The God Thread

[Optimist Prime]

On 10/16/2023 at 7:10 AM, Jester13 said:

There's one thing you should know about me in a thread like this, and that is that I don't pander to fallacious arguments such as you constantly make. Your appeal to authority and emotions are cheap ways to try and "win points" rather than addressing any argument I or others make. 

 

Trigger warning: the below video will come across as much harsher than my two words. But it will also point towards the people who have the type of thinking/beliefs I was referring to:

 

 

 

 

 

Three things, first oddly i Didn't know if i liked you as you share an internet nom de guerre with an ex of an old high school flame and her ex is some kind of, oh yes he is Jehova's witness apparently. I mean if the bench calls for witnesses, maybe he can sway the court. Secondly, you have posted some great items i have noticed since like 3 weeks back, not gonna lie, i was impressed with where you are coming from. Lastly, Thank you for that bit about the appeal from authority or emotion. I have a hard time being concise with my thoughts, the results of one too many knocks to the noggin overseas. That is a term i have been searching for for some time and couldn't recall the phrasing. 

[Optimist Prime]

55 minutes ago, Spur1 said:

Faith in what? 

that is what I said! nothing into nothing, carry the nothing....Funny side story, zero is a concept from the middle east in mathematics of the ancients. 

[Playoff Beered]

6 hours ago, UnkNuk said:

It's true that some mentally disturbed people have religious manias.  And it's also true that some people who claim to have had 'God experiences' are fraudsters who are in it for the money or power.

 

But are we then justified in dismissing *everyone* who claims to have had some sort of profound inner experience as a crazy person or a liar?

 

Why just one of those two? I can easily dismiss it as someone having a "being at one with the universe", experience. Happens all the time. Doesn't prove there's a god just because someone tuned in to the here and now and they're "seeing" the oneness of the universe.

 

[PeteyBOI]

According to a study, 85% of smokers who had a “mystical experience” after taking psilocybin mushrooms quit smoking ¹. This is an impressive success rate compared to nicotine replacement therapies, which have a success rate of around 20% ¹.2

A mystical experience is a state of altered or higher consciousness that transcends ordinary reality and reveals a deeper truth or reality. It often involves feelings of oneness, sacredness, bliss, peace, and ecstasy. A mystical experience is usually short-lived, ineffable, and profoundly meaningful 3.

It’s important to note that psilocybin mushrooms are illegal in many countries and can have serious side effects. Therefore, it’s not advisable to use them as a smoking cessation aid without proper medical supervision ¹4

 

https://www.vice.com/en/article/yvxev5/quit-smoking-with-shrooms-910

https://observatory.synthesisretreat.com/what-is-a-mystical-experience

 

The exact mechanism by which a mystical experience helps quit smoking is not yet fully understood. However, there is evidence that the sense of unity and mystical significance many people experience on psilocybin is associated with greater success in quitting, and those who take the drug may be better able to deal with cravings ¹.

In a study conducted by Johns Hopkins University, 15 smokers who had been smoking for an average of 31 years and had attempted to quit an average of six times in their lives were given a 15-week smoking cessation course, which involved at least two doses of psilocybin alongside weekly therapy sessions. At the six-month follow-up after the treatment, 12 out of 15 participants were abstinent from smoking. Of the three participants who were still smoking at the six-month follow-up, two had significantly reduced their smoking levels. Only one participant in the entire study did not feel that psilocybin had positively influenced their smoking cessation. This 80% success rate compares very favorably to typical measures of smoking cessation, such as therapy alone, that usually only reach 35% success at most ².

It’s important to note that psilocybin mushrooms are illegal in many countries and can have serious side effects. Therefore, it’s not advisable to use them as a smoking cessation aid without proper medical supervision ².

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/johns-hopkins-scientists-give-psychedelics-the-serious-treatment/

https://www.synthesisretreat.com/quit-smoking

 

 

Mystical experiences are often associated with religious or spiritual beliefs, but they can also occur in non-religious contexts ¹. William James, the “father of American psychology,” published a variety of firsthand accounts of mystical experiences and revelations collected from people from all walks of life. The experiences typically led to strong, long-lasting, even lifelong religious convictions, because they usually reinforced belief in a divine cosmic order ².

In a study conducted by researchers at the University of California, Berkeley, participants who reported having mystical experiences were more likely to believe in a higher power or God than those who did not report such experiences ³. However, it’s important to note that not all mystical experiences involve belief in God or religion. Some people may have mystical experiences that are not related to any particular religious or spiritual tradition ¹.

