The God Thread

[RupertKBD]

16 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

You're confusing the gestapo with their victims, fear was used to control the victims, religion was used on the perpetrators to justify their actions. You actually believe all the Einsatzgruppen did their thing because they were scared? They were told they were on a mission from god.

 

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

While I know of the existence of that unit, I am not conversant with how their leaders motivated them.

What I do know is that there was an unusually high suicide rate, alcoholism in the unit which contributed to it being disbanded.

 

What I know is that any German citizen/ soldier that didn't toe the party line was gonna cop some shit from some form of authority.

 

I didn't study it as closely as you two, so I'm going to defer to PB's assessment....

 

Personally, I see those soldiers much in the same way I do religious people who commit horrific acts in the name of God. Whether their motivation comes from divine, or secular sources, they commit those acts with absolute confidence that what they're doing is right.

[bishopshodan]

5 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

 

 

I didn't study it as closely as you two, so I'm going to defer to PB's assessment....

 

Personally, I see those soldiers much in the same way I do religious people who commit horrific acts in the name of God. Whether their motivation comes from divine, or secular sources, they commit those acts with absolute confidence that what they're doing is right.

 

I think about this sometimes...

 

A comment that bridges this and the hamas thread.

 

I have quite a few military in my fam. My cousin did a couple tours in Afghanistan and Iraq after being stationed in Bosnia.  He was an accuracy shooter, would compete for England and won quite a lot of competitions. Though, he did mostly recon when deployed. He had aspirations of making it into the SAS. He was short listed and brought in for an interview. They told him that first he would have to go back to Afghanistan, however this time without the team he was used to (telic 5). This pissed him off and he had also been learning more about politics. He was growing up and learning more about the world. 

He had an awakening, he realised what his hands were doing in the name of something he did not support. 

 

It wasn't easy for him to leave military. They not so subtly started to hint that he owed them, they had spent so much on his training, he better watch himself.

 

What they didn't think about is that they had help train him to have balls of steel. 

 

He left. Went traveling and the most amazing thing happened...when he returned to London a lady from Kate Moss' model agency approached him on the street and asked him to come see them.

 

Doing the right thing rewarded him. He took responsibility of what he had done in service, he struggled with it a lot ( could not watch me play COD) part of why he went travelling was to get his mind healed. 

 

Anyway, you stimulated this little story with the thought that...what if the soldiers just stopped propping up the leaders that send them to hell? I know it's idealistic but not unlike the Canucks org, there is no team without the fans. There are no armies without the troops.

 

Spoiler

Edited October 27, 2023 by bishopshodan

[112]

2 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

 

I have to agree....there are a lot of examples of religion leading to terrible acts, but there are also things like (so-called) patriotism, race and protest against perceived government overstep....

 

The other point is valid however. A lot of bad things have been done in the name of religion. Of course a lot of good things have been done as well....the question is, which side of the scale bears more weight?

 

I'm not sure this is actually the question. Suffering is incommensurable; "rights" can't simply correct "wrongs" by virtue of numbers.

[Satchmo]

2 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

 

I have to agree....there are a lot of examples of religion leading to terrible acts, but there are also things like (so-called) patriotism, race and protest against perceived government overstep....

 

The other point is valid however. A lot of bad things have been done in the name of religion. Of course a lot of good things have been done as well....the question is, which side of the scale bears more weight?

Big question and one largely left to the eye of the beholder. I see some truth in the idea that religion is the opiate of the people, and we've seen what opioids can do.  We can also see all the schools and hospitals the church has built.  Not all the schools were great but the hospitals are a welcome addition.

 

I also see that maybe I went a bit over the top in the way I voiced my displeasure with Weinberg's quote.   I can handle Alf's absolutes but somehow that one really bugged me.

 

I woke up a bit sick today with a raging headache that's taken hours to subside.   Luckily, I don't get sick too often.   Many times though, when I do get sick, I can look back at the preceding few days and say 'Oh, that's why I've been so grumpy'.

[Playoff Beered]

35 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Big question and one largely left to the eye of the beholder. I see some truth in the idea that religion is the opiate of the people, and we've seen what opioids can do.  We can also see all the schools and hospitals the church has built.  Not all the schools were great but the hospitals are a welcome addition.

 

I also see that maybe I went a bit over the top in the way I voiced my displeasure with Weinberg's quote.   I can handle Alf's absolutes but somehow that one really bugged me.

 

I woke up a bit sick today with a raging headache that's taken hours to subside.   Luckily, I don't get sick too often.   Many times though, when I do get sick, I can look back at the preceding few days and say 'Oh, that's why I've been so grumpy'.

 

I hear what your saying, that quote does read as an absolute and there are no absolutes in science, so yeah.

 

I hope you feel better soon.

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

 

 

I didn't study it as closely as you two, so I'm going to defer to PB's assessment....

 

Personally, I see those soldiers much in the same way I do religious people who commit horrific acts in the name of God. Whether their motivation comes from divine, or secular sources, they commit those acts with absolute confidence that what they're doing is right.

 

In the context of this discussion it's very important what their motivations were, this a thread about religion and PB has claimed they were religiously motivated.

 

Some members enjoyed the mass killings, others were disturbed by them.

What is a fact is many of them took their own lives.

Turned to Alcoholism. 

 

 

https://study.com/academy/lesson/einsatzgruppen-definition-killing-squads-facts.html

 

 

 

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/einsatzgruppen

 

As the article states, they were aided by local people, neighbours, colleagues of the people they were murdering. 

What do you believe their motivations were ?

 

The list of critical thinking questions at the bottom of the article.

