The God Thread

[Satchmo]

16 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Fair enough, I should have written religion is used for evil.

 

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Not sure I can agree on this one.   Not written as an absolute in the way it was.   I think all it takes is indoctrination.  

 

Consider a good German kid born in the 1920's and force fed propaganda in his formative years. He's dragged into war and all his associates are evil people doing evil things, as does he after a while.   He survives, and becomes a good father and grandfather to other good German kids.

 

 

[Playoff Beered]

1 hour ago, Satchmo said:

Not sure I can agree on this one.   Not written as an absolute in the way it was.   I think all it takes is indoctrination.  

 

Consider a good German kid born in the 1920's and force fed propaganda in his formative years. He's dragged into war and all his associates are evil people doing evil things, as does he after a while.   He survives, and becomes a good father and grandfather to other good German kids.

 

The nazi's use of religion to indoctrinate is well documented...

 

 

Anti-Semitic Propaganda and the Christian Church in Hitler’s Germany: A Case of Schrödinger’s Cat

 

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=83069

 

Religious aspects of Nazism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_aspects_of_Nazism

 

Standard issue Wehrmacht belt buckle, god is with us...

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Sharpshooter]

26 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

The nazi's use of religion to indoctrinate is well documented...

 

 

Anti-Semitic Propaganda and the Christian Church in Hitler’s Germany: A Case of Schrödinger’s Cat

 

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=83069

 

Religious aspects of Nazism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_aspects_of_Nazism

 

Standard issue Wehrmacht belt buckle, god is with us...

 

“God(The Gods) is/are with us”, is probably the most used ‘reason’ to compel monkeys to kill other monkeys over pieces of the ground, historically and in the modern age. 
 

How can ‘god’ be with both sides? It can’t, because there is no god. 
 

 

[Satchmo]

2 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

The nazi's use of religion to indoctrinate is well documented...

 

 

Anti-Semitic Propaganda and the Christian Church in Hitler’s Germany: A Case of Schrödinger’s Cat

 

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=83069

 

Religious aspects of Nazism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_aspects_of_Nazism

 

Standard issue Wehrmacht belt buckle...

 

 

I think that a lot of that hatred was more fiscal than religious.  I don't think WW2 was a religious war.  It was a land grab.  

 

I also think a lot of religious wars were actually fiscal and only posed as religious.   'Come on everybody, we can kill all the heathen Cathars for God!  And take all their lands and gold too!'

 

Anyway, not sure I want to dive too deep into all this.  As a word nerd, and one who is prone to take things literally (despite all the vague shit I can say),  I just found that one line to be a bit over the top.  If I really wanted to think about it, I'd probably be able to come up with better examples of good people doing evil.   But who the hell wants to think about that?

 

[Playoff Beered]

1 minute ago, Satchmo said:

I think that a lot of that hatred was more fiscal than religious.  I don't think WW2 was a religious war.  It was a land grab.  

 

I also think a lot of religious wars were actually fiscal and only posed as religious.   'Come on everybody, we can kill all the heathen Cathars for God!  And take all their lands and gold too!'

 

Anyway, not sure I want to dive too deep into all this.  As a word nerd, and one who is prone to take things literally (despite all the vague shit I can say),  I just found that one line to be a bit over the top.  If I really wanted to think about it, I'd probably be able to come up with better examples of good people doing evil.   But who the hell wants to think about that?

 

Totally agree, I was not trying to say it was a religious war, but religion was used by the nazi propagandists to justify the states actions to its people, hence my comment about good people doing evil things. If you convince the flock that your actions are ordained by god then it's a lot easier to get blood on your hands, or as Voltaire put it "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.'

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Totally agree, I was not trying to say it was a religious war, but religion was used by the nazi propagandists to justify the states actions to its people, hence my comment about good people doing evil things. If you convince the flock that your actions are ordained by god then it's a lot easier to get blood on your hands, or as Voltaire put it "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.'

 

I would say fear was a tool the Nazi's used to a greater effect than religion was.

I was watching a documentary about the Gestapo on the weekend, how it had so few members in relation to the population they were controlling, as it stated they used fear to control people. 

 

As Machiavelli himself wrote in The Prince, 

 "It is better to be feared than loved, if one cannot be both " 

 

 

[Playoff Beered]

19 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I would say fear was a tool the Nazi's used to a greater effect than religion was.

I was watching a documentary about the Gestapo on the weekend, how it had so few members in relation to the population they were controlling, as it stated they used fear to control people. 

