The God Thread

[MattWN]

14 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

thats a nice image. I can't look at pics of my dad yet, it's too soon. 

What I like about what physics and math teach us - and it does teach us which is an important difference from faith - is that some pretty amazing things are possible. Is block theory correct? we may never know, but at least its based in thinking that has been tested to be true. 

yeah it gets the old noodle working.  

Time permanence is compelling. If all of our past is still there, all of the good and bad moments are there too. So for some that will be good, others not so much. None of it is easy but what I like about going down the physics route is it at least has a chance of being correct. 

 

Unrelated, but I saw a reel (I know) about how at the end of your life, the amount of money you would pay/the things you would give up just to go back and experience one of those bad days with the people you love/lost. 

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, MattWN said:

Unrelated, but I saw a reel (I know) about how at the end of your life, the amount of money you would pay/the things you would give up just to go back and experience one of those bad days with the people you love/lost. 

 

I'd give up a lot. But I also don't have many regrets, I've always tried to make sure that I spent good time with people I care about. Some people give up too much in pursuit of careers, etc. and think somehow you're going to gain that all back down the road. Doesn't work that way. 

[MattWN]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

I'd give up a lot. But I also don't have many regrets, I've always tried to make sure that I spent good time with people I care about. Some people give up too much in pursuit of careers, etc. and think somehow you're going to gain that all back down the road. Doesn't work that way. 

100% You gotta maximize the time you have you have.  

 

I think more so than redoing past mistakes, the idea of just being able to relive, and revisit memories would be worth the price. For me, I can't imagine anything I'd rather do when I'm old and fragile, than to be able to hold my baby one more time. 

[RWMc1]

From the Scottish Holy book.

 

 

 

Book of Creation
Table of Chapters
CRT:1:1 – CRT:1:23 Chapter One – Creation
CRT:2:1 – CRT:2:23 Chapter Two – The Birth of Man
CRT:3:1 – CRT:3:15 Chapter Three – Destruction and Re-Creation
CRT:4:1 – CRT:4:19 Chapter Four – Affliction of God
CRT:5:1 – CRT:5:47 Chapter Five – In the Beginning
CRT:6:1 – CRT:6:9 Chapter Six – Dadam And Lewid
CRT:7:1 – CRT:7:35 Chapter Seven – Herthew, Son of the Firstfather
CRT:8:1 – CRT:8:24 Chapter Eight – Gwineva
Chapter One – Creation
CRT:1:1 Mortal knowledge is circumscribed by mortal ignorance, and
mortal comprehension is circumscribed by spiritual reality. It is unwise for
mortal man to attempt the understanding of that, which is beyond his
conception, for there lies the road to disbelief and madness. Yet, man is man
and ever fated to reach out beyond himself, striving to attain things which
always just elude his grasp. So in his frustration, he replaces the dimly seen
incomprehensible with things within his understanding. If these things but
poorly reflect reality, then is not the reflection of reality, distorted though it
maybe, of greater value than no reflection at all?
CRT:1:2 There are no true beginnings on Earth; for here, all is effect, the ultimate cause being elsewhere. For who among men can say which came
first, the seed or the plant? Yet in truth, it is neither, for something neither
seed nor plant preceded both, and that thing was also preceded by something
else. Always there are ancestors back to the beginning, and back beyond that,
there is only God. This, then, is how these things were told in The Great
Book of The Sons of Fire.
CRT:1:3 Before the beginning, there was only one consciousness, that of
The Eternal One whose nature cannot be expressed in words. It was The One
Sole Spirit, The Self Generator, which cannot diminish, The Unknown,
Unknowable One brooding solitary in profound pregnant silence.
CRT:1:4 The name which is uttered cannot be that of this Great Being
who, remaining nameless, is the beginning and the end, beyond time, beyond
the reach of mortals, and we in our simplicity call it God.
CRT:1:5 He who preceded all existed alone in His strange abode of
uncreated light, which remains ever unextinguishable, and no understandable
eye can ever behold it. The pulsating draughts of the eternal life light in His
keeping were not yet loosed. He knew Himself alone; He was uncontrasted,
unable to manifest in nothingness, for all within His Being was unexpressed
potential.