It’s also worth noting that the relationship between mystical experiences and belief in God is complex and multifaceted. Some people may have mystical experiences that reinforce their existing beliefs, while others may have experiences that challenge or transform their beliefs

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism 

https://bing.com/search?q=correlation+between+mystical+experiences+and+believing+in+god

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/what-would-happen-if-everyone-truly-believed-everything-is-one/

 

 

 

 

 

[UnkNuk]

11 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Why just one of those two? I can easily dismiss it as someone having a "being at one with the universe", experience. Happens all the time. Doesn't prove there's a god just because someone tuned in to the here and now and they're "seeing" the oneness of the universe.

 

 

Why would you just dismiss it?  Isn't the "being at one with the universe" experience potentially quite important?  That it might show us the reality of our existence which most of us are unaware of most of the time?  And that "oneness of the universe" is what many people mean by "God"?

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, UnkNuk said:

 

Why would you just dismiss it?  Isn't the "being at one with the universe" experience potentially quite important?  That it might show us the reality of our existence which most of us are unaware of most of the time?  And that "oneness of the universe" is what many people mean by "God"?

 

How can you tell that from just being really baked?

[Playoff Beered]

1 hour ago, UnkNuk said:

Why would you just dismiss it?  Isn't the "being at one with the universe" experience potentially quite important?  That it might show us the reality of our existence which most of us are unaware of most of the time?  And that "oneness of the universe" is what many people mean by "God"?

 

I'm dismissing the idea that it proves a god exists, not the experience itself, which, at the end of the day is only really important to the experiencer. 

 

As for people equating that oneness with the universe is what people mean by god, that's up to the individual. I'm sure there's some who would argue that unless it's an old white dude with a beard it's not god, because that's what was taught back in Sunday school when they were a kid. Others might insist it has to include seeing something like these supposed biblically accurate angels...in which case it seems much more likely that certain varieties of mushrooms or maybe Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) has been ingested.

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Optimist Prime]

Fishes and Loaves, can be combined to make a form of LSD adjacent Ergot strain. a cereal grass based fungal disease. 

 

Not that I believe the fishes and loaves story happened, but IF i had thousands of hungry people and i passed out blotter acid to them and told them they were full, among other preachings, I am guessing weeks months or years later those people might all remember that my couple fish and loaves of bread fed them all. They might even recall how miraculous it was. 

[PeteyBOI]

[UnkNuk]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

How can you tell that from just being really baked?

 

I'm not sure.

 

[UnkNuk]

1 hour ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

I'm dismissing the idea that it proves a god exists, not the experience itself, which, at the end of the day is only really important to the experiencer.

 

But the experience could be important to all of us if it points to a reality that truly exists and which we (or most of us) are simply unaware.

 

1 hour ago, Playoff Beered said:

As for people equating that oneness with the universe is what people mean by god, that's up to the individual.

 

True.  And that's the problem in a thread like this.  Different people might be using different definitions and so we are all talking about different things.

 

(Cool pictures, BTW).

Edited October 21, 2023 by UnkNuk

[Playoff Beered]

1 hour ago, UnkNuk said:

But the experience could be important to all of us if it points to a reality that truly exists and which we (or most of us) are simply unaware.

 

 

True.  And that's the problem in a thread like this.  Different people might be using different definitions and so we are all talking about different things.

 

(Cool pictures, BTW).

 

Just because you or anyone has a moment with the universe doesn't make it important for anyone else. That's the human ego deciding their experience should matter to others, which is main character syndrome at best or a narcissistic personality disorder at worst.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Optimist Prime]

 

I would suggest that anyone who feels a complete oneness with the universe or having one of those moments may want to consider how utterly insignificant our pale blue dot is even within our own solar system, let alone our Galaxy, let alone the universe, let alone the possible multiverse. The simplest explanation is the final frontier is really the human mind.  We don't fully understand our own grey matter, let alone the secrets of the universe and such. So for me, it isn't evidence of god, but evidence of our rapidly increasing brain powers. Side note: i wonder where ants will be in 5 million years on the evolutionary ladder? I imagine our pretending we matter to the greater cosmos is akin to an ant thinking it matters to even the world outside of a few hundred meters of earth. I dunno, just supposin.

[UnkNuk]

5 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Just because you or anyone has a moment with the universe doesn't make it important for anyone else. That's the human ego deciding their experience should matter to others, which is main character syndrome at best or a narcissistic personality disorder at worst.

 

It's possible that you're right.

 

But it's also possible that this 'realization' of the few has important implications for all of us.  That we too may have this realization and any behavioural changes it may bring about.  And that it may be revealing an important truth about ourselves and the universe.

[UnkNuk]

4 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I would suggest that anyone who feels a complete oneness with the universe or having one of those moments may want to consider how utterly insignificant our pale blue dot is even within our own solar system, let alone our Galaxy, let alone the universe, let alone the possible multiverse.

