Ilunga Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 11 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said: According to the Encyclopedia of Wars, out of all 1,763 known/recorded historical conflicts, 121, or 6.87%, had religion as their primary cause.[6] Matthew White's The Great Big Book of Horrible Things gives religion as the primary cause of 11 of the world's 100 deadliest atrocities.[7][8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war#References By those very statistics religion has caused a small percentage of the wars our species has fought. However all wars are stupid for whatever reason they are caused, religion included. In the Propagandi song Haile Selassie Up your Arse, which I believe you will like, A few lines F#ck Zionism F#ck Militarism F#ck Americanism F#ck Nationalism F#ck Religion It's Nationalism that I believe is the most devisive. Until we start realising that we are all human beings sharing this planet together, then we are still going to fight these stupid wars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playoff Beered Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ilunga said: By those very statistics religion has caused a small percentage of the wars our species has fought. However all wars are stupid for whatever reason they are caused, religion included. In the Propagandi song Haile Selassie Up your Arse, which I believe you will like, A few lines F#ck Zionism F#ck Militarism F#ck Americanism F#ck Nationalism F#ck Religion It's Nationalism that I believe is the most devisive. Until we start realising that we are all human beings sharing this planet together, then we are still going to fight these stupid wars. 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" Samuel Adams Ever read Asimov? I'm watching the second season of Foundation, pretty good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 Just now, Playoff Beered said: 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" Samuel Adams Ever read Asimov? I'm watching the second season of Foundation, pretty good. " Cut my teeth " on the Foundation series. Liked them better than the Robot series. Big Sci Fi reader Highly recommend P.J.Hamiltons Nights Dawn trilogy, Brilliant. His Void Trilogy is really good as well Kevin J Andersons Saga of the Seven Suns is pretty good as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Ilunga said: Here you go, an athiest debunking your claim that religion/ " the book " causes so many wars. He does it with facts. https://medium.com/metaphor-hacker/guns-glory-and-greed-most-wars-were-not-caused-by-religion-but-they-werent-prevented-by-it-a3002aee387f I love facts. Lol the guy claims religion doesn't even exists. Makes sense why he would write a paper such as this. I'm also always a huge fan of papers written with 2 references, one being wiki and one being a broken link to a website. If you want to answer the actual questions I asked in my post, go ahead. But if you're just gonna nitpick about the semantics I used, don't bother. My opinion on what religion makes people do to other people hasn't change at all with that article. Edited September 20, 2023 by MeanSeanBean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Playoff Beered said: According to the Encyclopedia of Wars, out of all 1,763 known/recorded historical conflicts, 121, or 6.87%, had religion as their primary cause.[6] Matthew White's The Great Big Book of Horrible Things gives religion as the primary cause of 11 of the world's 100 deadliest atrocities.[7][8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war#References 11/100 primary - how many after that used religion to support justifying the act? or maybe just as bad, thinking that the poor buggers who died in them, are in a "better place" and we can gloss over how bad war is? Edited September 20, 2023 by Bob Long 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 3 hours ago, Ilunga said: " Cut my teeth " on the Foundation series. Liked them better than the Robot series. Big Sci Fi reader Highly recommend P.J.Hamiltons Nights Dawn trilogy, Brilliant. His Void Trilogy is really good as well Kevin J Andersons Saga of the Seven Suns is pretty good as well. I've been saying for a few years now....this should be HBO's next Game of Thrones.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: 11/100 primary - how many after that used religion to support justifying the act? or maybe just as bad, thinking that the poor buggers who died in them, are in a "better place" and we can gloss over how bad war is? I'm aware of the statistics used and the book those numbers are written of. The same book states roughly 50% of wars primary cause is colonialism. By their same reasoning the residential schools would have been claimed under colonialism and not religion. While both are true, that's the type of semantics we are discussing when using number like this. I don't buy for a second that the colonial wars didn't have major religious motivations. Edited September 20, 2023 by MeanSeanBean 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said: I'm aware of the statistics used and the book those numbers are written of. The same book states over 50% of wars primary cause is colonialism. By their same reasoning the residential schools would have been claimed under colonialism and not religion. While both are true, that's the type of semantics we are discussing when using number like this. I don't buy for a second that the colonial wars didn't have major religious motivations. agreed on that for sure. If religion isn't the gear, it's the grease. I just always come back to the idea that personal spirituality doesn't lead to the same kinds of justifications that organized religion produces. I'm sure there are isolated examples of some personal beliefs going sideways, but it doesn't move entire nations to do bad things. