The God Thread

[Master Mind]

9 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

For those who would like to censure the word delusional: I am open to changing to another term. 

 

What word can I use to suggest that folks who believe in the unprovable and supernatural stories we are discussing here in this thread, and believe it so hard and so fully as to support genocidal cults and even in some cases support the idea of murdering those who do not share the belief; what word or short sentence fragment would you use to describe their unshakable faith in the unknown and unproven if not 'delusional'. If we can find another term, I will be happy to use it to appease your delicate sensibilities. 

 

You are lumping together people who believe in a faith with people who support murder. These are not the same, and it's disappointing to see you frame it this way.

 

Use whatever word you wish, I'm just pointing out how certain terminology can shape a conversation.

[bishopshodan]

1 minute ago, Master Mind said:

 

Correct, the claim that 'it must be true due to x number of people believing it' is not a sound argument.

 

But I'm just meaning that when certain phrases are used, it's less likely that others will view you as wanting to actually discuss the topic vs mocking it.

 

That's fair.

 

I'll try to park that term if I come across a believer that is open to admit that faith is the core of thier beliefs and not facts.

 

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen"

 

That said, like you and I do on occasion, there can be communication that perhaps requires calmer, thicker skin when claims of creationism, or an all knowing, all seeing, long beareded, sit on a cloud, type things are being presented. 

[Master Mind]

6 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

That's fair.

 

I'll try to park that term if I come across a believer that is open to admit that faith is the core of thier beliefs and not facts.

 

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen"

 

That said, like you and I do on occasion, there can be communication that perhaps requires calmer, thicker skin when claims of creationism, or an all knowing, all seeing, long beareded, sit on a cloud, type things are being presented. 

 

Calmness and thicker skin certainly help keep these conversations more reasonable when discussing with someone with differing views.

 

To the bolded, you have come across that person here

[Playoff Beered]

1 hour ago, Master Mind said:

Some people choose to add nothing of value to a conversation and simply aren't worth responding to. (I expect this post to be replied to with yet another half baked meme)

 

And some people are so narrow minded that they don't see value unless it benefits their preconceived notions on a subject.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 10/3/2023 at 4:39 PM, Sharpshooter said:

Just give me some discernible evidence of a diety. 

Gary Bettman bows to Jeremy Jacobs whenever they meet.

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, Master Mind said:

 

You are lumping together people who believe in a faith with people who support murder. These are not the same, and it's disappointing to see you frame it this way.

 

Use whatever word you wish, I'm just pointing out how certain terminology can shape a conversation.

Agreed. Hapless sheep in the flock, to borrow the term, are certainly not murderous nor do they generally condone it, however, looking at historical "Faith based" believers in a global broad stroke: Catholics have murdered for two thousand years to plant themselves a dominant 'faith' in global affairs. We are watching Hamas now murdering babies in the name of their god... and we have seen 'good christians' here in North America somehow justify murdering doctors for providing womens health services. 

In broad strokes the cults are generally murderous if it suits their purpose, which they all tend to point out is really Gods Plan, not theirs, despite gods plan changing depending on which cult you are talking to. I have often thought of the murderous fringe in these cults as the toxic waste of the Religio-Corporate sector of the economy. Getting ten percent of anyone's income is a pretty good bottom line for any corporation, doing it tax free takes faith. hahaha.

 

I don't by any means blame the brainwashed, delusional cultists for the misdeads of the fringe elements in their cults, but the correlation between true believer and the willingness to murder or maim in the name of whatever it is they believe in can not be denied. I feel bad for the good hearted vast majority of the people invested in these faith based religions. I call them cults because they are. The only difference between a cult and a religion is the religion is the one you may agree with while the cult is the one you don't believe in. 250 thousand gods created by men and generally each religious person only believes in one or 7 of them. The delusion that Zoroaster exists for instance is one we may agree with calling a delusional thought, or Zeus or the One eyed Crow up northern european way... pretty silly to believe in Athena these days, but if you really super hard core believe in Athena right now and that she talks to you, I think we can safely say you are delusional. 

 

Anywho, have a nice day everyone. More important things for me today. Cheers all.

[Playoff Beered]

17 hours ago, Ilunga said:

It's not the gotcha moment you think.

 

I do take insults to people I Iove/ loved personally. 