 

What were the pressures and motivations 

 

I can't find any quick information for answers to this question.

 

 

What penalties for refusing to shoot the Jews.

 

Tell me what do you believe the penalty would be for refusing to obey the orders of the Nazi's ?

 

Would you be brave enough to disobey orders and be shot yourself ?

 

I would like to believe I would, however one doesn't know until you are in that position.

 

The answers to many of these questions are probably in Richards Rhodes book 

The Masters of Death 

 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16891.Masters_of_Death

 

I already have a list of books a mile long I want to read, and frankly I am not in the head space to take in that sort of information at the moment.

[Playoff Beered]

Investigation estimates that there are more than 440,000 living victims of sexual abuse that took place within the Spanish Catholic Church 

The historic report released by Spain’s ombudsman details the abuses committed by clergy members, calling out the religious institution in harsh terms. According to the figures released, Spain is the country with the highest official projection of victims

https://english.elpais.com/spain/2023-10-28/investigation-estimates-that-there-are-more-than-440000-living-victims-of-sexual-abuse-that-took-place-within-the-spanish-catholic-church.html

 

Quote

 

EL PAÍS launched an investigation into pedophilia within the Spanish Catholic Church in 2018 and has an updated database with all known cases. If you know of any case that has not been reported, you can write to us at: abusos@elpais.es. If it’s a case in Latin America, the email address is: abusamerica@elpais.es

 

Spain has become a global exception among majority-Catholic countries. It went from having no officially recognized cases of pedophilia within the Catholic Church to being the country with the highest number of victims in the world. It is estimated that 1.13% of the current adult population has suffered abuse in the religious sphere. This is according to a large-scale survey, the first of its kind in the country, carried out by Ombudsman Ángel Gabilondo.

The ombudsman avoided making the calculation in round numbers during his appearance in the Congress of Deputies on Friday, October 27. His final report also doesn’t offer such figures. However, according to calculations by EL PAÍS, that 1.13% of the 38.9 million people registered in Spain in 2022 aged between 18 and 90 (the age range covered by the survey) corresponds to some 440,000 people. More specifically, of that 1.13%, 0.6% — some 233,000 people — claim to have suffered abuse from priests or lay people. More than 8,000 people were interviewed for the survey.

The demographic study is one of the pillars of the investigation that Gabilondo presented on Friday morning, 18 months after Congress commissioned it. He presented the report as an attempt to shed light on this hidden problem. He also criticized “the silence of those who could have done more to prevent” pedophilia.

These overwhelming figures — which exceed the 330,000 victims estimated by France in 2021 — represent a historic turnaround after decades of silencing the abuses. Since the sexual abuse scandal broke out in other countries starting in 2002, the Catholic Church of Spain has engaged in years of denial and cover-ups. Just two years ago, the spokesman for Spain’s bishops, Luis Argüello, stated that he knew of “zero or very few complaints” of sexual abuse by church officials.

The investigation that EL PAÍS has undertaken since 2018 has had a major impact, bringing the voices of hundreds of victims to the surface. By 2022, these efforts forced Congress to seek the truth about what happened. As of Friday, the first step has been taken.

This newspaper took part in the work that was organized by the ombudsman’s commission, offering all available data. Gabilondo highlighted this collaboration on Friday, noting that EL PAÍS had been one of the sources of information for the study and the subsequent report. The Church, meanwhile, after initially agreeing to reveal its own data, offered incomplete and uncoordinated support. Dioceses and orders admitted to 1,104 cases of abuse and 1,430 victims (921 from the orders and 509 from the dioceses). These figures were the highest ones publicly available, until now. In April of 2021 — the first time the Spanish Catholic Church officially admitted to the existence of sexual abuse victims — only 220 cases were acknowledged.

The estimated 1.13% of adult Spaniards who have suffered abuse in the Catholic religious sphere — according to the survey carried out by the consulting firm GAD3 on behalf of the ombudsman — are divided into two groups. Of the cases of sexual assault, 0.6% were at the hands of priests or religious figures, while the rest were committed by lay people who worked within Catholic institutions. The study indicates that this 0.6% is “a figure similar to that found in studies carried out in other countries.”

Findings from the study are framed in a context of even more serious abuses. The survey reveals that 11.7% of the people interviewed have been victims of sexual abuse in childhood or adolescence, mainly in the family environment. In total, the prevalence is higher among women — at 17% — while it stands at 6% among men. In the religious sphere, however, this data is reversed: it is men who have suffered the most abuse. They represent 53.8% of people abused in the Spanish religious sphere, as well as 64.6% of those who were sexually assaulted by a priest or religious figure.

The exhaustive 779-page-long report is titled “Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church and the Role of the Public Authorities.” A necessary response to widespread crimes, it’s a very meticulous document that firmly reproaches the Catholic Church of Spain for failing to adequately collaborate in the investigation.

“The response of the Catholic Church — at least, at the official level — has long been characterized by denial or minimization of the problem,” the report notes. The response of the Spanish Episcopal Conference to the inquiry commission’s request for information “still reflects an attitude characterized by caution and reluctance. Beyond a declared willingness to collaborate, the data [offered by the Church] has been presented in a way that tends to minimize the phenomenon and relegate it to a marginal aspect within the institution, emphasizing the social dimension of the problem and avoiding to address the internal factors that favor the dynamics of abuse and cover-up.”

