The God Thread

[Jester13]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Delusional beliefs ?

That is still stating somebody who holds those beliefs is delusional. 

 

I am always up for improving myself however I have been debating this particular topic of discussion for well over four decades, sometimes with people who have more knowledge on this subject than you do.

75 - 80 years of studying comparative religions, philosophy and believe it or not, science. 

 

 

In the discussions I have seen you participate in, I would describe you as an intelligent, erudite person. 

If you would only not use emotionally loaded terms like delusional, archaic and the like when discussing this subject, that would give you more credibility IMO. 

And also our fellow members who are believers might still be involved in the discussion.

 

 

 

There's one thing you should know about me in a thread like this, and that is that I don't pander to fallacious arguments such as you constantly make. Your appeal to authority and emotions are cheap ways to try and "win points" rather than addressing any argument I or others make. 

 

Trigger warning: the below video will come across as much harsher than my two words. But it will also point towards the people who have the type of thinking/beliefs I was referring to:

 

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, Jester13 said:

There's one thing you should know about me in a thread like this, and that is that I don't pander to fallacious arguments such as you constantly make. Your appeal to authority and emotions are cheap ways to try and "win points" rather than addressing any argument I or others make. 

 

Trigger warning: the below video will come across as much harsher than my two words. But it will also point towards the people who have the type of thinking/beliefs I was referring to:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can see there is no point in discussing this topic with you.

I have not provided fallacious arguments nor am I trying to " win cheap points", this is not a contest. 

 

And I can tell you this, I am the last person who will ever appeal to authority, in any of its forms.

 

There is something you should know about me, I treat people with respect.

You have a nice day.

[Jester13]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I can see there is no point in discussing this topic with you.

I have not provided fallacious arguments nor am I trying to " win cheap points", this is not a contest. 

 

And I can tell you this, I am the last person who will ever appeal to authority, in any of its forms.

 

There is something you should know about me, I treat people with respect.

You have a nice day.

"I am always up for improving myself however I have been debating this particular topic of discussion for well over four decades, sometimes with people who have more knowledge on this subject than you do.

75 - 80 years of studying comparative religions, philosophy and believe it or not, science."

 

The above is an appeal to authority, along with constantly telling everyone how good of a person you are (which is passive aggressively implying to me and others who disagree with you that we're not as good of people as you) is a common fallacious strategy to appeal to emotions - essentially playing the victim of being offended and letting everyone know it, which distracts attention away from actual arguments. 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

"I am always up for improving myself however I have been debating this particular topic of discussion for well over four decades, sometimes with people who have more knowledge on this subject than you do.

75 - 80 years of studying comparative religions, philosophy and believe it or not, science."

 

The above is an appeal to authority, along with constantly telling everyone how good of a person you are (which is passive aggressively implying to me and others who disagree with you that we're not as good of people as you) is a common fallacious strategy to appeal to emotions - essentially playing the victim of being offended and letting everyone know it, which distracts attention away from actual arguments. 

 

You told me to take a tip.

That was my reply. 

 

There are no facts to be had.

This is a philosophical discussion at heart.

 

As I have stated, there is no purpose in continuing this conversation.

Fundamentalist athiests like yourself are just the same as fundamentalist Christians IMO, your minds are both shut.

 

Again I bid you a good day, actually it's evening your time, good evening.

 

Edit

 

I don't tell people how good I am, I simply describe the sort of person I am.

You are the one coming that judgement.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Ilunga

[Playoff Beered]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

You told me to take a tip.

That was my reply. 

 

There are no facts to be had.

This is a philosophical discussion at heart.

 

As I have stated, there is no purpose in continuing this conversation.

Fundamentalist athiests like yourself are just the same as fundamentalist Christians IMO, your minds are both shut.

 

Again I bid you a good day, actually it's evening your time, good evening.

 

Edit

 

I don't tell people how good I am, I simply describe the sort of person I am.

You are the one coming that judgement.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Ilunga]

48 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

 

And here I thought we were getting along.

 

 

 

 

We will always be friends as far as I am concerned, we both share a love of Ice hockey...I think.

Do you love Ice hockey ?

I am not much for team sports, participating that is, however with hockey it's different.

 

I claimed that I showed others respect ?

Would you agree with this ?

 

 

 

 

[bishopshodan]

I posted this back at the other site.

 

It's on my gym playlist and popped up this morn. 

 

I enjoy the lyrics...