 

[undrafted]

41 minutes ago, MattWN said:

Typically it's because of indoctrination from a very young age. 

I don't think that's entirely correct: many people "find God/religion" as adults and many of those are the more fervent than those raised in a religion.  Sure, these people often do so during personal crises, but it doesn't really explain why religion is the thing they grasp onto during those crises.

[RWMc1]

Totally off topic, I read something that totally changed my perspective when I was fairly young.

 

I was reading a story about frogs. Some biologists noticed that frogs in a region with edible flies and toxic inedible flies always ate one and avoided the other. They were wondering how a creature with such limited senses could distinguish the difference. They wired up the brains of some and observed. It turns out that the toxic flies didn't even register on the frogs brains. Just a moment that made me start thinking about our limitations. It opened up my mind to possibilities.

[RupertKBD]

2 minutes ago, RWMc1 said:

Totally off topic, I read something that totally changed my perspective when I was fairly young.

 

I was reading a story about frogs. Some biologists noticed that frogs in a region with edible flies and toxic inedible flies always ate one and avoided the other. They were wondering how a creature with such limited senses could distinguish the difference. They wired up the brains of some and observed. It turns out that the toxic flies didn't even register on the frogs brains. Just a moment that made me start thinking about our limitations. It opened up my mind to possibilities.

 

I experience something similar with Flames fans....

[MattWN]

16 minutes ago, undrafted said:

I don't think that's entirely correct: many people "find God/religion" as adults and many of those are the more fervent than those raised in a religion.  Sure, these people often do so during personal crises, but it doesn't really explain why religion is the thing they grasp onto during those crises.

Ok, so desperate people and children. Got it. 

 

Sure it explains it. People in crisis looking for any sort of comfort, why not take a stab at believing in a man in the sky, who can cure whatever ails you. I can see the appeal. 

 

Let's not ignore the fact that places like the bible belt in the USA have some of the worst educated people in the country. 

 

So yeah.. Desperate people. Children. The uneducated. Basically the trifecta.

Edited September 20, 2023 by MattWN

[RupertKBD]

4 minutes ago, MattWN said:

Ok, so desperate people and children. Got it. 

 

Sure it explains it. People in crisis looking for any sort of comfort, why not take a stab at believing in a man in the sky, who can cure whatever ails you. I can see the appeal. 

 

Let's not ignore the fact that places like the bible belt in the USA have some of the worst educated people in the country. 

 

So yeah.. Desperate people. Children. The uneducated. Basically the trifecta.

 

Sure this stuff happens....but I think you were correct with your earlier statement. The vast majority of religious people were born into it.

 

Some of us managed to get out, but a huge percentage of people are religious because their daddy was religious....and his daddy before him....and his daddy before him...

[bishopshodan]

9 minutes ago, RWMc1 said:

Totally off topic, I read something that totally changed my perspective when I was fairly young.

 

I was reading a story about frogs. Some biologists noticed that frogs in a region with edible flies and toxic inedible flies always ate one and avoided the other. They were wondering how a creature with such limited senses could distinguish the difference. They wired up the brains of some and observed. It turns out that the toxic flies didn't even register on the frogs brains. Just a moment that made me start thinking about our limitations. It opened up my mind to possibilities.

Love this stuff.

 

Or cellular memory ( if that's the term)

My dog is a Blue Heeler.

Named because they control livestock by nipping at their heels. They are rewarded for this activity so they do it on command. 

How do the new pups know how to do it without ever being taught? 

We had to train it out of our dog. She never worked a field but it is her instinct if she wants to move something/someone to use this trick. A trick that was, if not taught, at least rewarded behavior many generations before my dog Tess came along. Now all Blueheelers can just do it. 