 

As Machiavelli himself wrote in The Prince, 

 "It is better to be feared than loved, if one cannot be both "

 

You're confusing the gestapo with their victims, fear was used to control the victims, religion was used on the perpetrators to justify their actions. You actually believe all the Einsatzgruppen did their thing because they were scared? They were told they were on a mission from god.

[Satchmo]

51 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

You're confusing the gestapo with their victims, fear was used to control the victims, religion was used on the perpetrators to justify their actions. You actually believe all the Einsatzgruppen did their thing because they were scared? They were told they were on a mission from god.

Nope.   

 

Dial it back just a hair and I'd agree with you.   You are giving religion too much credit.    It's the cause of lots of evil, just not all of it.

[Playoff Beered]

6 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Nope.   

 

Dial it back just a hair and I'd agree with you.   You are giving religion too much credit.    It's the cause of lots of evil, just not all of it.

 

"Nope" that's a strong argument, lol.

 

Where did I say religion is the cause of all evil?

Edited October 26, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Satchmo]

Just now, Playoff Beered said:

 

What are you talking about, where did I say religion is the cause of all evil?

Ok, it was something about only religion can cause good men to do evil.   I disagreed and still do.   My post about an imaginary good German let to all that followed. 

It seemed to me to be all a continuation of that only religion can cause good men to do evil thought.

 

And allow me to point out I'm no great fan of religion.

[Playoff Beered]

8 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Ok, it was something about only religion can cause good men to do evil.   I disagreed and still do.   My post about an imaginary good German let to all that followed. 

It seemed to me to be all a continuation of that only religion can cause good men to do evil thought.

 

And allow me to point out I'm no great fan of religion.

 

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

 

Where do you see "only religion can cause evil" in this statement?

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Satchmo]

Just now, Playoff Beered said:

 

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

 

Where do you see "only religion can cause evil" in this statement?

 

It's this statement I can't agree with:

 

But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

 

But to counter it, I'd have to come up with examples of non religious good people doing evil.   I tried, you thought I failed, I thought I didn't. (and it got us into this whole Nazi thing)

 

To defend it, you'd have to come up with all examples of good people doing evil and prove to me they were religious good people.

 

I can see this tying up the courts for years, especially after all the appeals.  I'll happily settle out of court, and can send you the address where I'd like the cheque sent.

[Playoff Beered]

3 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

It's this statement I can't agree with:

 

But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

 

But to counter it, I'd have to come up with examples of non religious good people doing evil.   I tried, you thought I failed, I thought I didn't. (and it got us into this whole Nazi thing)

 

To defend it, you'd have to come up with all examples of good people doing evil and prove to me they were religious good people.

 

I can see this tying up the courts for years, especially after all the appeals.  I'll happily settle out of court, and can send you the address where I'd like the cheque sent.

 

Are they good people though, if they do evil things without religion making them act?

[Satchmo]

2 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Are they good people though, if they do evil things without religion making them act?

Are they good people though, if they do evil things with religion making them act?

 

This could go on a while.   I've got to make dinner soon.   I'm a good person and hunger is going to make me act.

[Playoff Beered]

16 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Are they good people though, if they do evil things with religion making them act?

 

This could go on a while.   I've got to make dinner soon.   I'm a good person and hunger is going to make me act.

 

I should mention that this statement is not my own, the person who this quote is from is Steven Weinberg, here is the full quote...

 

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

 

Steven Weinberg (1933-2021) was an American theoretical physicist and Nobel laureate in Physics for his contributions with Abdus Salam and Sheldon Glashow to the unification of the weak force and electromagnetic interaction between elementary particles.

He held the Josey Regental Chair in Science at the University of Texas at Austin, where he was a member of the Physics and Astronomy Departments. His research on elementary particles and physical cosmology was honored with numerous prizes and awards, including in 1979 the Nobel Prize in Physics and in 1991 the National Medal of Science. In 2004 he received the Benjamin Franklin Medal of the American Philosophical Society, with a citation that said he was "considered by many to be the preeminent theoretical physicist alive in the world today." He was elected to the US National Academy of Sciences and Britain's Royal Society, as well as to the American Philosophical Society and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.

 

Enjoy your dinner.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Sharpshooter]

14 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

It's this statement I can't agree with:

 

But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

 

But to counter it, I'd have to come up with examples of non religious good people doing evil.   I tried, you thought I failed, I thought I didn't. (and it got us into this whole Nazi thing)

 

To defend it, you'd have to come up with all examples of good people doing evil and prove to me they were religious good people.

