The God Thread

[Inkidu]

3 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

The feeling of connection to people, oneself, the universe, etc. without attributing it to a supernatural deity or beliefs. 

 

Thanks

[Junkyard Dog]

5 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

The feeling of connection to people, oneself, the universe, etc. without attributing it to a supernatural deity or beliefs. 

 

Starting to sound like a Jedi...

 

 

 

[Jaimito]

8 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

The feeling of connection to people, oneself, the universe, etc. without attributing it to a supernatural deity or beliefs. 

Would be nice.  But it is so common among all cultures.  I think belief in an afterlife is what makes homo sapiens different among all animals.  People can be convinced to do things for it (pray, not eat certain things, circumcision, murder etc). 

 

This is part of the human biology, and this imaginative ability is also what allows collective and civilizations to function. Shared delusion is a powerful force, for better or worse. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Jaimito

[Jester13]

3 minutes ago, Jaimito said:

Would be nice.  But it is so common among all cultures.  I think belief in an afterlife is what makes homo sapiens different among all animals.  People can be convinced to do things for it (pray, not eat certain things, circumcision, murder etc). 

 

This is part of the human biology, and this imaginative ability is also what allows collective and civilizations to function. Shared delusion is a powerful force, for better or worse. 

It can certainly be argued that belief in a supernatural deity has helped the human species evolve, but as our knowledge has increased and closed the gaps on such beliefs, it's also possible to argue that we're beyond such belief and that it's no longer useful for our species but rather detrimental to our long-term existence.

 

Seems to me like it's a natural part of our evolution to now move past archaic thinking patterns and learn from the mistakes of such obsolete answers to what we previously couldn't explain. I mean, science is clearly a better path forward, no? Zeus used to be the lightning thrower, but now we know what lightning really is - why continue to live in such a delusion? If we did, we wouldn't be much of an educated society, so let's keep educating and see what the world would look like with fewer delusions. 

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Inkidu said:

Krauss pontificating on religion is about as meaninful as a physics book written by Sarah Palin. 

At least Krauss is respected in a field, any field, not so much the Lady who can see Russia from her kitchen window, you betcha!

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

Sounds to me like you're coming around to realizing that the universe can instill a spiritual sense of awe without the need to attribute it to a deity. 

 

Coming around ?

 

I have realised this since I first gazed up at the stars.

 

[Ilunga]

40 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

It can certainly be argued that belief in a supernatural deity has helped the human species evolve, but as our knowledge has increased and closed the gaps on such beliefs, it's also possible to argue that we're beyond such belief and that it's no longer useful for our species but rather detrimental to our long-term existence.

 

Seems to me like it's a natural part of our evolution to now move past archaic thinking patterns and learn from the mistakes of such obsolete answers to what we previously couldn't explain. I mean, science is clearly a better path forward, no? Zeus used to be the lightning thrower, but now we know what lightning really is - why continue to live in such a delusion? If we did, we wouldn't be much of an educated society, so let's keep educating and see what the world would look like with fewer delusions. 

 

That's all fine and good however what replaces the community that a shared sense of belief brings.

After my father died there was a number of women in mums congregation whose husband's had died, they all looked after each other, support network.

This is only one of the good things mums congregation did.

[Inkidu]

14 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

At least Krauss is respected in a field, any field, not so much the Lady who can see Russia from her kitchen window, you betcha!

 

I've seen enough of him and Dawkins to say they should stay in their lane. Hitchens too, when he was around. They have little or no spiritual insight. 

 

[Optimist Prime]

4 minutes ago, Inkidu said:

 

I've seen enough of him and Dawkins to say they should stay in their lane. Hitchens too, when he was around. They have little or no spiritual insight. 

 

Hitch was my favourite articler and one of my favourite authors before he passed of cancer. 

[Optimist Prime]

Christopher Hitchens was literally the last Devil's Advocate at the Vatican. They requested he fill the role for the beatification of Mother Theresa and he did such a good job they almost couldn't 'in good faith' go ahead and move her forward on the path to sainthood. The Vatican abolished the role shortly after that. 

An incredibly talented and gifted writer, I am a little put off by his early life attraction to Communism, but the body of work is overwhelmingly well done and a peck above his peers. 

 

 

[Inkidu]

5 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Hitch was my favourite articler and one of my favourite authors before he passed of cancer. 

Yes, very entertaining. Krauss always just rubbed me the wrong way. 

 

[Jaimito]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

It can certainly be argued that belief in a supernatural deity has helped the human species evolve, but as our knowledge has increased and closed the gaps on such beliefs, it's also possible to argue that we're beyond such belief and that it's no longer useful for our species but rather detrimental to our long-term existence.