 

Back on what you mentioned. Not seeing/registering something...
Dark Matter. I hear it takes up most of everything but we can only infer that it is there. 

 

[UnkNuk]

4 hours ago, MattWN said:

If there was a god, why wouldn't he have just made a world without pain and suffering?

 

Free willl? Taking responsibility for your actions? Please explain that to families with kids dying of cancer. That was gods idea, not the poor childs.

Sure bad shit happens, but the point is that it didn't have to happen. The fact that this god created a world with this much pain and suffering goes to show if he exists, he's a psychopath and deserves no respect. 

 

You're going through the wost time in your life? Ok, thats gods plan.

You're fine. Enjoy. Love from God.

 

One possible scenario I've read goes something like this:   

 

God is everything,  Everything is God.  Including ourselves.  God has incarnated Itself into each one of us and then forgotten that It has done so.  So each one of us exists thinking that we are this separate being confronted by an alien world 'out there'.  But we're actually different manifestations of God.  So anything that happens is just God doing it to God.

 

So if a child dies of a disease, it's God experiencing what it's like to be a child dying of a disease.

 

If a person murders another person, it's God experiencing what it's like to be a murderer and what it's like to be a person who is murdered.

 

And so on.  Everything that happens is God experiencing all these different types of experience.  And, at the end, God will come back to Itself and say:  "Well, that was interesting.  Now what shall I do?".

 

I think this scenario is a possibility.

 

But I agree with those who say we really don't know what the story is with God.

[RWMc1]

Anyone else here ponder the wave vs particle conundrum?

 

I was thinking that if there are multiple universes, what if we inhabit two universes which happen to overlap. If so, then what happens when they separate? Just more weird things that I think about.

[StrayDog]

3 hours ago, UnkNuk said:

 

One possible scenario I've read goes something like this:   

 

God is everything,  Everything is God.  Including ourselves.  God has incarnated Itself into each one of us and then forgotten that It has done so.  So each one of us exists thinking that we are this separate being confronted by an alien world 'out there'.  But we're actually different manifestations of God.  So anything that happens is just God doing it to God.

 

So if a child dies of a disease, it's God experiencing what it's like to be a child dying of a disease.

 

If a person murders another person, it's God experiencing what it's like to be a murderer and what it's like to be a person who is murdered.

 

And so on.  Everything that happens is God experiencing all these different types of experience.  And, at the end, God will come back to Itself and say:  "Well, that was interesting.  Now what shall I do?".

 

I think this scenario is a possibility.

 

But I agree with those who say we really don't know what the story is with God.

If that the case, exactly how many times does God need to experience such things? Once isn't enough that he needs to repeat it ad nauseum...? 

At that point God is a sociopathic asshole

[UnkNuk]

2 hours ago, StrayDog said:

If that the case, exactly how many times does God need to experience such things? Once isn't enough that he needs to repeat it ad nauseum...? 

 

Good question.  

 

But since each of us is, in some way, unique, each life experience is unique.  And since, in this theory, God forgets it is God when it incarnates as each one of us, the experiences continue to be ever new.

 

After all, if God is eternal, It has to have some way of passing the time.

 

 

[UnkNuk]

Philosopher Alan Watts version of the 'God is each one of us' theory:

 

 

[Playoff Beered]

 

 

[Jester13]

7 hours ago, undrafted said:

I don't think that's entirely correct: many people "find God/religion" as adults and many of those are the more fervent than those raised in a religion.  Sure, these people often do so during personal crises, but it doesn't really explain why religion is the thing they grasp onto during those crises.

 

Fear of death mixed with a lack of reasoning?

 

When people go through something emotionally tough, it's very hard for some people to move their thoughts out of their emotional (amygdala) brain and into their thinking (prefrontal cortex) brain to get through such events. Religion doesn't demand someone to use logic and reason but rather emotional belief. It can bring comfort to some, but it also has the potential to hide trauma and hurt rather than overcome it. 