 

 

 

Dear God, where'd you go?
You haven't been answering your phone
Not sayin' I'm mad but the world is fucked up
So you should come around more
Oh dear God, I hate to say
People don't believe in you these days
Not saying I don't but the world is fucked up
So you should come around more

Oh dear God, we haven't talked in a while
I'm all grown up now but still feel like a child
And I'm sorry that I only holla when I need a favor
But all my people really need a Savior
Enough about me, what about you dawg
You beefin' with science?
And by the way I got some bad pressure in my sinus
It may be a migraine, it may be the climate change
But who am I to talk, I haven't recycled in 5 days

Dear God, we still celebrate Christmas
'Cause the novelty of holidays is really big business
You heard the prophecy of ol' Saint Nic
I heard this year he got Ms. Claus some big fake tits
And the longer you go missing
The more the story's twisting
And people count the days to make their birthday wishes
And it's never gon- never gonna change
So you should come around more

Oh dear God, where'd you go
You haven't been answering your phone
Not sayin' I'm mad but the world is fucked up
So You should come around more
Oh dear God, I hate to say
People don't believe in you these days
Not saying I don't but the world is fucked up
So You should come around more

God damn! people say that I'm insensitive
And that I use your name in vain and I should be more sensitive
But I bet they mean more secretive
And not expose the hypocrite in every walking piece of shit
And hiding is insulting your intelligence
That fake-ass walking 'round in Sundays best
When they know the world revolves around money and sex
The worst people are the first to forget

I bite my tongue but can't change how I think
(Uh-na na na)
I talk to you because I can't afford a shrink
(Uh-na na na)
It's the everyday people who do the ugliest things
And it's never gon- never gonna change
So you should come around more

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by bishopshodan

[RupertKBD]

Wasn't sure whether this belonged in the US Politics, or the God thread.....

 

The truth is, it should be in the Goddamned Ridiculous thread. (This twerp is also a flat earther who thinks the rest of us have been "brainwashed" into believing the earth is round. )

 

 

[bishopshodan]

2 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

Wasn't sure whether this belonged in the US Politics, or the God thread.....

 

The truth is, it should be in the Goddamned Ridiculous thread. (This twerp is also a flat earther who thinks the rest of us have been "brainwashed" into believing the earth is round. )

 

 

 

Umm, about her last lines...

I'm an old metal head. From my understanding Satan is a pretty good manager if Taylor decides to switch agencies. 

[Gurn]

A map of some 'holy sites' in the middle east

Sacred Sites of the Middle East.html

 

All those places, all so close to one another.

special places for jews, christians and muslims.

all the fighting and death going on around there, for way, way, way, WAY too long.

Thousands upon thousands, tens of thousands and more-  of deaths of women, kids, men, civilians, freedom fighters, terrorists and all the other labels we hand out to humans.

 

Yet no appearance by even 1 of those gods.

Heck, forget an appearance, none of them can even muster the energy to make weapons of war too hot to touch, or just make those weapons disappear.

could even leave the weapons alone, and make all the ammo unusable

 

My conclusion is- either those gods don't exist or they don't give a fuck.

 

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Gurn said:

A map of some 'holy sites' in the middle east

Sacred Sites of the Middle East.html 137.5 kB · 0 downloads

 

All those places, all so close to one another.

special places for jews, christians and muslims.

all the fighting and death going on around there, for way, way, way, WAY too long.

Thousands upon thousands, tens of thousands and more-  of deaths of women, kids, men, civilians, freedom fighters, terrorists and all the other labels we hand out to humans.

 

Yet no appearance by even 1 of those gods.

Heck, forget an appearance, none of them can even muster the energy to make weapons of war too hot to touch, or just make those weapons disappear.

could even leave the weapons alone, and make all the ammo unusable

 

My conclusion is- either those gods don't exist or they don't give a fuck.

 

 

Actually all those people believe in the same god, the Abrahamic god. 

 

As for the rest, Deism ?

Belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator that does not intervene in the universe 

 

And people killing each other for stupid reasons happens everywhere on this planet.

At certain points where different cultures collide, ie the middle east, instead of being meeting points, they turn into battlefields.

Is not that the human condition ?

 

[Optimist Prime]

37 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Actually all those people believe in the same god, the Abrahamic god. 

 

As for the rest, Deism ?

Belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator that does not intervene in the universe 

 

And people killing each other for stupid reasons happens everywhere on this planet.

At certain points where different cultures collide, ie the middle east, instead of being meeting points, they turn into battlefields.

Is not that the human condition ?