 

Seems to me like it's a natural part of our evolution to now move past archaic thinking patterns and learn from the mistakes of such obsolete answers to what we previously couldn't explain. I mean, science is clearly a better path forward, no? Zeus used to be the lightning thrower, but now we know what lightning really is - why continue to live in such a delusion? If we did, we wouldn't be much of an educated society, so let's keep educating and see what the world would look like with fewer delusions. 

 

Despite the rapid advances in science and technology in the last couple of centuries, the vast majority of humanity is not scientific literate or able to think critically. 

This is one of the reasons that social media and Internet actually made disinformation easier, and the whole society seems dumber every yr. 

 

It's bit sad to think about it.  But I rather live in this era than say, 100 yrs ago. 

[Optimist Prime]

8 minutes ago, Inkidu said:

Yes, very entertaining. Krauss always just rubbed me the wrong way. 

 

well, lets just say none of them aren't nerds. hehehe. He sort of rubs me wrong too but he isn't incorrect. What did they say just last week..some democrat in the us congress ssaid "Gaetz isn't wrong, he is just an a**hole" that made me chuckle

[Inkidu]

5 minutes ago, Jaimito said:

 

Despite the rapid advances in science and technology in the last couple of centuries, the vast majority of humanity is not scientific literate or able to think critically. 

This is one of the reasons that social media and Internet actually made disinformation easier, and the whole society seems dumber every yr. 

 

It's bit sad to think about it.  But I rather live in this era than say, 100 yrs ago. 

 

I think it's because a scientific mind -- a sense of fact --  is an endowment not an acquirement. I believe spiritual insight is too, as is moral insight.

These three inalienables are not distributed equally or in equal measure. 

If any one of these is overdeveloped relative to the others, they become a menace. 

Hey, have you ever heard of Paul Feyereband? I was looking for a quote I remember but couldn't find it, unfortunately, but he's worth checking out. 

 

[Ilunga]

42 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Christopher Hitchens was literally the last Devil's Advocate at the Vatican. They requested he fill the role for the beatification of Mother Theresa and he did such a good job they almost couldn't 'in good faith' go ahead and move her forward on the path to sainthood. The Vatican abolished the role shortly after that. 

An incredibly talented and gifted writer, I am a little put off by his early life attraction to Communism, but the body of work is overwhelmingly well done and a peck above his peers. 

 

 

 

When I first read the the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital as an ideological teenager I thought this is the answer.

 

Later I came to realise that it, like most other economic/ social theories doesn't take human nature into account.

 

Wolves and sheep my friend.

[Ilunga]

38 minutes ago, Jaimito said:

 

Despite the rapid advances in science and technology in the last couple of centuries, the vast majority of humanity is not scientific literate or able to think critically. 

This is one of the reasons that social media and Internet actually made disinformation easier, and the whole society seems dumber every yr. 

 

It's bit sad to think about it.  But I rather live in this era than say, 100 yrs ago. 

 

100 years ago life for " average" people like us was a struggle.

We forget how good we have it.

My father told me stories about growing up in the depression in England, living on a few spuds a day for periods at a time.

Getting some bread and cheese was like a powder day.

Mum, who lived in Australia, while her family was dirt poor, they lived on a farm, they could grow some food.

[4petesake]

30 minutes ago, Inkidu said:

 

I think it's because a scientific mind -- a sense of fact --  is an endowment not an acquirement. I believe spiritual insight is too, as is moral insight.

These three inalienables are not distributed equally or in equal measure. 

If any one of these is overdeveloped relative to the others, they become a menace. 

Hey, have you ever heard of Paul Feyereband? I was looking for a quote I remember but couldn't find it, unfortunately, but he's worth checking out. 

 

 

Reading about him and came across this quote when talking about science , though I don’t know if it came directly from him.

”The human compulsion to find absolute truths, no matter how noble it may be, often culminates in tyranny.”

 

I prefer  John Green’s “Truth resists simplicity” for most topics, this included.

 

 

 

[Jester13]

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

That's all fine and good however what replaces the community that a shared sense of belief brings.

After my father died there was a number of women in mums congregation whose husband's had died, they all looked after each other, support network.

This is only one of the good things mums congregation did.

You think community is only derived from belief?

 

I don't. Heck, we all have a sense in communtiy as Canucks fans.

7 hours ago, Inkidu said:

 

I've seen enough of him and Dawkins to say they should stay in their lane. Hitchens too, when he was around. They have little or no spiritual insight. 

 

If you think Hitch and/or Dawkins didn't/don't have any spiritual insight, you're off base, my friend. 

7 hours ago, Inkidu said:

Yes, very entertaining. Krauss always just rubbed me the wrong way. 

 

He's a little bit of a slimeball. 

7 hours ago, Jaimito said:

 

Despite the rapid advances in science and technology in the last couple of centuries, the vast majority of humanity is not scientific literate or able to think critically. 