The document alleges that the Church’s “defensive argument that the investigation should be extended to sexual abuse in other areas [is an attempt] to dismiss or minimize the social relevance of the Church and its power in Spain during much of the 20th century. Furthermore, [such a response] gives the impression that the Church isn’t especially interested in learning about the crimes.” Along these lines, the ombudsman notes that “certain attitudes have been detected in some episcopates… indicating a reluctance to recognize and investigate cases of abuse.”

As an example, he cites the lack of attention to some complaints when no information has been found in the files, “presuming in some way that the complainants — who are often adults over the age of 60 — have a spurious interest. [There is little] will to investigate the cases.” Regarding the diocesan archives, the information “has turned out to be… almost non-existent,” although many dioceses have only consulted them, not completely reviewed them.

One of the most relevant points of the report is that it doesn’t spare criticism of the institutions, which, “for a long time, have remained inactive in the face of the reality of sexual abuse and haven’t made the necessary efforts to protect minors” in educational centers. For this reason, it considers that the state as a supervisor also has a responsibility to bear for what has happened. The ombudsman proposes “the creation of a special temporary body, whose purpose is to compensate the victims in the cases in which — due to the statute of limitations of the crime or other causes — a criminal process couldn’t be carried out.” To this end, the report recommends “the creation of a state fund for the payment of compensation,” in collaboration with the Church.

“Public authorities have the responsibility of guaranteeing that the victims of these crimes can see that their right to justice [is fulfilled].” This should be done “through some type of public declaration in which — based on a principle of evidence presented before a special body made up of independent experts — it is stated that [a crime] has taken place, its unjust nature is expressed and those who have suffered its consequences are recognized as victims. Additionally, reparations must be agreed upon.”

Among the recommendations, however, the report doesn’t include the application of one of the main demands of the victims’ associations: the imprescriptibility of these crimes (or the voiding of the statute of limitations). The report indicates that the handling of these offences wouldn’t have a retroactive effect. Instead, it focuses on proposals for reparation and recognition of the harm done to victims. It also proposes holding a public ceremony to recognize the victims.

As a background to the problem, the report points out that “there is evidence that clericalism — strongly rooted within the Catholic Church — with the sacralization of the figure of the priest as God’s representative on Earth, the loneliness of many clerics and the associated problems of sexuality” are factors that could have led to abuse. Regarding specific risk factors, the report indicates that academic research points “to mandatory celibacy, the practice of administering penance and a certain vision of sexuality.”

“For a long time, the Catholic Church has perceived sexual abuse more as a sin of the abuser than as harm caused to the abused person. This conception has been overcome, although only recently,” the study points out.

8,013 interviews

The survey included in the report is based on 8,013 interviews, of which 4,802 were conducted by telephone and 3,211 online. A total of 113,126 calls were made, in which 23,991 people were contacted. Among those surveyed who reported abuse, the majority said that it occurred in the family environment (34.1%), as all studies tend to indicate. This was followed by public spaces (17.7%), the secular educational sphere (9.6%), the non-familial social sphere (9.5%), the workplace (7.5%), online (7.3%), religious educational institutions (5.9%), the religious sphere (4.6%), leisure spaces (4%), sporting events and activities (3%) and healthcare facilities (2.6%). That is to say, the study notes, “that practically 6.6% of all sexual abuses [in Spain] have occurred in religious establishments.”

Overall, 6.1% of people who had been sexually abused responded that the perpetrator was a Catholic priest or religious figure. And, furthermore, 29.3% of the victims indicated that they directly knew other people who had been abused by the same person. More than half of those who had been victims within the religious sphere — 51.9% to be exact — stated that they were aware of other cases of abuse committed by the same perpetrator.

The report explains that the body in charge of the investigation commissioned the survey because “without this data, it is impossible to be able to raise a voice — with a solid empirical basis — in the debate about the scope of the problem in Spain and whether the prevalence is comparable or not to what has been detected in other European countries.” The questionnaire consisted of 34 queries in total: 10 of them were addressed to all the people surveyed, while the remaining 24 were reserved for those who reported experiences of sexual abuse when they were minors.

The study analyzed the widespread problem of pedophilia within the Church by listening to victims: 487 people approached the ombudsman to provide their testimony. The majority — 334 — gave their testimony in-person. This work has served to comprehend the issue in depth. However, the objective wasn’t to quantify victims one by one, a task that seemed impossible. Rather, the commission compiled the existing numbers through two means: the cases collected by the Catholic Church itself — from dioceses, orders and the Episcopal Conference, which “didn’t always coincide with each other” — and the investigation carried out by EL PAÍS. The report is careful to emphasize that the data “doesn’t represent more than a small part of a much more widespread reality.”

Until this report began to be put together, the Catholic Church of Spain had always refused to reveal what it knew about past cases of abuse. Still, the information provided has been limited. The Ombudsman has pulled data from three places: the 70 Spanish dioceses, the 410 religious orders and the global numbers reported by the Spanish Episcopal Conference. The latter organization responded with already-known data: the offices they created in 2019 received — between then and December 31, 2022 — testimonies from 927 victims.

The dioceses, meanwhile, admitted to 318 cases. The orders reported 786. In total, 1,104 cases of sexual assault within the Church. Yet, this number doesn’t coincide with the overall number from the Episcopal Conference — there’s also no way of knowing if the cases are duplicates.

This data exceeds the cases currently registered by the EL PAÍS database (1,036). Another issue is that the Church’s responses have only provided anonymous data, which makes it impossible to cross-reference them with what has been obtained through EL PAÍS and the testimonies collected by the ombudsman. It’s difficult to come to a single conclusive figure.