 

You can't even come up with original thoughts.

You keep posting the same quotes ad infinitum. 

Mocking and insults is all you add to this thread.

That speaks volumes as to what sort of person you are.

 

You claim this is just another discussion, yeah? If we were talking about ranking hockey players and someone told you that your pick for best player was delusional, would you be butt hurt about that words use? Even if your mom and dad also thought it was the same player?

 

The rest of your post is just you doing what you're accusing me of, by implying I'm a lesser person because I have a different point of view.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Master Mind]

16 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

And some people are so narrow minded that they don't see value unless it benefits their preconceived notions on a subject.

 

A text-based reply instead of another meme, I like it.

[Playoff Beered]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

Agreed. Hapless sheep in the flock, to borrow the term, are certainly not murderous nor do they generally condone it, however, looking at historical "Faith based" believers in a global broad stroke: Catholics have murdered for two thousand years to plant themselves a dominant 'faith' in global affairs. We are watching Hamas now murdering babies in the name of their god... and we have seen 'good christians' here in North America somehow justify murdering doctors for providing womens health services. 

In broad strokes the cults are generally murderous if it suits their purpose, which they all tend to point out is really Gods Plan, not theirs, despite gods plan changing depending on which cult you are talking to.

 

“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”

― Steven Weinberg

 

“Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

 

—Voltaire”

Edited October 13, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Provost]

I am a hardcore atheist, but don’t find it hard to like most theists.  More often than not they are decent folks trying to find community and meaning in life.

 

I try to find some grace (or a secular term for it) trying to imagine if someone really and truly believed in God and eternal damnation… if they had any love for fellow humans in their hearts they would have to try to proselytize to save other people from that fate.

 

That grace doesn’t extend to people who use their beliefs to justify harming others… nor does it stop me from telling they are wrong.  It just helps me not dislike them.

[Playoff Beered]

[RupertKBD]

4 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

For those who would like to censure the word delusional: I am open to changing to another term. 

 

What word can I use to suggest that folks who believe in the unprovable and supernatural stories we are discussing here in this thread, and believe it so hard and so fully as to support genocidal cults and even in some cases support the idea of murdering those who do not share the belief; what word or short sentence fragment would you use to describe their unshakable faith in the unknown and unproven if not 'delusional'. If we can find another term, I will be happy to use it to appease your delicate sensibilities. 

 

EDIT: Oh wait, i am probably not "allowed" to use the word cult either. 

 

I will rephrase in the way you want to impose upon me:

 

"These delightfully cognizant and wise upholders of the truth are members of a heavinly congregation of good doers."

 

See, when you stop me using some descriptiive words in the debate, the debate loses its original meaning entirely. 

I will go back to just using the simple form that leaves no ambiguity in my position: Delusional Cultists.

 

Persoanlly, I didn't see your use of the word delusional to mean all persons of faith. It seemed clear to me that you were referring to a particular type of person, who believes you will burn in hell because of your non-believer status....

 

Maybe I read that wrong....

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Hmm,

I use that term but accept the possibility of intelligent design. 

So in my case it may show some bias against the tales that people, even in this thread, are claiming are facts. Their reasoning being due to mass belief. 

 

So I use it a diss to the idea that religions tell us about a 'G'od, as they have as much merit as fairy tales.

 

But they aren't fairy tales, they are allegories. 

Big difference.

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

You claim this is just another discussion, yeah? If we were talking about ranking hockey players and someone told you that your pick for best player was delusional, would you be butt hurt about that words use? Even if your mom and dad also thought it was the same player?

 

The rest of your post is just you doing what you're accusing me of, by implying I'm a lesser person because I have a different point of view.

 

Where I have stated you are a lesser person ?

I haven't.

Neither have I implied it.

I have consistently stated I respect peoples right to believe or disbelieve. 

 

What I have stated is that you continually mock people who do believe, that is a fact.

That you also post the same quotes ad finitum, that is also a fact.

You did this in the thread on the old board, and you continue to do it in this thread.

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

 

That's fair.

 

I'll try to park that term if I come across a believer that is open to admit that faith is the core of thier beliefs and not facts.

 

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen"

 

That said, like you and I do on occasion, there can be communication that perhaps requires calmer, thicker skin when claims of creationism, or an all knowing, all seeing, long beareded, sit on a cloud, type things are being presented. 

