The God Thread

[Optimist Prime]

3 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

 

My experience is a bit less dire....

 

I find that when faced with facts about religion that defy explanation, religious folks tend to fall back on the "We mere mortals can't understand the intricacies of God's plan", mantra....To which my response is usually something like, "Oh....so it's magic then, is it?"

I have had delusional cultists react with extreme verbal hostility about my eternal soul...lol

[Ilunga]

10 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Basically yes, there are good people among the 'flock' being fleeced by religions, however, in a topic discussing gods and religion there is no force involved in the discussion, one, without regard for their personal beliefs is free to read or not bother reading. Force is like when the Catholic Church laid siege to the last Cathar stronghold and forced them to either convert or die. Forced is when the Catholics and Anglicans opened Residential schools to 'kill the native in the child', and turn First Nations children in Canada into good little christians. Forced is what we are seeing the vast majority of good muslims in Gaza being led to this horrific war by their leaders, Hamas, for no gains, massive loss of life and limb for an ideology that forgets humanity along the way. 

 

Anyway you get the idea, words in forum are not forcing anything, history itself speaks to the force with which Atheists' have been subject to for several millennia now. 

 

edit: in fact, if i said the things I have said in this forum at any point in history from about 1850 years ago until about 120 years ago, I might not live another day, and if I said them in certain countries even just yesterday, I might not be alive right now. That is force.

 

But that isn't the case now, times have changed and they continue to change. 

 

As for being fleeced do you have evidence of this ?

The money my parents used to give to the church was mostly used in the local community. 

 

Words and specifically the ideas they convey are very important wherever they are used.

 

As Stalin stated 

 

" Ideas are more powerful than guns, we would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas "

 

 

And actually religion is not at the heart of the conflict in Palestine, it's Nationalism.

At its heart it's a conflict between two self determination movement's.

Both groups of people want a home/ nation of their own. 

One group is being deprived of freedom/ home. 

 

As for if you stated what you are saying now would get you killed in another country ?

No Christian country would do this, so presumably you are suggesting a Muslim one.

You haven't abused their prophet or religion so why would you get killed ?

 

 

[Ilunga]

10 hours ago, Jester13 said:

Well, I'm not mocking anyone, but I do have a firm stance that living in delusion is detrimental in the long run. Granted, there are many people who aren't harmful to society with their religious delusion, but there are plenty of examples of how same or similar delusional thinking is incredibly harmful to society, both historically, presently, and likely predictably in the future. 

 

Enlightenment is important for our species. 

 

Yes you are.

Would you state this to religious people's faces ?

And continuing with this religious delusion. 

Is it delusional to be kind, and treat others with respect ? 

I learnt these things from my religious parents.

 

How do a group of people gathering in a building in Monbulk, sharing a bond, helping themselves and others have a negative impact on you or anybody else for that matter ?

Why insult them stating they are delusional ?  

There are fellow members of this board who read this thread who I think we all respect, Joe, Petey, you are effectively calling them delusional.

 

Have you noted how religious institutions have evolved in the last 100 odd years ?

And they continue to do so.

 

You know what true enlightenment is, treating others the way you wish to be treated. 

 

 

Unless you like being mocked, you don't seem enlightened to me.

 

As for religious people hurting others, seeing as the majority of people are religious, and in any given group of people you will find good, bad and everything in-between, then of course there is going to be a lot of sh!tty religious people. 

And as I have pointed out before, if you take away religion, people would find other reasons to be $hitty to each other, that's what people do, find reasons to justify their actions.

 

I have already planned my death bed conversion.

After all if there is a god I have covered that base, and if there isn't then no harm/ foul.

[Ilunga]

11 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

^ and when good little christians have lost the words to counter any arguments I make, they condemn my soul to eternal damnation and suffering in the pits of a hell that only they believe in.

 

No Christian I have ever met would do such a thing.

Sorry one, Father Murray.

However that was well over 40 years ago and dinosaurs like him are rare.

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, Inkidu said:

 

Interesting fact that young Dawkins was very influenced by the ideas of the priest Tielhard de Chardin which we would call intelligent design. The church, uncomfortable with the growing attention he was attracting, transferred him to China. Problem solved, except de Chardin discovered Peking Man and became even more famous. 

Anway, Weinstein is right, big science can be just as tyrannical as the religious institutions it displaced. 