While highlighting that the data is incomplete, the report is critical of the bishops who, in some cases, haven’t even responded to the requests made by the ombudsman’s commission: “There are bishops who seem to have decided to avoid the issue, who want to turn the page. They are more concerned about the consequences for the institution [than the effect that the abuses have had on the victims]. This leads them to recognize a minimum of cases… or even none, despite the existence of evidence.” There has been a “very high” number of dioceses that stated that they haven’t received any complaints of abuse: 20 out of a total of 70 across Spain.

In the responses to the report, “a clear and shared criterion regarding cases of sexual abuse isn’t detected.” Regarding the cover-up, the dioceses haven’t made any comments, “not even those that have been [explicitly] pointed out publicly by victim testimonies.” Only one bishopric has acknowledged a possible cover-up.

Few dioceses have admitted to having paid out compensation to victims. There have been some reparations paid out by the Church in civil trials in cities across Spain, ranging from as little as €5,000 to as much as €47,000 per victim, but the report highlights the lack of data in this section, “especially when compared with the information provided by the victims” who went to the ombudsman. These individuals “reported many more cases of compensation from the [Church]” compared to what has been acknowledged publicly.

 

[Playoff Beered]

On 10/27/2023 at 5:32 PM, Ilunga said:

In the context of this discussion it's very important what their motivations were, this a thread about religion and PB has claimed they were religiously motivated.

 

Let's look at this using another religion  rather than than the one you and I were  brought up with.

 

In the Hamas attacks Isreal thread, about the Mullahs in Iran I wrote...

 

"The mullahs all think they're going to heaven to bang 72 is it? virgins. I don't think Putin shares that view." 

 

Your response was...

 

"Don't believe so, it's just the bullshit they tell young teenagers to motivate them to kill others"

 

Is that using fear as indoctrination or religion?

 

Here it is seen at work...

 

 

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Let's look at this using another religion  rather than than the one you and I were  brought up with.

 

In the Hamas attacks Isreal thread, about the Mullahs in Iran I wrote...

 

"The mullahs all think they're going to heaven to bang 72 is it? virgins. I don't think Putin shares that view." 

 

Your response was...

 

"Don't believe so, it's just the bullshit they tell young teenagers to motivate them to kill others"

 

Is that using fear as indoctrination or religion?

 

Here it is seen at work...

 

 

Using schools to program the children to hate is horrific. Those kids must hear the same message at home and in their places of worship. Children are supposed to be the future. So sad. 

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Let's look at this using another religion  rather than than the one you and I were  brought up with.

 

In the Hamas attacks Isreal thread, about the Mullahs in Iran I wrote...

 

"The mullahs all think they're going to heaven to bang 72 is it? virgins. I don't think Putin shares that view." 

 

Your response was...

 

"Don't believe so, it's just the bullshit they tell young teenagers to motivate them to kill others"

 

Is that using fear as indoctrination or religion?

 

Here it is seen at work...

 

 

 

That twisting words to suit their own ends. 

From memory don't remember Mohammad or the actual writers of the Qu'ran stating that a teenage boy who straps a bomb to himself and kills people will end up in heaven with 72 virgin's.

 

And as I have pointed out many times, if those " mullahs " didn't have religion they would use some other form of motivation to manipulate people.

That's what a certain sort of person does. 

 

Again I will ask you this question if religion didn't exist do you believe that much would change ?

I know for a fact it wouldn't.

 

Humans will be humans no matter what. 

 

As for that " tweet " 

Re Antonio Guterres 

" These horrific attacks did not occur in a vacuum, they occured in the context of decades educational indoctrination of Jew hatred funded by the organisation he heads " 

Are you stating the UN has funded the hatred of Jewish people for decades ?

 

If so, provide a source for that. 

 

You might have missed this so I will post it again 

 

 

2019

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/06/1041361

 

2022 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-chief-decries-antisemitism-urges-to-stand-firm-against-hatred-and-bigotry/

 

5 days ago, the speech he is copping crap for

 

Read the whole speech 

 

https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-24/secretary-generals-remarks-the-security-council-the-middle-east 

 

" We must stand up to the forces of anti semitism, anti Muslim bigotry and all forms of hate.

 

Seems bang on the money to me.

[Playoff Beered]

20 hours ago, Ilunga said:

That twisting words to suit their own ends. 

From memory don't remember Mohammad or the actual writers of the Qu'ran stating that a teenage boy who straps a bomb to himself and kills people will end up in heaven with 72 virgin's.

 

And as I have pointed out many times, if those " mullahs " didn't have religion they would use some other form of motivation to manipulate people.

That's what a certain sort of person does. 

 

Again I will ask you this question if religion didn't exist do you believe that much would change ?

I know for a fact it wouldn't.

 

Humans will be humans no matter what. 

 

As for that " tweet " 

Re Antonio Guterres 

" These horrific attacks did not occur in a vacuum, they occured in the context of decades educational indoctrination of Jew hatred funded by the organisation he heads " 

Are you stating the UN has funded the hatred of Jewish people for decades ?

 

If so, provide a source for that. 

 

You might have missed this so I will post it again 

 

 

2019

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/06/1041361

 

2022 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-chief-decries-antisemitism-urges-to-stand-firm-against-hatred-and-bigotry/

 

5 days ago, the speech he is copping crap for

 

Read the whole speech 

 

https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-24/secretary-generals-remarks-the-security-council-the-middle-east 

 

" We must stand up to the forces of anti semitism, anti Muslim bigotry and all forms of hate.

 

Seems bang on the money to me.

 

I'm not twisting any words. Houri is a thing, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri) but I've never read the Quran so I can't say exactly how it applies, but since they didn't have bomb vests back then it obviously didn't say that.

