Is Pettersson an elite/superstar forward? Is he up there with McDavid, Matthews etc?

[HKSR]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

IMHAO a player must lead his club to at least one Cup to be considered truly great. If McWhiner Baby isn’t a leader on a Cup winner then he stays in the category with guys like Dionne, Perrault, and other great offensive players who never won. 
The truly greatest players all amazing. So they get separated by the ability to take their club to a Cup. 

I can't agree with that.  When a player puts up 153 points in a single season (4th highest total ever other than a player named Gretzky, Lemieux, or Yzerman), he is a generational talent.  Period.  The 5 Art Ross trophies also solidify that.  Heck, I wouldn't put it past him to storm back and win the Art Ross again this year.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, D.B Cooper said:

All that is awesome.  
But again, there are still better dmen in the league/world.   That means he isn’t generational.  

Nope. Huggable One is clearly the best D in the league right now. Most points and best plus/minus. 
The Mighty Quinn will lead us to multiple Cups, while winning the Norris and Conn Smythe multiple times too. And then all will inhale from the empties!!!

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, HKSR said:

I can't agree with that.  When a player puts up 153 points in a single season (4th highest total ever other than a player named Gretzky, Lemieux, or Yzerman), he is a generational talent.  Period.  The 5 Art Ross trophies also solidify that.  Heck, I wouldn't put it past him to storm back and win the Art Ross again this year.

Ask the player. McBaby Diver will say he needs to lead his club to the Cup to be included in the same category with the all time greats. Lots of players have put up big seasons. It’s the Cups that separates these greatest players. 

[HKSR]

22 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Ask the player. McBaby Diver will say he needs to lead his club to the Cup to be included in the same category with the all time greats. Lots of players have put up big seasons. It’s the Cups that separates these greatest players. 

No player in the 100+ year history of the NHL other than Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, and Steve Yzerman has put up more points in a single season than McDavid.  Lots of players have put up big seasons, but nobody else has put up more than McDavid other than those 3.  That's generational talent.

[PeteyBOI]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Quinn Hughes is a generational talent.

Petey is a super duper star.

Miller is a superstar.

Hronek is a star. 
 

Demko is:

if i can read between the lines, this is the 100% truth... and kind of funny.

[Got the Babych]

No Petey is not elite. He is a star, a very good player.

To me an elite player is pretty well dominant from the get go and drives play regardless of the situation or even linemates.

 

For the record, I put the Twins and Naslund in the same category. None of them dominated until they were put in the right situation and things "clicked".

 

Petey will improve and will probably play at an elite level for a few years, but elite players carry their teams and don't wait for the team to improve around them.

[Nucker67]

Generational - Hughes

Elite - Demko

Superstar - Pettersson, Miller

Star - Boeser, Kuzmenko, Hronek

[Westcoasting]

1 hour ago, HKSR said:

No player in the 100+ year history of the NHL other than Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, and Steve Yzerman has put up more points in a single season than McDavid.  Lots of players have put up big seasons, but nobody else has put up more than McDavid other than those 3.  That's generational talent.

It’s crazy what he has done and is still doing, definitely generational

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, HKSR said:

No player in the 100+ year history of the NHL other than Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, and Steve Yzerman has put up more points in a single season than McDavid.  Lots of players have put up big seasons, but nobody else has put up more than McDavid other than those 3.  That's generational talent.

Nope. McWhiner is not generational. He must lead his club to a Cup before he’s included with the greats. 

[Alflives]

38 minutes ago, Nucker67 said:

Generational - Hughes

Elite - Demko

Superstar - Pettersson, Miller

Star - Boeser, Kuzmenko, Hronek

Bingo!

[HKSR]

24 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Nope. McWhiner is not generational. He must lead his club to a Cup before he’s included with the greats. 

So Quinn Hughes cannot be generational either.  So nope, the post above is incorrect. 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

IMHAO a player must lead his club to at least one Cup to be considered truly great. If McWhiner Baby isn’t a leader on a Cup winner then he stays in the category with guys like Dionne, Perrault, and other great offensive players who never won. 
The truly greatest players all amazing. So they get separated by the ability to take their club to a Cup. 