 

I first learnt about de Chardin reading the fantasy series by Julian May, Saga of the Exiles.

Looked into him a bit and found out about his stance on racial and individual Eugenics.

He was also highly critical of the United Nations declaration of the equality of races. 

 

Bit of a shame really, for his day, he combined science and religion in a unique way.

[Jester13]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

Yes you are.

Would you state this to religious people's faces ?

And continuing with this religious delusion. 

Is it delusional to be kind, and treat others with respect ? 

I learnt these things from my religious parents.

 

How do a group of people gathering in a building in Monbulk, sharing a bond, helping themselves and others have a negative impact on you or anybody else for that matter ?

Why insult them stating they are delusional ?  

There are fellow members of this board who read this thread who I think we all respect, Joe, Petey, you are effectively calling them delusional.

 

Have you noted how religious institutions have evolved in the last 100 odd years ?

And they continue to do so.

 

You know what true enlightenment is, treating others the way you wish to be treated. 

 

 

Unless you like being mocked, you don't seem enlightened to me.

 

As for religious people hurting others, seeing as the majority of people are religious, and in any given group of people you will find good, bad and everything in-between, then of course there is going to be a lot of sh!tty religious people. 

And as I have pointed out before, if you take away religion, people would find other reasons to be $hitty to each other, that's what people do, find reasons to justify their actions.

 

I have already planned my death bed conversion.

After all if there is a god I have covered that base, and if there isn't then no harm/ foul.

We're having a philosophical discussion about a deep topic - no emotions need he involved. Speaking of delusional thinking can be a discussed about many topics. Offence is not intended nor should be taken as such. If someone isn't up for such a discussion, they can choose not to partake. 

 

And I do treat others like I want to be treated, such as steelmanning someone's arguments out of respect for debate and the person. That's why it's a shame when others don't do the same and instead, now, appeal to emotions to garner support rather than addressing an argument presented. Philosophy and emotions don't go well together. 

[Ilunga]

58 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

We're having a philosophical discussion about a deep topic - no emotions need he involved. Speaking of delusional thinking can be a discussed about many topics. Offence is not intended nor should be taken as such. If someone isn't up for such a discussion, they can choose not to partake. 

 

And I do treat others like I want to be treated, such as steelmanning someone's arguments out of respect for debate and the person. That's why it's a shame when others don't do the same and instead, now, appeal to emotions to garner support rather than addressing an argument presented. Philosophy and emotions don't go well together. 

 

No emotions are involved on my part. Would you like me to call your ideas delusional ? 

Claim your ideas are archaic ?

I think not, and I would not do this, because I respect you, and your right to hold your ideas. 

These are emotionally loaded terms.

 

As for obsolete answers, the religious people I know believe in evolution, in the process of scientific discovery.

My father was an aircraft design engineer. 

Like me he loved mathematics.

 

 

 

[Jester13]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

No emotions are involved on my part. Would you like me to call your ideas delusional ? 

Claim your ideas are archaic ?

I think not, and I would not do this, because I respect you, and your right to hold your ideas. 

These are emotionally loaded terms.

 

As for obsolete answers, the religious people I know believe in evolution, in the process of scientific discovery.

My father was an aircraft design engineer. 

Like me he loved mathematics.

 

 

 

It wouldnt bother me if you did because I known they're not, and I'm secure in my stances and can argue them without getting upset.

[Ilunga]

56 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

It wouldnt bother me if you did because I known they're not, and I'm secure in my stances and can argue them without getting upset.

 

So other people's feeling don't matter to you ? 

Apart from you I haven't encountered anyone who likes being called delusional.

 

Then again I don't go around insulting people calling them delusional. 

 

Are you actually a licensed Psychiatrist that has the knowledge/ background to diagnose someone as delusional ?

 

[Jester13]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

So other people's feeling don't matter to you ? 

Apart from you I haven't encountered anyone who likes being called delusional.

 

Then again I don't go around insulting people calling them delusional. 

 

Are you actually a licensed Psychiatrist that has the knowledge/ background to diagnose someone as delusional ?

 

Of course other people's feelings matter to me, llunga. It might be worth going back to re-read my post(s) with a different lense, one that leaves feelings aside and interprets the meaning in an abstract way on both the micro and macro levels.

[Ilunga]

31 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Of course other people's feelings matter to me, llunga. It might be worth going back to re-read my post(s) with a different lense, one that leaves feelings aside and interprets the meaning in an abstract way on both the micro and macro levels.