 

We are discussing religion being used for evil, and here I give an example of it, but you just brush that off and say they would use something else.

I can unironically reply to that with that's what a certain sort of person does. 

 

That's quite the bold claim that you know for a fact that if religion didn't exist that much would change.

Imagine where we would be at if all the sciences that the Arabs developed had not been squashed by the Catholic Church in the dark ages?

Nobody persecuting people for being jewish, protestant, catholic, muslim or the biggest croc of all, scientologists.

Sure there would still be bad actors and we would still have problems, but you can't deny that religion has held us back by hundreds of years, just scientifically alone.

Well, actually it seems you are denying it.

 

As for the UN funding hatred, here you go...

UNRWA textbooks still include hate, antisemitism despite pledge to remove — watchdog

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-textbooks-still-include-hate-antisemitism-despite-pledge-to-remove-watchdog/

 

UN Teachers Call To Murder Jews, Reveals New Report

https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call-to-murder-jews-reveals-new-report/

BILD on UNRWA: ‘Germany pays for hatred of Jews in Palestinian schools’

https://unwatch.org/bild-on-unrwa-antisemitism-in-palestinian-schools-germany-continues-to-pay-for-hatred-of-jews/

 

 

And some more info on UN and Isreal relations...

 

The United Nations, Israel and Anti-Semitism

 

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/united-nations-israel-and-anti-semitism

 

 

 

And as a bonus, watch this vid where Indonesia, Libya, Nigeria, Russia, and Zimbabwe were among members of the UN’s 54-nation Economic and Social Council, a principal organ of the world body, who voted on July 22, 2022, to single out Israel as the only country in the world to be rebuked by the council this year for allegedly violating women’s rights. What a fucking joke the UN is sometimes...

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

I'm not twisting any words. Houri is a thing, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri) but I've never read the Quran so I can't say exactly how it applies, but since they didn't have bomb vests back then it obviously didn't say that.

 

We are discussing religion being used for evil, and here I give an example of it, but you just brush that off and say they would use something else.

I can unironically reply to that with that's what a certain sort of person does. 

 

That's quite the bold claim that you know for a fact that if religion didn't exist that much would change.

Imagine where we would be at if all the sciences that the Arabs developed had not been squashed by the Catholic Church in the dark ages?

Nobody persecuting people for being jewish, protestant, catholic, muslim or the biggest croc of all, scientologists.

Sure there would still be bad actors and we would still have problems, but you can't deny that religion has held us back by hundreds of years, just scientifically alone.

Well, actually it seems you are denying it.

 

As for the UN funding hatred, here you go...

UNRWA textbooks still include hate, antisemitism despite pledge to remove — watchdog

https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-textbooks-still-include-hate-antisemitism-despite-pledge-to-remove-watchdog/

 

UN Teachers Call To Murder Jews, Reveals New Report

https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call-to-murder-jews-reveals-new-report/

BILD on UNRWA: ‘Germany pays for hatred of Jews in Palestinian schools’

https://unwatch.org/bild-on-unrwa-antisemitism-in-palestinian-schools-germany-continues-to-pay-for-hatred-of-jews/

 

 

And some more info on UN and Isreal relations...

 

The United Nations, Israel and Anti-Semitism

 

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/united-nations-israel-and-anti-semitism

 

 

 

And as a bonus, watch this vid where Indonesia, Libya, Nigeria, Russia, and Zimbabwe were among members of the UN’s 54-nation Economic and Social Council, a principal organ of the world body, who voted on July 22, 2022, to single out Israel as the only country in the world to be rebuked by the council this year for allegedly violating women’s rights. What a fucking joke the UN is sometimes...

 

 

 

 

I stand corrected.

The UNRWA does indeed seem to fund teachers that incite hatred. 

I totally condemn that organisation for doing this. 

 

Regarding womens rights, any society that doesn't treat women equally should be condemned and have sanctions applied on them, though we know how successful that can be.

 

As for the rest of your post, that is in the past.

You seem to like dwelling in the past.

 

Does religion hold science back now ? 

Certainly not effectively.

 

 

The Jews were persecuted for racial reasons, anti semitism is a form of racism.

 

Pope Francis actually asked protestants and other Christian churches for forgiveness for past persecution.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-luther-idUSKCN0V316E 

 

That's an admission of making a mistake, the first step on the path to not making the same mistake again.

 

These are the things you refuse to acknowledge, that religious institutions have evolved and are confronting the mistakes of the past. 

 

As for your comment where we might be now, I know exactly where we are now, trashing the very planet we live on, killing off other species we share this planet with at an unprecedented rate.

This is the legacy we are passing on to future generations and it has nothing to do with religion.

 

[Playoff Beered]

44 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

I stand corrected.

The UNRWA does indeed seem to fund teachers that incite hatred. 

I totally condemn that organisation for doing this. 

 

Regarding womens rights, any society that doesn't treat women equally should be condemned and have sanctions applied on them, though we know how successful that can be.

 

As for the rest of your post, that is in the past.

You seem to like dwelling in the past.

 

Does religion hold science back now ? 

Certainly not effectively.

 

The Jews were persecuted for racial reasons, anti semitism is a form of racism.

 

Pope Francis actually asked protestants and other Christian churches for forgiveness for past persecution.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-luther-idUSKCN0V316E 

 

That's an admission of making a mistake, the first step on the path to not making the same mistake again.

 

These are the things you refuse to acknowledge, that religious institutions have evolved and are confronting the mistakes of the past. 