Don't think we can say that as much anymore,  but it is somewhat relevant.   Even odds, a 20 year career should have around 67% chance but if your that good shouldn't it go up?!  That said look at Ray Borque.    If he didn't come back one last time, he'd of been right there, or ahead of Dionne.    Refuse to read Messier's book, but he's absolutely right, nobody wins alone in this game.    HHOF criteria aside from a few guys like Dionne, used to mean cups.   It doesn't follow that criteria anymore, and hasn't for decades.     Even Ovi could have missed out.    But didn't.   Joe Thorton is the recent modern era example, maybe the Sedins too, of guys who didn't get there.     Still great players.  

 

There are loads of guys who won multiple cups but will never get a glance at the HHOF too.   Keane for awhile, and Claude Lemuiex, we're locks at either going to the final, or winning a cup or both.    More recently Justin Williams.    Keane was just a great support player.    For sure some luck is involved these days.    Even in a 21-24 team league, good chance a 20 plus year career meant maybe one or maybe zero cups. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by IBatch

[WHL rocks]

No one compares to McDavid. 

 

Pettersson is 2 levels below. There is the Pettersson level then a level above with guys like MacKinnon, Q Hughes, Draisaitl, Makar,  Matthews... then McDavid stands alone at the top

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, MidKnight Ego said:

im pretty sure that rivalry was because of draper and Lemieux... every game between them was a must watch... i watched alot of Philli games... lindros was the best for 3 years hands down...

 

and Lidstrom he was good so was niedermyer, But if i was picking a player between those 3 Id pick Pronger first... why i Put forsberg in there was because he was the first line center and sakic was second line, which is crazy... those pre cap era teams were stacked...Just silly things like adding borque Hasek...

 

Detroit had Hull,Coffey,Federov,Lidstrom,Yzerman,Robitaille,shanahan,Larianov,Chelios,Datsyuk,Hasek,Draper,Duschene,Olausson,Mccarty, and a rookie avery... whats that 11 HOF players and duschene almost made it right?

 

that was all in one year LOL 2001-2002

 

also adam oated was/is criminally underrated in the same way i see people talk about howerchuk... he was better than Hull IMO, made everyone better including Joe Juneau LOL

Yes it had a lot to do with that play.  But it also had to do with two teams that were a tier above the rest.   Like the Battle of Alberta, you have to have elite teams going hammer and tong at each other.   Best rivalry in the 90's in pro sports.   DET was awesome for years before COL came to town.   Just couldn't do it in the post season.   They met 7 times in the post season during that era, COL 4, DET 3... and 5 cups between them.    Dallas and NJ won the others.   

 

Detroit had two completely different teams.   Their back to back cups .. Konstantinov was their number one D.   And they were awfully mean.   Shanny said it best "that 2002 team, better of won in four, because by game 5 or 6 they'd be limping"   ... "we used to pick one or two stars and play them right on the edge, and either knock them out of the series (injure them) or take them out of the series (like we did Housley in the early 90's)..  They also were a mid level pay club too (97-98).   That 2002 club was for sure  bought.     Osgood is closer to the HHOF than many think too.  Has more wins then Lundqvist under the old format.  Also was their front runner two years in a row, Zetterberg barely beat him out.  3 finals, two as a starter.  

 

Edit:   Their rivalry was actually tame compared to the Battle of Alberta as well.   The rare time EDM slipped, CAL went all the way.     The fact they actually managed to create such a great roster to compete with that EDM team, is pretty remarkable.  

 

As for Lindros.   Yes I agree he probably the best player for 3 years ... Mario wasn't around, not in the way he would pose a huge challenge but yet did as did others.   Only won his hardware in a shortened season though, and a lot of us (me included) were correct in the idea he couldn't skate with his head down and just toy with boy bodies like he did in junior.    Lindros should have kept his head up or learned to play with it up, today he'd have a field day, even looking at the puck. 

 

Funny thing  ... everyone wrote off DET before the puck dropped.   Lindros just handled Messier and Gretzky.    It was "his time".   Shanny again " we knew within one shift, we would beat them".     And they did.    There was no repeat affair although it looked like maybe there would be until Steven's did his thing.   Then it was over.   Before it really started. 