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Ilunga said: I mostly use the words a being who created the elements that make up the Universe. Who created this being? The cosmological argument is a logical fallacy of circular reasoning. Even so, by saying this, you're admitting that you don't believe in a theistic God, so I guess this we agree on. 7 hours ago, Ilunga said: However let's stick to the word God. If you call yourself an athiest, you disbelieve a God exists, you don't know. That's the meaning of the word athiest. Incorrect. Atheism means without theism. It's not a disbelief but rather an abscence of belief. 7 hours ago, Ilunga said: To my knowledge there is no word that defines a person who knows a god does not exist. Does there have to be? Maybe we just go with 'philosopher'. 7 hours ago, Ilunga said: With the information we currently have, it is unknowable to prove a god exists or he doesn't. This is where the burden of proof is on the one making the claim that God exists. Ancient peoples claimed it, and people still do. How do you prove something exists when there's no evidence? The answer is you can't, which is why no one ever has. But to then follow up with the failure of proving God exists with, "Well, you can't prove that God doesn't exist" is simply falling into another logical fallacy that proves nothing other than said person has no more options. 7 hours ago, Ilunga said: What defines reality is a far more important question in my opinion. This is one of many good articles about how our brains process information, relies on evolutionary traits like intuition and how we can misperceive things https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/finding-purpose/202008/how-do-we-know-what-is-real Granted, we can only go off the reality that we can perceive, and it can sometimes be wrong or misguided. Our objectivity of the universe is the best we can do at the moment, but it sure is serving us well, isn't it? I mean, look at what we've accomplished as a species. The fact that we can do what we've done, even while knowing that our perception can be wrong at times, merely adds more credibility to the fact that we use probabilities to acquire knowledge and not certainty. In fact, the argument that "our perception can be wrong" doesn't hold much weight when discussing something such as "does God [the one that ancient peoples came up with] exist", as it's clear that a human will never truly walk on water, or turn water into wine, or that a bearded man isn't watching over us and cherry picking who he saves and who he doesnt. We would never be agnostic on so many things myths from generations ago, but for some reason, capital g God is a myth that we just can't let go of and accept that there is more to explore and learn, and as we do, we won't learn that these things mentioned are true, because these myths are so far gone on the scale of probability to ever surprise us. 7 hours ago, Ilunga said: Nothing passive aggressive about me. I have never insulted/ abused anyone. It's never personal. As far as I am concerned this interacting on this forum is just like interacting with anyone, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This means treat others with dignity and respect, especially when you don't agree with them. I guess I'm wondering why mention these things impromtu in the first place unless they're being directed at the people you're saying it to? Since we dont agree, do you think I'm not treating you with dignity and respect? Edit: fwiw, if you ever feel like anything I say is personal, please let me know directly so I can clarify. The last thing I want it for someone discussing such big a topic to take something personally. These are ideas im challenging, not the person Edited September 20, 2023 by Jester13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 7 hours ago, Ilunga said: So if a god does exist he is responsible for all the bad stuff that has happened/ happens in the world ? Not any of the good stuff ? Ever heard of free will ? Taking responsibility for your actions ? Ever heard that bad sh!t happens no matter how good you are ? I am going through the worst time in my life and I don't blame a god that may or may not exist. I don't even hold any real anger to the person who is causing that pain. What's the point ? Anger only hurts me. Free will does not exist. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 4 minutes ago, Jester13 said: Free will does not exist. Rush chooses Free Will. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 Some people believe in an all powerful all knowing god.- like in the bible or koran or various other religions Yet small group of those people believe it is up to them to beat up and kill people that don't believe, and follow the 'teachings' of their all powerful all knowing god. Why are some people so stupid as to believe an all powerful, all knowing god needs their help? This god allegedly created the heavens, the earth, everything on earth, down to the tiny, tiny spider mite. But some people think that god needs them get things done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said: Rush chooses Free Will. If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 4 hours ago, Ilunga said: Wether we like it or not something inside the majority of human beings crave a " spiritual belief " that manifests itself as them being religious. To some of them it is their faith, others being part of a community. Religion has/ is the cause of both good and bad. It has had a negative impact on my life. At our best we are an incredible species, that includes some religious people. At our worst, well you know, without being abusive we are pretty messed up, and that also includes some religious people. What I believe we, as a species and individuals should do is look for what we have in common, not what we don't. We will always find what we are looking for. Humans are sentient beings and thus fear death. This is why so many people "believe" in a creator rather being okay with the unknown and the fact that death is on the horizon. Here's a question foe you: why believe in any kind of creator? 