 

As for your comment where we might be now, I know exactly where we are now, trashing the very planet we live on, killing off other species we share this planet with at an unprecedented rate.

This is the legacy we are passing on to future generations and it has nothing to do with religion.

 

The UN does some good no doubt, but they are off the mark on a lot of things.

 

You are the one who asked the question...

 

"Again I will ask you this question if religion didn't exist do you believe that much would change ?

I know for a fact it wouldn't."

 

And I proceeded to give my opinion, but I'm dwelling in the past?

 

Racism is easier to teach when there is "others"

If nothing else religion is great at making "others"

 

Religious institutions have evolved?

I wonder is 440,000 still living in 2023 victims of abuse in Spain that the church is still fighting tooth and nail to sweep under the rug shares that view. See 5 or 6 posts above. 

 

Religion has more to do with trashing the planet than you might think, lots of people think they're going to different assorted heavens depending which religion they follow, so what happens here is of little concern to them. I have come across this attitude lots, especially from evangelicals. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

The UN does some good no doubt, but they are off the mark on a lot of things.

 

You are the one who asked the question...

 

"Again I will ask you this question if religion didn't exist do you believe that much would change ?

I know for a fact it wouldn't."

 

And I proceeded to give my opinion, but I'm dwelling in the past?

 

Racism is easier to teach when there is "others"

If nothing else religion is great at making "others"

 

Religious institutions have evolved?

I wonder is 440,000 still living in 2023 victims of abuse in Spain that the church is fighting tooth and nail to sweep under the rug shares that view. See 5 or 6 posts above. 

 

Religion has more to do with trashing the planet than you might think, lots of people think they're going to different assorted heavens depending which religion they follow, so what happens here is of little concern to them. I have come across this attitude lots, especially from evangelicals. 

 

The dwelling in the past comment had nothing to do with my statement that nothing would change if religion did not exist.

It was in relation to you bringing up things from hundreds of years ago.

 

As for the victims in Spain and here, all I will say is my brother was an altar boy, the rest of the story is his to tell, is that those victims are receiving acknowledgement of the crimes against them, another sign that the church is evolving. 

 

I stand by my claim that human beings will do human being things, good, bad and everything in-between if religion did, or did not exist.

Humans will always try to find reasons to rationalise their actions.

Human 101. 

 

Of course how could I get it wrong, burning fossil fuels is all religions fault.

Deforestation is all religions fault.

Capitalism has nothing to do with it.

[Playoff Beered]

18 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

The dwelling in the past comment had nothing to do with my statement that nothing would change if religion did not exist.

It was in relation to you bringing up things from hundreds of years ago.

 

Of course how could I get it wrong, burning fossil fuels is all religions fault.

Deforestation is all religions fault.

Capitalism has nothing to do with it.

 

When discussing religion, things that happened a long time ago is kinda what it's all about, or just never mention the bible or any other old dusty religious book?

 

Now you're just sounding hysterical, I never said or even implied that trashing the planet is all religions fault.

I wrote "Religion has more to do with trashing the planet than you might think" That means that it's contributing, not the only cause.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

When discussing religion, things that happened a long time ago is kinda what it's all about, or just never mention the bible or any other old dusty religious book?

 

Now you're just sounding hysterical, I never said or even implied that trashing the planet is all religions fault.

I wrote "Religion has more to do with trashing the planet than you might think" That means that it's contributing, not the only cause.

 

I have acknowledged the sins of the past.

You refuse to acknowledge both the postive impacts religion can have and the fact it has evolved, for the better.

And it continues to evolve.

 

Contributing  ? 

 

Here is a study in relation to this topic.

 

https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2020/10/15/religion-influences-relationship-environment/

 

Not only does it deal with the subject we are talking about 

 

From the article 

 

" Where religion plays a very important role in providing basic services and social cohesion " 

 

 

 

[Playoff Beered]

13 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

I have acknowledged the sins of the past.

You refuse to acknowledge both the postive impacts religion can have and the fact it has evolved, for the better.

And it continues to evolve.

 

Contributing  ? 

 

Here is a study in relation to this topic.

 

https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2020/10/15/religion-influences-relationship-environment/

 

Not only does it deal with the subject we are talking about 

 

From the article 

 

" Where religion plays a very important role in providing basic services and social cohesion " 

 

Many individuals have acknowledged it, yet the church still fight it, lots of work to be done.

 

It's more than 0% so yes contributing, you said religion doesn't have any effect on it.

 

Thanks for the link, I'll read tomorrow.

[Optimist Prime]

[Gurn]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/court-cites-clergy-penitent-privilege-in-dismissing-child-sex-abuse-lawsuit-against-mormon-church/ar-AA1jCqN0?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=b3f26a97c56747509a877cdca25c1ffa&ei=97

An Arizona judge has dismissed a high-profile child sexual abuse lawsuit against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ruling that church officials who knew that a church member was sexually abusing his daughter had no duty to report the abuse to police or social service agencies because the information was received during a spiritual confession.

 

In a ruling on Friday, Cochise County Superior Court Judge Timothy Dickerson said the state’s clergy-penitent privilege excused two bishops and several other officials with the church, widely known as the Mormon church, from the state’s child sex abuse mandatory reporting law because Paul Adams initially disclosed during a confession that he was sexually abusing his daughter.

“Church defendants were not required under the Mandatory Reporting Statute to report the abuse of Jane Doe 1 by her father because their knowledge of the abuse came from confidential communications which fall within the clergy-penitent exception,” Dickerson wrote in his decision.