 

Mate calling some one delusional is pretty insulting to me whatever lense I view it through.

 

And I take it personally when that term is used to describe the best people I have ever known, my parents, who I can assure you were as far from delusional as people could be.

 

 

[Jester13]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

Mate calling some one delusional is pretty insulting to me whatever lense I view it through.

 

And I take it personally when that term is used to describe the best people I have ever known, my parents, who I can assure you were as far from delusional as people could be.

 

 

I'm not sure what else to say except intention matters, and however you choose to interpret it and take personal offence is up to you. 

 

Fwiw, not all delusional beliefs are tied to mental health.

[Playoff Beered]

4 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Mate calling some one delusional is pretty insulting to me whatever lense I view it through.

 

And I take it personally when that term is used to describe the best people I have ever known, my parents, who I can assure you were as far from delusional as people could be.

 

This you?

 

On 10/7/2023 at 8:21 PM, Ilunga said:

Why, I don't ask you to change your beliefs, or put shit upon them.

It's just another discussion to me. 

 

“One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected. …[This] convention protects them, and so they proceed with their blather unwhipped and almost unmolested, to the great damage of common sense and common decency. that they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly. Nor is there any visible intellectual dignity in theologians. Few of them know anything that is worth knowing, and not many of them are even honest.”
― H.L. Mencken, H.L. Mencken on Religion

 

[Optimist Prime]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Mate calling some one delusional is pretty insulting to me whatever lense I view it through

I think the larger point is that to me, and others in this discussion, religious folks are delusional about their belief in God. To insist that non believers can't use specific words in rebuttal to the professed existence of God just isn't rational. You or rather one side of the discussion doesn't get to set the terms and scope and breadth of that discussion.

 

I believe your folks were amazingly good people because they shaped you to also be so. They also happened to be religious. I don't think they would have been worse people if they happened to not be religious, which is what is implied also in your statements defending them. I know you're awesome, and they did a great job at parenting, and could have also done just as great a job without God.

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

This you?

 

 

“One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected. …[This] convention protects them, and so they proceed with their blather unwhipped and almost unmolested, to the great damage of common sense and common decency. that they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly. Nor is there any visible intellectual dignity in theologians. Few of them know anything that is worth knowing, and not many of them are even honest.”
― H.L. Mencken, H.L. Mencken on Religion

 

It's not the gotcha moment you think.

 

I do take insults to people I Iove/ loved personally. 

 

You can't even come up with original thoughts.

You keep posting the same quotes ad infinitum. 

Mocking and insults is all you add to this thread.

That speaks volumes as to what sort of person you are.

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I think the larger point is that to me, and others in this discussion, religious folks are delusional about their belief in God. To insist that non believers can't use specific words in rebuttal to the professed existence of God just isn't rational. You or rather one side of the discussion doesn't get to set the terms and scope and breadth of that discussion.

 

I believe your folks were amazingly good people because they shaped you to also be so. They also happened to be religious. I don't think they would have been worse people if they happened to not be religious, which is what is implied also in your statements defending them. I know you're awesome, and they did a great job at parenting, and could have also done just as great a job without God.

 

Quick google search

Is is calling someone delusional offensive 

 

" To be called delusional is a real insult, generally used by a miserable person in order to discredit someone " 

 

No I don't get to determine what others do.

Their actions speak for themselves as to what sort of person they are.

 

 

The dictionary meaning of the word delusional

 

" Characterising by holding false beliefs or judgements about external reality that are held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, typically as a symptom of a mental condition, hospitalisation for schizophrenia and delusional paranoia " 

 

Still waiting for that incontrovertible evidence.

 

 

[Ilunga]

And none of you have addressed the fact that as I have pointed out science and religion can coexist.

Newton I wonder if him being " delusional "  contributed to him formulating the theory of gravity.

Galileo, Kepler.

 

As this article states that was then we know more about the world what about know  ?

 

https://www.magiscenter.com/blog/23-famous-scientists-who-are-not-atheists

 

Want to tell these Nobel prize winners they are delusional ? 

 

Damn, good to be that delusional that your work in science is rewarded with a Nobel prize.

[Optimist Prime]

37 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

And none of you have addressed the fact that as I have pointed out science and religion can coexist.

Newton I wonder if him being " delusional "  contributed to him formulating the theory of gravity.