 

I can see this tying up the courts for years, especially after all the appeals.  I'll happily settle out of court, and can send you the address where I'd like the cheque sent.

Salem Witch Trials, Any Jihad, The Crusades, 9-11, etc. 

 

Good people do evil things when prompted by religious stoking. 
 

This is a known known. 
 

Do good people do ‘evil’ things without a religious reason? Of course.
 

People do good and bad things all the time. Nowadays it’s called ‘mental health’ as a reason. 
 

I’d put religious zealotry up there in the categories of Mental Unhealth. 

[Satchmo]

6 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

I should mention that this statement is not my own, the person who this quote is from is Steven Weinberg.

 

Steven Weinberg (1933-2021) was an American theoretical physicist and Nobel laureate in Physics for his contributions with Abdus Salam and Sheldon Glashow to the unification of the weak force and electromagnetic interaction between elementary particles.

He held the Josey Regental Chair in Science at the University of Texas at Austin, where he was a member of the Physics and Astronomy Departments. His research on elementary particles and physical cosmology was honored with numerous prizes and awards, including in 1979 the Nobel Prize in Physics and in 1991 the National Medal of Science. In 2004 he received the Benjamin Franklin Medal of the American Philosophical Society, with a citation that said he was "considered by many to be the preeminent theoretical physicist alive in the world today." He was elected to the US National Academy of Sciences and Britain's Royal Society, as well as to the American Philosophical Society and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.

 

Enjoy your dinner.

I know of the man and his work.   I've read 'The First Three Minutes' twice, maybe three times.

 

It's a catchy phrase but still wrong I think. I'd say the same to professor Weinberg if he was still around.

 

Bon appetit.

[Playoff Beered]

1 minute ago, Satchmo said:

I know of the man and his work.   I've read 'The First Three Minutes' twice, maybe three times.

 

It's a catchy phrase but still wrong I think. I'd say the same to professor Weinberg if he was still around.

 

Bon appetit.

 

Love it 

[Sharpshooter]

5 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I know of the man and his work.   I've read 'The First Three Minutes' twice, maybe three times.

 

It's a catchy phrase but still wrong I think. I'd say the same to professor Weinberg if he was still around.

 

Bon appetit.

What part do you suggest is wrong? 
 

 

[Satchmo]

5 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Love it 

It was many years ago.  I remember a coworker razzing me over how many times I took that book to work.   I think the third time I was just revisiting bits of it.

[Satchmo]

3 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

What part do you suggest is wrong? 
 

 

But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

 

As a long time software guy, trained in Boolean logic, I can't help but stare at it a bit and call it false.   Close to true is not true.

[Bob Long]

On 10/25/2023 at 7:53 AM, Inkidu said:

Corporealism is part of the error of materialism. It's the spirit that has a body, not the other way around. The spirit is unaffected when the body dies. 

 

Spirit death is purely the result of a person's choices, and it is final. That is true death. 

 

So... How do you know this?

[Sharpshooter]

48 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

 

As a long time software guy, trained in Boolean logic, I can't help but stare at it a bit and call it false.   Close to true is not true.

It certainly doesn’t take a good person to just do bad things. It’s been the case forever. 
 

However, when religion is introduced, then good people are capable of doing evil things, in the name or justifications of their bedtime stories. 
 

Sorry, had to make a dig at religious stories/allegories. 

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

You're confusing the gestapo with their victims, fear was used to control the victims, religion was used on the perpetrators to justify their actions. You actually believe all the Einsatzgruppen did their thing because they were scared? They were told they were on a mission from god.

 

While I know of the existence of that unit, I am not conversant with how their leaders motivated them.

What I do know is that there was an unusually high suicide rate, alcoholism in the unit which contributed to it being disbanded.

 

What I know is that any German citizen/ soldier that didn't toe the party line was gonna cop some shit from some form of authority. 

 

 

 

[RupertKBD]

14 hours ago, Satchmo said:

But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

 

As a long time software guy, trained in Boolean logic, I can't help but stare at it a bit and call it false.   Close to true is not true.

 

I have to agree....there are a lot of examples of religion leading to terrible acts, but there are also things like (so-called) patriotism, race and protest against perceived government overstep....

 

The other point is valid however. A lot of bad things have been done in the name of religion. Of course a lot of good things have been done as well....the question is, which side of the scale bears more weight?