Although the church excommunicated Adams, its decision to withhold his abusive behavior from civil authorities allowed him to continue abusing his daughter for seven years, during which he began abusing a second daughter, starting when she was just 6 weeks old.

Adams recorded his abuse of his daughters on video and posted the pornographic videos on the internet. The abuse stopped only when Homeland Security agents arrested Adams in 2017 in Arizona, after authorities in New Zealand and the United States traced one of the videos to him. Adams died by suicide in custody while awaiting trial.

Lynne Cadigan, an attorney representing the Adams children who filed the 2021 lawsuit, said she will appeal the ruling. “How do you explain to young victims that a rapist’s religious beliefs are more important than their right to be free from rape?” she asked. Cadigan also said the ruling, if allowed to stand, would “completely eviscerate the state’s child protection law.”

In a prepared statement, the church said, “We are pleased with the Arizona Superior Court’s decision granting summary judgment for the Church and its clergy and dismissing the plaintiffs’ claims. Contrary to some news reports and exaggerated allegations, the court found that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its clergy handled this matter consistent with Arizona law.”

 

An investigation by The Associated Press last year cited the Adams case while revealing a system the Mormon church uses to protect itself from costly lawsuits by keeping instances of serious child sexual abuse secret, at times allowing the abuse to continue for years, harming or endangering children.

The investigation highlighted the use of a church Helpline used by bishops to report instances of child sex abuse to church officials in Salt Lake City. Church workers fielding the calls keep no records, or destroy them at the end of each day, according to church officials. And they refer serious instances of abuse to attorneys for the church, who rely on a second privilege, the attorney-client privilege, to continue keeping the abuse secret.

During the course of its investigation the AP revealed that a retired Utah legislator, an attorney with the law firm of Kirton McConkie, advised Bishop John Herrod not to report Adams’ abuse to civil authorities, after Herrod contacted him through the church Helpline. In the Mormon church, a bishop's responsibilities are roughly equivalent to those of a Catholic priest, although Mormon bishops are lay people.

 

Church records disclosed during the lawsuit showed that attorney Merrill Nelson held multiple conversations with Herrod and a second bishop, Robert “Kim” Mauzy, over a two-year span and recommended they withhold the information from civil authorities, based on church doctrine and the clergy-penitent privilege.

The AP found that 33 states exempt clergy of any denomination from laws requiring professionals such as teachers, physicians, and psychotherapists from reporting information about child sex abuse to police or child welfare officials if the abuse was divulged during a confession.

Although child welfare advocates in some states have backed legislation to eliminate the privilege, lobbying by the Catholic Church, the Mormon church, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses has successfully persuaded lawmakers to maintain the exemption.

This loophole in mandatory child sex abuse reporting laws has resulted in an unknown number of predators being permitted to continue abusing children for years, despite having confessed the behavior to religious officials. In some cases, the privilege has been invoked to shield religious groups from civil and criminal liability after the abuse became known to civil authorities, the AP found.

 

Cadigan argued that the church interpreted the clergy-penitent privilege more broadly than the state legislature intended in the Adams case by applying it to others in the church, in addition to Herrod, who learned of Adams' confession. They included Adams' wife, Leizza, and members of the church disciplinary council that excommunicated Adams. But Dickerson ruled that those exchanges collectively amounted to “a confidential communication or a confession.”

[4petesake]

4 minutes ago, Gurn said:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/court-cites-clergy-penitent-privilege-in-dismissing-child-sex-abuse-lawsuit-against-mormon-church/ar-AA1jCqN0?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=b3f26a97c56747509a877cdca25c1ffa&ei=97

An Arizona judge has dismissed a high-profile child sexual abuse lawsuit against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ruling that church officials who knew that a church member was sexually abusing his daughter had no duty to report the abuse to police or social service agencies because the information was received during a spiritual confession.

 

In a ruling on Friday, Cochise County Superior Court Judge Timothy Dickerson said the state’s clergy-penitent privilege excused two bishops and several other officials with the church, widely known as the Mormon church, from the state’s child sex abuse mandatory reporting law because Paul Adams initially disclosed during a confession that he was sexually abusing his daughter.

“Church defendants were not required under the Mandatory Reporting Statute to report the abuse of Jane Doe 1 by her father because their knowledge of the abuse came from confidential communications which fall within the clergy-penitent exception,” Dickerson wrote in his decision.

Although the church excommunicated Adams, its decision to withhold his abusive behavior from civil authorities allowed him to continue abusing his daughter for seven years, during which he began abusing a second daughter, starting when she was just 6 weeks old.

Adams recorded his abuse of his daughters on video and posted the pornographic videos on the internet. The abuse stopped only when Homeland Security agents arrested Adams in 2017 in Arizona, after authorities in New Zealand and the United States traced one of the videos to him. Adams died by suicide in custody while awaiting trial.

Lynne Cadigan, an attorney representing the Adams children who filed the 2021 lawsuit, said she will appeal the ruling. “How do you explain to young victims that a rapist’s religious beliefs are more important than their right to be free from rape?” she asked. Cadigan also said the ruling, if allowed to stand, would “completely eviscerate the state’s child protection law.”

In a prepared statement, the church said, “We are pleased with the Arizona Superior Court’s decision granting summary judgment for the Church and its clergy and dismissing the plaintiffs’ claims. Contrary to some news reports and exaggerated allegations, the court found that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its clergy handled this matter consistent with Arizona law.”

 

An investigation by The Associated Press last year cited the Adams case while revealing a system the Mormon church uses to protect itself from costly lawsuits by keeping instances of serious child sexual abuse secret, at times allowing the abuse to continue for years, harming or endangering children.

