, just an observation. This should be about a journey of understanding, not "show me or I'm not coming!" while stomping feet. You don't even have to agree with anything. It should be about coming up with points for and against. (Wow, I sound high suddenly) Edited October 11, 2023 by The Lock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 13 minutes ago, The Lock said: Are you just going to dismiss the arguments that you asked for though? You asked for evidence and you know arguments are only what can be provided. You don't seem appreciative that he's putting in the effort and work for your question, just an observation. This should be about a journey of understanding, not "show me or I'm not coming!" while stomping feet. You don't even have to agree with anything. It should be about coming up with points for and against. (Wow, I sound high suddenly) Go back through the thread. I have expressed my appreciation for his input. Told him this thread is better for his presence. His arguments have not persuaded me to change my views. As I have stated, I am an agnostic and will remain so until evidence can be provided to convince me otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 21 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I have asked you to provide me with evidence that a creator does not exist. As you have stated yourself, you have provided arguments not evidence. I am not trying to argue for the existence of a creator being. Until evidence is provided for, or against the existence of a creator being, I will remain an agnostic, which is the only the logical, rational position to hold. One last time: it's completely irrational to ask someone to prove something doesn't exist. You keep denying this easily understood logic, which is the epitome of cognitive dissonance, so rather than facing it, you resort to circling back to an already debunked stance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 19 minutes ago, Jester13 said: One last time: it's completely irrational to ask someone to prove something doesn't exist. You keep denying this easily understood logic, which is the epitome of cognitive dissonance, so rather than facing it, you resort to circling back to an already debunked stance. My stance is that is unknown and unknowable. You have not debunked that stance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 6 minutes ago, Ilunga said: My stance is that is unknown and unknowable. You have not debunked that stance. What is unknown and unknowable? God? If yes, how do you define God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkidu Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 11 hours ago, Optimist Prime said: Just saw this now over coffee, but it speaks to my points precisely. Krauss pontificating on religion is about as meaninful as a physics book written by Sarah Palin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, Jester13 said: What is unknown and unknowable? God? If yes, how do you define God? The existence of a being that might have created the elements that make up the universe. We get to a point in creation where we don't have answers. I am not saying the human construct of a god is an answer, or even any sort being. I am stating we don't have evidence to prove either way. Maybe one day we will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 4 minutes ago, Ilunga said: The existence of a being that might have created the elements that make up the universe. We get to a point in creation where we don't have answers. I am not saying the human construct of a god is an answer, or even any sort being. I am stating we don't have evidence to prove either way. Maybe one day we will. So you don't think it's unknowable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 8 minutes ago, Ilunga said: The existence of a being that might have created the elements that make up the universe. We get to a point in creation where we don't have answers. I am not saying the human construct of a god is an answer, or even any sort being. I am stating we don't have evidence to prove either way. Maybe one day we will. You're a skeptic? On both fronts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said: You're a skeptic? On both fronts? I simply don't have enough evidence to come to a conclusion either way. I have posted this a few times, if you haven't read it, it's food for thought. https://suebrayne.co.uk/2011/03/28/professor-brian-cox-god-and-the-universe/ Edited October 11, 2023 by Ilunga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 7 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I simply don't have enough evidence to come to a conclusion either way. I have posted this a few times, if you haven't read it, it's food for thought. https://suebrayne.co.uk/2011/03/28/professor-brian-cox-god-and-the-universe/ Sounds to me like you're coming around to realizing that the universe can instill a spiritual sense of awe without the need to attribute it to a deity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkidu Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, Jester13 said: Sounds to me like you're coming around to realizing that the universe can instill a spiritual sense of awe without the need to attribute it to a deity. Maybe you could define your use of the term "spiritual"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 The feeling of connection to people, oneself, the universe, etc. without attributing it to a supernatural deity or beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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