 

I would have to go back through the thread, however even my religious teachers back in school never claimed god was a long bearded being sitting on a cloud.

 

And every religious person I know claims belief is a matter of faith.

[Bob Long]

23 hours ago, Ilunga said:

And none of you have addressed the fact that as I have pointed out science and religion can coexist.

Newton I wonder if him being " delusional "  contributed to him formulating the theory of gravity.

Galileo, Kepler.

 

As this article states that was then we know more about the world what about know  ?

 

https://www.magiscenter.com/blog/23-famous-scientists-who-are-not-atheists

 

Want to tell these Nobel prize winners they are delusional ? 

 

Damn, good to be that delusional that your work in science is rewarded with a Nobel prize.

 

I think I have but maybe it wasn't memorable

 

Faith and science explore two things that cannot intersect. There is no conflict between them as there cannot be.

 

Conflict only emerges when faith is used for control of others.

[StrayDog]

32 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

But they aren't fairy tales, they are allegories. 

Big difference.

All fairy tales are allegories. That was how they started; to teach children what would happen if you strayed (either ethically or literally), which is why the original tales are so gruesome. 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

I think I have but maybe it wasn't memorable

 

Faith and science explore two things that cannot intersect. There is no conflict between them as there cannot be.

 

Conflict only emerges when faith is used for control of others.

 

I totally agree Jim, you will always be Jim to me. 

That makes you memorable to me. 

 

As I have already stated, if you took religion away people would invent another form of control. 

 

Again, all the religious people I know experience the same level of freedom I do. 

No one forces them to do anything.

4 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

All fairy tales are allegories. That was how they started; to teach children what would happen if you strayed (either ethically or literally), which is why the original tales are so gruesome. 

 

One big difference between a fairy tale and an allegory.

A fairy tale tells the story of one of two people.

The allegory tells the story of an entire community.

[bishopshodan]

57 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

But they aren't fairy tales, they are allegories. 

Big difference.

 

Thanks I learned something...though I did say..'as much merit' as fairy tales.

 

 

But is it a big difference ..?

 

Arn't fairytails filled with myths and allegories?

[Sharpshooter]

28 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

-snip-

 

One big difference between a fairy tale and an allegory.

 

A fairy tale tells the story of one of two people.

 

The allegory tells the story of an entire community.

Snow White AND The Seven Dwarfs. 

 

[bishopshodan]

44 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I would have to go back through the thread, however even my religious teachers back in school never claimed god was a long bearded being sitting on a cloud.

 

And every religious person I know claims belief is a matter of faith.

 

Dont need to  

I siad ' claims of creationism, or an all knowing, all seeing, long beareded, sit on a cloud, type things'

 

I was being silly and genreal speaking...that's why I said 'type things' because I find the idea of creation wild and the hollywood santa clausesq view of heaven is ...clouds, bearded guy etc...

 

[Sharpshooter]

8 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Thanks I learned something...though I did say..'as much merit' as fairy tales.

 

 

But is it a big difference ..?

 

Arn't fairytails filled with myths and allegories?

The Bible is a collection of fairytales, allegories, metaphors, etc, and many of them aren’t even original ones, but stolen or repurposed ones. 
 

Even Jesus isn’t an original character or story. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

11 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Thanks I learned something...though I did say..'as much merit' as fairy tales.

 

 

But is it a big difference ..?

 

Arn't fairytails filled with myths and allegories?

 

Refer to my reply to stray dog. 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Snow White AND The Seven Dwarfs. 

 

 

Big community, right ?

[Ilunga]

7 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

The Bible is a collection of fairytales, allegories, metaphors, etc, and many of them aren’t even original ones, but stolen or repurposed ones. 
 

Even Jesus isn’t an original character or story. 

 

 

 

Which has been pointed out by myself going way back to the original thread on the old board.  

 

People who like to mock them call them fairy tales, people who who recognise them for what they are call them metaphors/ allegories.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

The Bible is a collection of fairytales, allegories, metaphors,

etc, and many of them aren’t even original ones, but stolen or repurposed ones. 
 

Even Jesus isn’t an original character or story. 
 

 

Yup. The Gita has a Jesus character in Krishna.