The investigation highlighted the use of a church Helpline used by bishops to report instances of child sex abuse to church officials in Salt Lake City. Church workers fielding the calls keep no records, or destroy them at the end of each day, according to church officials. And they refer serious instances of abuse to attorneys for the church, who rely on a second privilege, the attorney-client privilege, to continue keeping the abuse secret.

During the course of its investigation the AP revealed that a retired Utah legislator, an attorney with the law firm of Kirton McConkie, advised Bishop John Herrod not to report Adams’ abuse to civil authorities, after Herrod contacted him through the church Helpline. In the Mormon church, a bishop's responsibilities are roughly equivalent to those of a Catholic priest, although Mormon bishops are lay people.

 

Church records disclosed during the lawsuit showed that attorney Merrill Nelson held multiple conversations with Herrod and a second bishop, Robert “Kim” Mauzy, over a two-year span and recommended they withhold the information from civil authorities, based on church doctrine and the clergy-penitent privilege.

The AP found that 33 states exempt clergy of any denomination from laws requiring professionals such as teachers, physicians, and psychotherapists from reporting information about child sex abuse to police or child welfare officials if the abuse was divulged during a confession.

Although child welfare advocates in some states have backed legislation to eliminate the privilege, lobbying by the Catholic Church, the Mormon church, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses has successfully persuaded lawmakers to maintain the exemption.

This loophole in mandatory child sex abuse reporting laws has resulted in an unknown number of predators being permitted to continue abusing children for years, despite having confessed the behavior to religious officials. In some cases, the privilege has been invoked to shield religious groups from civil and criminal liability after the abuse became known to civil authorities, the AP found.

 

Cadigan argued that the church interpreted the clergy-penitent privilege more broadly than the state legislature intended in the Adams case by applying it to others in the church, in addition to Herrod, who learned of Adams' confession. They included Adams' wife, Leizza, and members of the church disciplinary council that excommunicated Adams. But Dickerson ruled that those exchanges collectively amounted to “a confidential communication or a confession.”

 

So nice that the church is “pleased” with the court’s ruling absolving them of any legal responsibility. Hope they rot in hell for allowing the man to continue sexually assaulting his daughter for another 7 years and to begin raping another daughter at 6 months old. 
 

Good God-fearing folks, salt of the earth.

[Psycho_Path]

On 10/27/2023 at 7:24 AM, RupertKBD said:

 

 

I didn't study it as closely as you two, so I'm going to defer to PB's assessment....

 

Personally, I see those soldiers much in the same way I do religious people who commit horrific acts in the name of God. Whether their motivation comes from divine, or secular sources, they commit those acts with absolute confidence that what they're doing is right.

Oh I'm more than certain that most of them know that what they're doing is wrong (at least the ones giving the orders). Power corrupts. Doesn't matter the institution. The nature of humanity

[Gnarcore]

[Gurn]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/how-jesus-came-to-resemble-a-white-european/ar-AA1k8QrX?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=bd229988361b4e269b9908a3d317628c&ei=51

"

The portrayal of Jesus as a white, European man has come under renewed scrutiny during this period of introspection over the legacy of racism in society.

As protesters called for the removal of Confederate statues in the U.S., activist Shaun King went further, suggesting that murals and artwork depicting “white Jesus” should “come down.”

His concerns about the depiction of Christ and how it is used to uphold notions of white supremacy are not isolated. Prominent scholars and the archbishop of Canterbury have called to reconsider Jesus’ portrayal as a white man.

As a European Renaissance art historian, I study the evolving image of Jesus Christ from A.D. 1350 to 1600. Some of the best-known depictions of Christ, from Leonardo da Vinci’s “Last Supper” to Michelangelo’s “Last Judgment” in the Sistine Chapel, were produced during this period.

But the all-time most-reproduced image of Jesus comes from another period. It is Warner Sallman’s light-eyed, light-haired “Head of Christ” from 1940. Sallman, a former commercial artist who created art for advertising campaigns, successfully marketed this picture worldwide

Sallman’s ‘Head of Christ’

Through Sallman’s partnerships with two Christian publishing companies, one Protestant and one Catholic, the Head of Christ came to be included on everything from prayer cards to stained glass, faux oil paintings, calendars, hymnals and night lights.

In search of the holy face

The historical Jesus likely had the brown eyes and skin of other first-century Jews from Galilee, a region in biblical Israel. But no one knows exactly what Jesus looked like. There are no known images of Jesus from his lifetime, and while the Old Testament Kings Saul and David are explicitly called tall and handsome in the Bible, there is little indication of Jesus’ appearance in the Old or New Testaments.

The Good Shepherd.’

Joseph Wilpert

Even these texts are contradictory: The Old Testament prophet Isaiah reads that the coming savior “had no beauty or majesty,” while the Book of Psalms claims he was “fairer than the children of men,” the word “fair” referring to physical beauty.

 

The earliest images of Jesus Christ emerged in the first through third centuries A.D., amidst concerns about idolatry. They were less about capturing the actual appearance of Christ than about clarifying his role as a ruler or as a savior.

To clearly indicate these roles, early Christian artists often relied on syncretism, meaning they combined visual formats from other cultures.

-------------------------------------------------------------

The other 3/4ths of the story at link.

[Optimist Prime]

Just a moderating note: we are trying to get folks to not copy and past entire articles, but rather choose a few key sentences and post the link. Thank you. I do appreciate what you are adding here, just a technical issue. 

[Maninthebox]

So, Jesus had a good tan? I mean, he would, wouldn't he?