 

I believe so yes. Fear of the 'other' defines our species, but it is no different than any other animal, we are just the only animals that think we are not animals.

[Ilunga]

48 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I believe so yes. Fear of the 'other' defines our species, but it is no different than any other animal, we are just the only animals that think we are not animals.

 

Again, there is no " other " to me, just us. 

 

" The great thing about being a human 

Is our ability to reason

But reasoning don't work when no one cares

Two parts apathy, one part despair "

 

Mike Burkett

 

I had a T-shirt printed with those words. 

 

As for fear, I confront my fear when I hit a 100 ft gap on my MTB.

I fear failure, that more than any particular talent won me a lot of MTB races. 

Fear keeps an actions sports athlete alive.

 

 

 

 

[Playoff Beered]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Actually all those people believe in the same god, the Abrahamic god. 

 

As for the rest, Deism ?

Belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator that does not intervene in the universe 

 

And people killing each other for stupid reasons happens everywhere on this planet.

At certain points where different cultures collide, ie the middle east, instead of being meeting points, they turn into battlefields.

Is not that the human condition ?

 

Yeah you're probably right, religion has nothing to do with it. It's just a coincidence this place keeps descending into this level of violence.

Could happen anywhere for any reason really.

[Inkidu]

10 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Again, there is no " other " to me, just us. 

 

" The great thing about being a human 

Is our ability to reason

But reasoning don't work when no one cares

Two parts apathy, one part despair "

 

Mike Burkett

 

I had a T-shirt printed with those words. 

 

As for fear, I confront my fear when I hit a 100 ft gap on my MTB.

I fear failure, that more than any particular talent won me a lot of MTB races. 

Fear keeps an actions sports athlete alive.

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed, you all speak of the evolutionary religions, the religions of fear and superstion, but they are slowly being replaced by the religion of revelation--of love and service. 

 

Dawkins et al attack the former. In other words, the legacy of those early beliefs are the religions they believe in, insofar as they define religion as they understand it. They (and ya'll) are right to denounce such primitive beliefs, but you might consider them to be a necessary stage for us to evolve through in order to be able to recieve higher concepts. 

 

If you were suddenly transported to the very presence of God you would be just as oblivious to his existance as you are now. That is because you have to become adequately spiritized before you can percieve him. It's a long journey. 

 

How many times have I heard someone say "When I was twelve (or whatever early age) I thought about what I had been taught and realized it was all nonsense." Well, how wise is a twelve year old? It's worth looking at again on your own terms as an adult.

 

How many minutes do you have in this life? Half a million or so? Try sparing one or two of them in an earnest attempt to contact the God that resides within you. That is how you might be able to understand what true religion is, and that is not the religions of fear that you talk about. 

 

 

[Ilunga]

13 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Yeah you're probably right, religion has nothing to do with it. It's just a coincidence this place keeps descending into this level of violence.

Could happen anywhere for any reason really.

Well this last century and to some extent this century, the conflicts in the middle east are due to the French and British drawing boundaries for nations that did not take into account the ethnic diversity or tribal diversity of the people who had lived there for centuries.

 

And the current conflict is about two different groups of people wanting the right of self determination.  

 

 

[Ilunga]

17 minutes ago, Inkidu said:

 

Indeed, you all speak of the evolutionary religions, the religions of fear and superstion, but they are slowly being replaced by the religion of revelation--of love and service. 

 

Dawkins et al attack the former. In other words, the legacy of those early beliefs are the religions they believe in, insofar as they define religion as they understand it. They (and ya'll) are right to denounce such primitive beliefs, but you might consider them to be a necessary stage for us to evolve through in order to be able to recieve higher concepts. 

 

If you were suddenly transported to the very presence of God you would be just as oblivious to his existance as you are now. That is because you have to become adequately spiritized before you can percieve him. It's a long journey. 

 

How many times have I heard someone say "When I was twelve (or whatever early age) I thought about what I had been taught and realized it was all nonsense." Well, how wise is a twelve year old? It's worth looking at again on your own terms as an adult.

 

How many minutes do you have in this life? Half a million or so? Try sparing one or two of them in an earnest attempt to contact the God that resides within you. That is how you might be able to understand what true religion is, and that is not the religions of fear that you talk about. 

 

 

 

Didn't even mention religion or god in that post brother.

 

The first part of my post was me stating in reply to PO, there is no " other ", just 8 billion fellow homies.

 

The second part of my post was about our species ability to reason, and by inference from the lyrics of that song, peoples ability to reason being affected by apathy and despair. 