[RWMc1]

 

[Ilunga]

17 hours ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Lol the guy claims religion doesn't even exists. Makes sense why he would write a paper such as this. I'm also always a huge fan of papers written with 2 references, one being wiki and one being a broken link to a website. 

If you want to answer the actual questions I asked in my post, go ahead. But if you're just gonna nitpick about the semantics I used, don't bother. My opinion on what religion makes people do to other people hasn't change at all with that article. 

 

He is an " old school " athiest.

As he stated, he did years of background research to come to that conclusion. 

 

As PB has posted from his source the Encyclopaedia of Wars, only 6 percent, 121 out of the over 1,763 wars had religion as their primary cause.

 

11 of the biggest 100. 

 

A very small percentage.

 

So have you researched this subject, can provide facts that religion is the cause of most wars. 

 

And what about all the good religious people have done/ do ?

Or do you just focus on the bad ? 

 

My folks were very religious.

They donated much of their money and more importantly their time to help others.

So did the members of their congregation. 

 

Religion doesn't make people do anything.

Certain people twist the meanings of the allegories in the various religious texts for their own ends.

Most of the time this is to control others.

Then people make their own choices. 

 

Take for instance LGBTI people.

We just had a referendum about gay marriage a few years back.

Nearly all the religious people I know voted yes, my very religious mother was going to vote yes however she died before it was held.

The biggest group of people I know that voted no were bogans that weren't religious at all.

I used to argue with them about.

 

As I keep stating religious people are just like any other group of people, there are good to bad and everything in between amongst them. 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

17 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

I've been saying for a few years now....this should be HBO's next Game of Thrones....

 

I have still got to get my hands on the follow up trilogy you told me about.

 

The Saga of the Shadows.

 

Seriously Rupe you really should check out the Nights Dawn trilogy.

Best Sci Fi series I have ever read. 

Over a 1000 pages each book.

 

[Ilunga]

16 hours ago, Jester13 said:

Who created this being? The cosmological argument is a logical fallacy of circular reasoning. Even so, by saying this, you're admitting that you don't believe in a theistic God, so I guess this we agree on.

Incorrect. Atheism means without theism. It's not a disbelief but rather an abscence of belief.

Does there have to be? 

Maybe we just go with 'philosopher'.

This is where the burden of proof is on the one making the claim that God exists. Ancient peoples claimed it, and people still do. How do you prove something exists when there's no evidence? The answer is you can't, which is why no one ever has. But to then follow up with the failure of proving God exists with, "Well, you can't prove that God doesn't exist" is simply falling into another logical fallacy that proves nothing other than said person has no more options.

Granted, we can only go off the reality that we can perceive, and it can sometimes be wrong or misguided. Our objectivity of the universe is the best we can do at the moment, but it sure is serving us well, isn't it? I mean, look at what we've accomplished as a species. The fact that we can do what we've done, even while knowing that our perception can be wrong at times, merely adds more credibility to the fact that we use probabilities to acquire knowledge and not certainty.

In fact, the argument that "our perception can be wrong" doesn't hold much weight when discussing something such as "does God [the one that ancient peoples came up with] exist", as it's clear that a human will never truly walk on water, or turn water into wine, or that a bearded man isn't watching over us and cherry picking who he saves and who he doesnt. We would never be agnostic on so many things myths from generations ago, but for some reason, capital g God is a myth that we just can't let go of and accept that there is more to explore and learn, and as we do, we won't learn that these things mentioned are true, because these myths are so far gone on the scale of probability to ever surprise us.

I guess I'm wondering why mention these things impromtu in the first place unless they're being directed at the people you're saying it to? Since we dont agree, do you think I'm not treating you with dignity and respect?