 

But if each one of us is part of this huge universe, then we can't really call any part of it, including ourselves or our planet, "insignificant".  Because, in some sense, it's all one thing.

 

4 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

The simplest explanation is the final frontier is really the human mind.  We don't fully understand our own grey matter, let alone the secrets of the universe and such. So for me, it isn't evidence of god, but evidence of our rapidly increasing brain powers.

 

I agree - these experiences may be evidence about the untapped potential of our human minds rather than about anything spiritual or about the universe. 

 

Where I differ from you and @Playoff Beered is that I also think these experiences may, in fact, be telling us something about the universe and our relation to it.

 

Unlike you two, I'm not sure.

[Playoff Beered]

9 minutes ago, UnkNuk said:

It's possible that you're right.

 

But it's also possible that this 'realization' of the few has important implications for all of us.  That we too may have this realization and any behavioural changes it may bring about.  And that it may be revealing an important truth about ourselves and the universe.

 

If looking at it through the lens of anything is possible, then yes, it sure is.

[Playoff Beered]

21 minutes ago, UnkNuk said:

But if each one of us is part of this huge universe, then we can't really call any part of it, including ourselves or our planet, "insignificant".  Because, in some sense, it's all one thing.

 

 

I agree - these experiences may be evidence about the untapped potential of our human minds rather than about anything spiritual or about the universe. 

 

Where I differ from you and @Playoff Beered is that I also think these experiences may, in fact, be telling us something about the universe and our relation to it.

 

Unlike you two, I'm not sure.

 

The only thing I'm sure of, is that I have never posted, I'm sure of something.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[UnkNuk]

7 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

If looking at it through the lens of anything is possible, then yes, it sure is.

 

Okay, so we have differing opinions on how far-fetched these ideas are.

 

2 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

The only thing I'm sure of is that I never posted that I'm sure of anything.

 

Apologies if I've misunderstood your posts.   To me, you come across as quite certain in your opinions.

[Playoff Beered]

Just now, UnkNuk said:

Okay, so we have differing opinions on how far-fetched these ideas are.

 

 

Apologies if I've misunderstood your posts.   To me, you come across as quite certain in your opinions.

 

That's a good way to put it.

 

I'm near certain that the universe is ruled by the "god" of chaos, so certain, that I openly mock the idea of a creator as put forth in the bible, but, at the end of the day, because I believe in science, I have to allow for the possibility that, the bible or any one of the many hundreds of other religions may actually be, the true word of god.

 

Also, I would add that I have total respect for peoples spiritual journey, as long as they don't try to make rules for anyone else based on their religious beliefs. 

[PeteyBOI]

6 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

 

I would suggest that anyone who feels a complete oneness with the universe or having one of those moments may want to consider how utterly insignificant our pale blue dot is even within our own solar system, let alone our Galaxy, let alone the universe, let alone the possible multiverse. The simplest explanation is the final frontier is really the human mind.  We don't fully understand our own grey matter, let alone the secrets of the universe and such. So for me, it isn't evidence of god, but evidence of our rapidly increasing brain powers. Side note: i wonder where ants will be in 5 million years on the evolutionary ladder? I imagine our pretending we matter to the greater cosmos is akin to an ant thinking it matters to even the world outside of a few hundred meters of earth. I dunno, just supposin.

many people believe god is ingrained in our instincts and dna... some people are able to tap into adrenaline better than others, is it so hard to believe that god as we know it is all of us, trapped behind our upbringings and forced to live a boring slave life... only when taking mushrooms a substance very related to us does it bind with our minds opening the path to our true meaning

[Ilunga]

19 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

That's a good way to put it.

 

I'm near certain that the universe is ruled by the "god" of chaos, so certain, that I openly mock the idea of a creator as put forth in the bible, but, at the end of the day, because I believe in science, I have to allow for the possibility that, the bible or any one of the many hundreds of other religions may actually be, the true word of god.

 

Also, I would add that I have total  respect for peoples spiritual journey, as long as they don't try to make rules for anyone else based on their religious beliefs. 

 

So you do actually believe in a goddess, the Greek goddess of  Chaos Eris ? 

 

Or is it Apophis, the Egyptian god of Chaos ?

 

Or is it Tiamat, the Mesopotamian goddess of Chaos ?

 

Or is it Balor, the Celtic god of Chaos ?

 

Or is it Yam, the Canaanite god of Chaos ? 

 

Actually some estimate there are over 4000 religions, so you do admit the possibility, however remote, that one, or more may indeed contain some element of truth ? 