3 minutes ago, Gurn said: If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. I'm with thinkers like Sam Harris, who argues that free will is an illusion in the sense that our choices and actions are ultimately determined by factors beyond our control. Sam's view is that everything we do is the result of a combination of genetic, environmental, and neurological influences. Our conscious sense of making choices is merely an after-the-fact rationalization of events that have already been set in motion by these underlying factors (i.e. we are not truly free to make choices independent of these deterministic influences, so traditional beliefs of free will are incompatible with our understanding of science and causality). 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, Jester13 said: I'm with thinkers like Sam Harris, who argues that free will is an illusion in the sense that our choices and actions are ultimately determined by factors beyond our control. Sam's view is that everything we do is the result of a combination of genetic, environmental, and neurological influences. Our conscious sense of making choices is merely an after-the-fact rationalization of events that have already been set in motion by these underlying factors (i.e. we are not truly free to make choices independent of these deterministic influences, so traditional beliefs of free will are incompatible with our understanding of science and causality). So I react and think the way I do, because my parents and everyone, as well as everything, around me 'trained' me to act and think in a certain way? And if I 'rise' above that type of thinking; it is only because I was raised and taught that I could? Which actually means I'm still just responding to stimuli as I was previously taught? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 54 minutes ago, Jester13 said: Free will does not exist. Oh, you start with that quantum mechanics stuff and you're gonna get me all hot and bothered. Anyway, you people saying that there is no god, or that there is one, are wrong. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattWN Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 9 hours ago, Ilunga said: So if a god does exist he is responsible for all the bad stuff that has happened/ happens in the world ? Not any of the good stuff ? Ever heard of free will ? Taking responsibility for your actions ? Ever heard that bad sh!t happens no matter how good you are ? I am going through the worst time in my life and I don't blame a god that may or may not exist. I don't even hold any real anger to the person who is causing that pain. What's the point ? Anger only hurts me. If there was a god, why wouldn't he have just made a world without pain and suffering? Free willl? Taking responsibility for your actions? Please explain that to families with kids dying of cancer. That was gods idea, not the poor childs. Sure bad shit happens, but the point is that it didn't have to happen. The fact that this god created a world with this much pain and suffering goes to show if he exists, he's a psychopath and deserves no respect. You're going through the wost time in your life? Ok, thats gods plan. You're fine. Enjoy. Love from God. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, bishopshodan said: Oh, you start with that quantum mechanics stuff and you're gonna get me all hot and bothered. Anyway, you people saying that there is no god, or that there is one, are wrong. no lets go there. I'm serious, there's some very cool ideas there about the nature of time, entanglement, etc. that plays into these discussions. I've been reading a lot lately about whether or not the past still exists, and apparently the math says yes. Or at least a very strong maybe. Having lost 3 close family members in the last 3 years, this comforts me a lot more than some evangelical notion of heaven and hell. Block universe theory: https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-09-02/block-universe-theory-time-past-present-future-travel/10178386 Edited September 20, 2023 by Bob Long 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupertKBD Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 1 hour ago, MattWN said: If there was a god, why wouldn't he have just made a world without pain and suffering? Free willl? Taking responsibility for your actions? Please explain that to families with kids dying of cancer. That was gods idea, not the poor childs. Sure bad shit happens, but the point is that it didn't have to happen. The fact that this god created a world with this much pain and suffering goes to show if he exists, he's a psychopath and deserves no respect. You're going through the wost time in your life? Ok, thats gods plan. You're fine. Enjoy. Love from God. Yeah, this is the boat I'm in as well. The whole arbitrary nature of faith (as in your last two paragraphs) makes it just too hard for me to believe. Why would a supposedly loving God allow a POS like Donald Trump to live a life of luxury and privilege for 80 years, while some poor child in Darfur lives in a constant state of fear and hunger? If there's a "plan" there, it sucks. The other argument I hear all the time is that our life on earth is meaningless, it's the afterlife that matters..... Okay, then WTF are we doing here? Why bother with any of it? In case you haven't noticed, the "bad guys" are usually people who grew up extremely disadvantaged. They had no choice but to join gangs, or steal....because they had no choice. And now they have to "repent for their wickedness", lest they spend eternity in the fires of Hell.