Edit: fwiw, if you ever feel like anything I say is personal, please let me know directly so I can clarify. The last thing I want it for someone discussing such big a topic to take something personally. These are ideas im challenging, not the person

 

From the Oxford Dictionary

 

A disbelief or lack of belief in a God.

 

So there is an element of disbelief in the meaning of the word athiest.

 

That's a great post and you have touched upon points I have brought up.

 

You say god is a myth that we can't let go of and accept there is more to learn.

I can be only speak for the religious people I know well and they realise acquiring knowledge is an endless task, as my father taught me, Einstein's statement, the more I learn, the more I realise I don't know.

My parents were learning until they day they died, in their late 80's.

I think you are stereotyping religious people.

 

Who or what created the elements that caused the big bang ?

What was there before the big bang ?

Can you really comprehend the idea of infinity ?

Human beings cannot really grasp the idea of infinity.

I know I can't.

A God helps some people deal with that reality.

 

As you have stated, we can't prove their is a god and we can't not prove it.

Athiests use that argument about extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof.

Well to a religious person it is an extraordinary claim that a god does not exist, so they require extraordinary proof. 

 

Indeed your posts are respectful and insightful.

[Ilunga]

17 hours ago, Jester13 said:

Free will does not exist.

That is another great discussion we could have. 

 

What I do know is that I make decisions, that  sometimes end in me making a mistake.

I own those mistakes and try not to make the same mistake again. 

 

Since you brought up Epicurus it seems fitting that I mention the Lucretian Swerve....

[Ilunga]

17 hours ago, Gurn said:

Some people believe in an all powerful all knowing god.- like in the bible or koran or various other religions

Yet small group of those people believe it is up to them to beat up and kill people that don't believe, and follow the 'teachings' of their all powerful all knowing god.

Why are some people so stupid as to believe an all powerful, all knowing god needs their help?

 

This god allegedly created the heavens, the earth, everything on earth, down to the tiny, tiny spider mite.

But some people think that god needs them get things done.

 

Don't you think those people will find any reason to do those things ?

If we didn't have religion I believe those people would find other reasons to justify their actions.

That's what all humans do, religious or not.

[Ilunga]

17 hours ago, Jester13 said:

Humans are sentient beings and thus fear death. This is why so many people "believe" in a creator rather being okay with the unknown and the fact that death is on the horizon. 

Here's a question foe you: why believe in any kind of creator?

I'm with thinkers like Sam Harris, who argues that free will is an illusion in the sense that our choices and actions are ultimately determined by factors beyond our control. Sam's view is that everything we do is the result of a combination of genetic, environmental, and neurological influences. Our conscious sense of making choices is merely an after-the-fact rationalization of events that have already been set in motion by these underlying factors (i.e. we are not truly free to make choices independent of these deterministic influences, so traditional beliefs of free will are incompatible with our understanding of science and causality). 

I have read Free Will by Sam Harris.

It's a good read.

 

Fact of the matter this is another one of those eternal questions we have no answer for.

 

As I stated, I take responsibility for my actions.

I make decisions.

I am accountable for the consequences of those decisions. 

 

Death, dunno about fearing it.

They used to call me crazy Dave as an athlete.

If people knew how much effort went into being " crazy" they wouldn't have called me crazy.

 

ATM some days I would welcome it.

[Ilunga]

15 hours ago, MattWN said:

If there was a god, why wouldn't he have just made a world without pain and suffering?

 

Free willl? Taking responsibility for your actions? Please explain that to families with kids dying of cancer. That was gods idea, not the poor childs.

Sure bad shit happens, but the point is that it didn't have to happen. The fact that this god created a world with this much pain and suffering goes to show if he exists, he's a psychopath and deserves no respect. 

 

You're going through the wost time in your life? Ok, thats gods plan.

You're fine. Enjoy. Love from God.

 

So obviously you believe in God because you are blaming him for all the bad sh!t in the world.