 

As for your last statement, respecting others spiritual journey, over the years you have been posting on this board, I have seen you post memes that mock people for wasting their lives believing in a god. Many of those people don't force their beliefs on others, or want to make rules for others based on their beliefs.

I would hardly call that respect.

 

Flap, flap, flap, of butterfly wings.

[Playoff Beered]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

So you do actually believe in a goddess, the Greek goddess of  Chaos Eris ? 

 

Or is it Apophis, the Egyptian god of Chaos ?

 

Or is it Tiamat, the Mesopotamian goddess of Chaos ?

 

Or is it Balor, the Celtic god of Chaos ?

 

Or is it Yam, the Canaanite god of Chaos ? 

 

Actually some estimate there are over 4000 religions, so you do admit the possibility, however remote, that one, or more may indeed contain some element of truth ? 

 

As for your last statement, respecting others spiritual journey, over the years you have been posting on this board, I have seen you post memes that mock people for wasting their lives believing in a god. Many of those people don't force their beliefs on others, or want to make rules for others based on their beliefs.

I would hardly call that respect.

 

Flap, flap, flap, of butterfly wings.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No. I just wrote it out that way because this is the god thread, but I think you knew that.

 

Yes, it's possible, but only because anything is possible. 

 

I believe if you're confident in your beliefs a meme is not going to hurt you. You have attacked my use of memes repeatedly, I suspect the only reason they bother you is because deep down you know some hold a lot of truth in them and they trigger uncomfortable feelings and rather than face those feelings it's easier to just belittle the messenger by proclaiming that I'm disrespectful and stating things like "it shows what kind of person you are".

 

Buzz, buzz, buzz of bee wings.

[Ilunga]

16 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No.

 

No. I just wrote it out that way because this is the god thread, but I think you knew that.

 

Yes, it's possible, but only because anything is possible. 

 

I believe if you're confident in your beliefs a meme is not going to hurt you. You have attacked my use of memes repeatedly, I suspect the only reason they bother you is because deep down you know some hold a lot of truth in them and they trigger uncomfortable feelings and rather than face those feelings it's easier to just belittle the messenger by proclaiming that I'm disrespectful and stating things like "it shows what kind of person you are".

 

Buzz, buzz, buzz of bee wings.

 

I have criticized your  use of memes, big difference.

I have never attacked anyone on this forum, I don't call people muppets or morons.

 

You raise no uncomfortable feelings in me, I just don't believe in mocking others is all. 

 

My butterfly comment was in relation to chaos theory, the second law of thermodynamics states that the universe tends towards disorder, and chaos is a necessary part of this process.

Edward Lorenz coined the term the butterfly effect in an effort to describe chaos theory. 

 

Universe " ruled " by chaos. 

 

What's with your bee comment ?

[Optimist Prime]

9 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

So you do actually believe in a goddess, the Greek goddess of  Chaos Eris ? 

 

Or is it Apophis, the Egyptian god of Chaos ?

 

Or is it Tiamat, the Mesopotamian goddess of Chaos ?

 

Or is it Balor, the Celtic god of Chaos ?

 

Or is it Yam, the Canaanite god of Chaos ? 

 

Actually some estimate there are over 4000 religions, so you do admit the possibility, however remote, that one, or more may indeed contain some element of truth ? 

 

As for your last statement, respecting others spiritual journey, over the years you have been posting on this board, I have seen you post memes that mock people for wasting their lives believing in a god. Many of those people don't force their beliefs on others, or want to make rules for others based on their beliefs.

I would hardly call that respect.

 

Flap, flap, flap, of butterfly wings.

Sophia. if i am forced to bow to a diety, it will be Sophia.

[Playoff Beered]

On 10/22/2023 at 12:26 AM, Ilunga said:

I have criticized your  use of memes, big difference.

I have never attacked anyone on this forum, I don't call people muppets or morons.

 

You raise no uncomfortable feelings in me, I just don't believe in mocking others is all. 

 

My butterfly comment was in relation to chaos theory, the second law of thermodynamics states that the universe tends towards disorder, and chaos is a necessary part of this process.

Edward Lorenz coined the term the butterfly effect in an effort to describe chaos theory. 

 

Universe " ruled " by chaos. 

 

What's with your bee comment ?

 

We are talking about something that has caused many wars, killed many people and attracted legions of pedophiles, grifters and the like, but yet you have the unmitigated audacity to whine about me using the word muppet to describe people that champion religion.

All the countless crimes against humanity caused by religion can be swept under the rug as long as we are polite and don't mock each other? Fuck that.

If you champion religion you deserve to be mocked, the same way I would mock Nazi's, pedophiles or anything else that causes suffering like the way organized religion has.

 

Yeah, I'm aware of the butterfly affect and get why you wrote that.

 

I just really like bees.