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: no lets go there. I'm serious, there's some very cool ideas there about the nature of time, entanglement, etc. that plays into these discussions. I've been reading a lot lately about whether or not the past still exists, and apparently the math says yes. Or at least a very strong maybe. Having lost 3 close family members in the last 3 years, this comforts me a lot more than some evangelical notion of heaven and hell. Block universe theory: https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-09-02/block-universe-theory-time-past-present-future-travel/10178386 I was just talking to mum the other week about time. Lost Dad 10 years and 3 days ago. She gets sad, we all do. She believes in 'something', I mention dimensions and maybe there is another place... she frets that he might be lonely without us all. Damn, what happens to my face when I type about him? weird, some sort of perspiration from my eye balls. Anway, I tell her that we don't understand how time works or anything really. For dad it might have been just a few minutes until he sees her again. I picture him in a nice field like we had back on the farm in England, he simply turns around, sees her and says "There you are, this place is really nice. We should stay a while" 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: no lets go there. I'm serious, there's some very cool ideas there about the nature of time, entanglement, etc. that plays into these discussions. I've been reading a lot lately about whether or not the past still exists, and apparently the math says yes. Or at least a very strong maybe. Having lost 3 close family members in the last 3 years, this comforts me a lot more than some evangelical notion of heaven and hell. Block universe theory: https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-09-02/block-universe-theory-time-past-present-future-travel/10178386 Great article btw. Time really throws a wrench in this god convo. If it's not what we think it is ...what is forever/ eternity / infinity? The idea that it can be effected by gravity is also mind blowing. The movie Interstellar has a cool storyline about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattWN Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 The time theories are interesting, but without the technology to be able to properly explore the theory, we're left with our current reality of time. For the foreseeable future, the time we spend, is the time we get. So try to enjoy it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undrafted Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 4 hours ago, Jester13 said: Here's a question foe you: why believe in any kind of creator? As a non-believer, this is the part I've never understood about those who do believe. Why do people need this strange (to me) belief? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 42 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: I was just talking to mum the other week about time. Lost Dad 10 years and 3 days ago. She gets sad, we all do. She believes in 'something', I mention dimensions and maybe there is another place... she frets that he might be lonely without us all. Damn, what happens to my face when I type about him? weird, some sort of perspiration from my eye balls. Anway, I tell her that we don't understand how time works or anything really. For dad it might have been just a few minutes until he sees her again. I picture him in a nice field like we had back on the farm in England, he simply turns around, sees her and says "There you are, this place is really nice. We should stay a while" thats a nice image. I can't look at pics of my dad yet, it's too soon. What I like about what physics and math teach us - and it does teach us which is an important difference from faith - is that some pretty amazing things are possible. Is block theory correct? we may never know, but at least its based in thinking that has been tested to be true. 30 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: Great article btw. Time really throws a wrench in this god convo. If it's not what we think it is ...what is forever/ eternity / infinity? The idea that it can be effected by gravity is also mind blowing. The movie Interstellar has a cool storyline about that. yeah it gets the old noodle working. Time permanence is compelling. If all of our past is still there, all of the good and bad moments are there too. So for some that will be good, others not so much. None of it is easy but what I like about going down the physics route is it at least has a chance of being correct. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattWN Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 12 minutes ago, undrafted said: As a non-believer, this is the part I've never understood about those who do believe. Why do people need this strange (to me) belief? Typically it's because of indoctrination from a very young age. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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