 

The other part of my post dealt with fear.

 

All topics PO brought up in his post, ergo my reply to him.

[Optimist Prime]

37 minutes ago, Inkidu said:

That is because you have to become adequately spiritized before you can percieve him. It's a long journey. 

No personal offense intended, but the thing of it is, according to whom?

 

ROFL. I thought you were tacking towards the beyond good and evil idea, where I vaguely feel at ease, but you just darted down "you will see" alley.

[Inkidu]

14 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Didn't even mention religion or god in that post brother.

 

The first part of my post was me stating in reply to PO, there is no " other ", just 8 billion fellow homies.

 

The second part of my post was about our species ability to reason, and by inference from the lyrics of that song, peoples ability to reason being affected by apathy and despair. 

 

The other part of my post dealt with fear.

 

All topics PO brought up in his post, ergo my reply to him.

 

Yes I meant in general everyone here debates the scaffolding of religion and not its higher purpose. Today at best we have hybrid religions where more advanced concepts are corrupted by the retention of archaic beliefs. Revelation at least has added the concept of a God of final value and the idea of survival after death.

 

If you don't believe in anyone's definition of God does that justify dismissing religion altogether? If you object to concepts of God couldn't that also mean that have a better one? 

 

And again, i don't mean you personally. 

[Inkidu]

14 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

No personal offense intended, but the thing of it is, according to whom?

 

ROFL. I thought you were tacking towards the beyond good and evil idea, where I vaguely feel at ease, but you just darted down "you will see" alley.

 

Phrasing it in such an antagonistic way just means you aren't interested in adding experience to your theories. I simply told you frankly how to find out what true religion is. Don't be afraid to go down the alley. 

[UnkNuk]

2 hours ago, Inkidu said:

 

Phrasing it in such an antagonistic way just means you aren't interested in adding experience to your theories. I simply told you frankly how to find out what true religion is. Don't be afraid to go down the alley. 

 

I think Inkidu is making an important point here.

 

Much of the criticism in this forum seems to be against organized religious institutions.  And fair enough.

 

But there is this other side of religion or spirituality - the personal experience side.  Throughout history, there have been individuals who have had some sort of revolution in their consciousness that has led them to believe that there is some other 'thing' out there, which can be called God.  That is the aspect of 'religion' or 'God' that I find most interesting.

 

(And, yes, this may have more to do with psychology than religion or God, but I still find it interesting.)

[Optimist Prime]

35 minutes ago, UnkNuk said:

 

I think Inkidu is making an important point here.

 

Much of the criticism in this forum seems to be against organized religious institutions.  And fair enough.

 

But there is this other side of religion or spirituality - the personal experience side.  Throughout history, there have been individuals who have had some sort of revolution in their consciousness that has led them to believe that there is some other 'thing' out there, which can be called God.  That is the aspect of 'religion' or 'God' that I find most interesting.

 

(And, yes, this may have more to do with psychology than religion or God, but I still find it interesting.)

I am highly intrigued as well, I have studied theology and mythology most of my life at this point as a hobby. as Bowie would say "I am waiting for the gift of sound and vision" and as such I can only reply that the insane asylums are full of people that god talked to. So are the jails. Sometimes the schizophrenic delusion is extremely real. Real enough that good people have killed over the voices in their heads. 

 

EDIT for clarity: in this post I am NOT saying people who believe in god are schizo...just that schizophrenic people all over the world hear voices that tell them to do some pretty unreal and disgusting stuff.  The three Abrahamic religions were founded by a guy in the desert who thought god told him to kill his son. Then at about the time the murder was about to happen he "talked with god again'' and realized that god just wanted him to mutilate his genitals a little. You can't make this stuff up, or can you?

[UnkNuk]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I am highly intrigued as well, I have studied theology and mythology most of my life at this point as a hobby. as Bowie would say "I am waiting for the gift of sound and vision" and as such I can only reply that the insane asylums are full of people that god talked to. So are the jails. Sometimes the schizophrenic delusion is extremely real. Real enough that good people have killed over the voices in their heads. 

 

It's true that some mentally disturbed people have religious manias.  And it's also true that some people who claim to have had 'God experiences' are fraudsters who are in it for the money or power.

 

But are we then justified in dismissing *everyone* who claims to have had some sort of profound inner experience as a crazy person or a liar?

[Optimist Prime]

I would say it would need to depend on other individual evidence, which brings us back to faith. 

[Spur1]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

I would say it would need to depend on other individual evidence, which brings us back to faith. 

Faith in what?