Galileo, Kepler.

 

As this article states that was then we know more about the world what about know  ?

 

https://www.magiscenter.com/blog/23-famous-scientists-who-are-not-atheists

 

Want to tell these Nobel prize winners they are delusional ? 

 

Damn, good to be that delusional that your work in science is rewarded with a Nobel prize.

In the case of long dead scientists: they lived in an age where if they did not say they believed in God they would have been murdered in horrible ways. That is not evidence to say they were religious. In the case of contemporary scientific minds who claim to be religious: I am certain there are some, but I can't think of any names off the top of my head. 

[Ilunga]

Just now, Optimist Prime said:

In the case of long dead scientists: they lived in an age where if they did not say they believed in God they would have been murdered in horrible ways. That is not evidence to say they were religious. In the case of contemporary scientific minds who claim to be religious: I am certain there are some, but I can't think of any names off the top of my head. 

 

I just posted up a link to some prominent scientists that are religious and have been awarded the Nobel prize. 

 

As of 2009 a pew  research centre poll found that roughly half of American scientists believe in a god/ universal spirit/ higher power.

 

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/#:~:text=According to the poll%2C just,universal spirit or higher power.

 

 

[Playoff Beered]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I just posted up a link to some prominent scientists that are religious and have been awarded the Nobel prize. 

 

As of 2009 a pew  research centre poll found that roughly half of American scientists believe in a god/ universal spirit/ higher power.

 

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/#:~:text=According to the poll%2C just,universal spirit or higher power.

 

Oh good, we're half way there.

 

[Ilunga]

17 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Oh good, we're half way there.

 

 

 

Repetitively posting the same unoriginal thoughts. 

Sigh.

Why do like baiting people ?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Master Mind]

10 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Repetitively posting the same unoriginal thoughts. 

Sigh.

Why do like baiting people ? 

 

Some people choose to add nothing of value to a conversation and simply aren't worth responding to. (I expect this post to be replied to with yet another half baked meme)

 

14 hours ago, Ilunga said:

The dictionary meaning of the word delusional

 

" Characterising by holding false beliefs or judgements about external reality that are held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, typically as a symptom of a mental condition, hospitalisation for schizophrenia and delusional paranoia " 

 

Still waiting for that incontrovertible evidence.

 

While I don't think the poster who used that term meant it in an offensive way, it should be reasonable to expect that using such terminology isn't an effective way of communicating when seeking a worthwhile discussion. It's the same when people using terms like "sky fairy". It reveals that the biases are sometimes too strong to contain.

[bishopshodan]

3 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

It's the same when people using terms like "sky fairy". It reveals that the biases are sometimes too strong to contain.

 

Hmm,

I use that term but accept the possibility of intelligent design. 

So in my case it may show some bias against the tales that people, even in this thread, are claiming are facts. Their reasoning being due to mass belief. 

 

So I use it a diss to the idea that religions tell us about a 'G'od, as they have as much merit as fairy tales.

[Optimist Prime]

For those who would like to censure the word delusional: I am open to changing to another term. 

 

What word can I use to suggest that folks who believe in the unprovable and supernatural stories we are discussing here in this thread, and believe it so hard and so fully as to support genocidal cults and even in some cases support the idea of murdering those who do not share the belief; what word or short sentence fragment would you use to describe their unshakable faith in the unknown and unproven if not 'delusional'. If we can find another term, I will be happy to use it to appease your delicate sensibilities. 

 

EDIT: Oh wait, i am probably not "allowed" to use the word cult either. 

 

I will rephrase in the way you want to impose upon me:

 

"These delightfully cognizant and wise upholders of the truth are members of a heavinly congregation of good doers."

 

See, when you stop me using some descriptiive words in the debate, the debate loses its original meaning entirely. 

I will go back to just using the simple form that leaves no ambiguity in my position: Delusional Cultists.

[Master Mind]

6 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Hmm,

I use that term but accept the possibility of intelligent design. 

So in my case it may show some bias against the tales that people, even in this thread, are claiming are facts. Their reasoning being due to mass belief. 

 

So I use it a diss to the idea that religions tell us about a 'G'od, as they have as much merit as fairy tales.

 

Correct, the claim that 'it must be true due to x number of people believing it' is not a sound argument.

 

But I'm just meaning that when certain phrases are used, it's less likely that others will view you as wanting to actually discuss the topic vs mocking it.