This is one of the reasons that social media and Internet actually made disinformation easier, and the whole society seems dumber every yr. 

 

It's bit sad to think about it.  But I rather live in this era than say, 100 yrs ago. 

Agreed, but let's keep focusing on ridding ourselves of delusion, whether faith, political ideology, or the like, and continue advancing the human condition and improving our species and the world. I mean, really, it's not despite scientific advancement that things have gotten better but rather because of. With more awareness comes more knowledge, and with more knowledge comes more wisdom, guiding humanity towards a future where harmony and understanding prevail. 

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

You think community is only derived from belief?

 

I don't. Heck, we all have a sense in communtiy as Canucks fans.

If you think Hitch and/or Dawkins didn't/don't have any spiritual insight, you're off base, my friend. 

He's a little bit of a slimeball. 

Agreed, but let's keep focusing on ridding ourselves of delusion, whether faith, political ideology, or the like, and continue advancing the human condition and improving our species and the world. I mean, really, it's not despite scientific advancement that things have gotten better but rather because of. With more awareness comes more knowledge, and with more knowledge comes more wisdom, guiding humanity towards a future where harmony and understanding prevail. 

 

Where did I say community is only derived from a religious belief ? 

I didn't.

 

 

You made statements about archaic thinking patterns, obsolete answers, continue to live in a delusion.

 

If you don't want to believe in a god, and 

belong to a community that does that's fine.

 

Why mock others that do.

I don't tell you to give up your stance on this subject.

 

Why should they give up their community just because you think these things. 

As I have stated many times I can see the benefits of religion at a congregational level.

I have witnessed them.

 

I often hear athiests state that religious people shouldn't force their ideas on others, and I agree, sounds like you are trying to force your ideas on others.

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, Jester13 said:

I don't. Heck, we all have a sense in communtiy as Canucks fans.

You don't believe? 

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I often hear athiests state that religious people shouldn't force their ideas on others, and I agree, sounds like you are trying to force your ideas on others.

Basically yes, there are good people among the 'flock' being fleeced by religions, however, in a topic discussing gods and religion there is no force involved in the discussion, one, without regard for their personal beliefs is free to read or not bother reading. Force is like when the Catholic Church laid siege to the last Cathar stronghold and forced them to either convert or die. Forced is when the Catholics and Anglicans opened Residential schools to 'kill the native in the child', and turn First Nations children in Canada into good little christians. Forced is what we are seeing the vast majority of good muslims in Gaza being led to this horrific war by their leaders, Hamas, for no gains, massive loss of life and limb for an ideology that forgets humanity along the way. 

 

Anyway you get the idea, words in forum are not forcing anything, history itself speaks to the force with which Atheists' have been subject to for several millennia now. 

 

edit: in fact, if i said the things I have said in this forum at any point in history from about 1850 years ago until about 120 years ago, I might not live another day, and if I said them in certain countries even just yesterday, I might not be alive right now. That is force.

[Optimist Prime]

^ and when good little christians have lost the words to counter any arguments I make, they condemn my soul to eternal damnation and suffering in the pits of a hell that only they believe in.

[Jester13]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Where did I say community is only derived from a religious belief ? 

I didn't.

 

 

You made statements about archaic thinking patterns, obsolete answers, continue to live in a delusion.

 

If you don't want to believe in a god, and 

belong to a community that does that's fine.

 

Why mock others that do.

I don't tell you to give up your stance on this subject.

 

Why should they give up their community just because you think these things. 

As I have stated many times I can see the benefits of religion at a congregational level.

I have witnessed them.

 

I often hear athiests state that religious people shouldn't force their ideas on others, and I agree, sounds like you are trying to force your ideas on others.

 

 

 

Well, I'm not mocking anyone, but I do have a firm stance that living in delusion is detrimental in the long run. Granted, there are many people who aren't harmful to society with their religious delusion, but there are plenty of examples of how same or similar delusional thinking is incredibly harmful to society, both historically, presently, and likely predictably in the future. 

 

Enlightenment is important for our species. 

[RupertKBD]

8 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

^ and when good little christians have lost the words to counter any arguments I make, they condemn my soul to eternal damnation and suffering in the pits of a hell that only they believe in.

 

My experience is a bit less dire....

 

I find that when faced with facts about religion that defy explanation, religious folks tend to fall back on the "We mere mortals can't understand the intricacies of God's plan", mantra....To which my response is usually something like, "Oh....so it's magic then, is it?"

[Inkidu]

 

Interesting fact that young Dawkins was very influenced by the ideas of the priest Tielhard de Chardin which we would call intelligent design. The church, uncomfortable with the growing attention he was attracting, transferred him to China. Problem solved, except de Chardin discovered Peking Man and became even more famous. 

Anway, Weinstein is right, big science can be just as tyrannical as the religious institutions it displaced.