 

COL also had some amazing players.  Sakic, Forsberg, Hedjuk, Foote, Blake, Borque,  Roy etc etc ... 2001.   And beat them one more time in the post season.   Those two teams were something, as we definitely know during the WCE era.   And that was when they were winding down. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by IBatch

[Alflives]

58 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Don't think we can say that as much anymore,  but it is somewhat relevant.   Even odds, a 20 year career should have around 67% chance but if your that good shouldn't it go up?!  That said look at Ray Borque.    If he didn't come back one last time, he'd of been right there, or ahead of Dionne.    Refuse to read Messier's book, but he's absolutely right, nobody wins alone in this game.    HHOF criteria aside from a few guys like Dionne, used to mean cups.   It doesn't follow that criteria anymore, and hasn't for decades.     Even Ovi could have missed out.    But didn't.   Joe Thorton is the recent modern era example, maybe the Sedins too, of guys who didn't get there.     Still great players.  

 

There are loads of guys who won multiple cups but will never get a glance at the HHOF too.   Keane for awhile, and Claude Lemuiex, we're locks at either going to the final, or winning a cup or both.    More recently Justin Williams.    Keane was just a great support player.    For sure some luck is involved these days.    Even in a 21-24 team league, good chance a 20 plus year career meant maybe one or maybe zero cups. 

IMHAO the greatest players rank themselves by their ability to lead a team to the Cup. Lots of guys win Cups. But the greatest players have phenomenal regular season success (McWhiner Baby included) and they lead their club to the Cup with great playoffs. If McDiver never leads a club to a Cup he personally (IMHAO) will rank himself a tier below the greats and be in with Dionne, Perrault, Howerchuck and anthers who could put up big numbers but couldn’t get that Cup. 
IMHAO Bourque was great. But he didn’t lead a club to a Cup. So he drops a notch below other equally as great D who do lead their clubs to Cups. 

[LillStrimma]

4 hours ago, HKSR said:

No player in the 100+ year history of the NHL other than Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, and Steve Yzerman has put up more points in a single season than McDavid.  Lots of players have put up big seasons, but nobody else has put up more than McDavid other than those 3.  That's generational talent.

I’ve seen claim about McDavid only goes for the points and leave the defence to others.

is that correct?

Par example Petey would have been maybe a 120p player from season 3 if Miller hadn’t arrived. 

Think of Hughes/Petey collaborating the whole season… Put Petey in Millers place and you can see Peteys points go up to McDavids levels.

I’ve said it a long time now.

Miller and Petey are not at the same level. 
You can watch it for yourself if him and Petey switch place, Petey on the left and let Miller be stale on the right side.

 

 

 

 

[HKSR]

55 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

I’ve seen claim about McDavid only goes for the points and leave the defence to others.

is that correct?

Par example Petey would have been maybe a 120p player from season 3 if Miller hadn’t arrived. 

Think of Hughes/Petey collaborating the whole season… Put Petey in Millers place and you can see Peteys points go up to McDavids levels.

I’ve said it a long time now.

Miller and Petey are not at the same level. 
You can watch it for yourself if him and Petey switch place, Petey on the left and let Miller be stale on the right side.

 

 

 

 

Petey is still not McDavid in terms of talent.  That's what this discussion is about.  Petey is not a generational talent no matter how little defence he plays.

[Westcoasting]

4 hours ago, Alflives said:

Bingo!

Hughes hasn’t won a cup so no way he is generational… in fact he hasn’t even won an award yet so maybe don’t be too fast in handing out claims of how great a player is.

[LillStrimma]

20 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Petey is still not McDavid in terms of talent.  That's what this discussion is about.  Petey is not a generational talent no matter how little defence he plays.

It’s much about how the team plays and the coach let players play.

What I’ve seen is that McDavid tend to depend on his speed. Shut his speed out and he gets invisible.

I’ve never said Petey is generational.

He is at MacKinnon or Matthews level.

Just below McDavid.

But how is it if we weigh in the defensive play? 
That was my question.

[Alflives]

Just now, Westcoasting said:

Hughes hasn’t won a cup so no way he is generational… in fact he hasn’t even won an award yet so maybe don’t be too fast in handing out claims of how great a player is.

Quinn Hughes is the best D man in the league this season. Not arguable. 
Accept we have a generational player. 

[Westcoasting]

Just now, Alflives said:

Quinn Hughes is the best D man in the league this season. Not arguable. 
Accept we have a generational player. 

He is a great player but nothing I would call generational. Hopefully he can win a Norris this year to help support your dream!

[HKSR]

10 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

It’s much about how the team plays and the coach let players play.

What I’ve seen is that McDavid tend to depend on his speed. Shut his speed out and he gets invisible.

I’ve never said Petey is generational.

He is at MacKinnon or Matthews level.

Just below McDavid.

But how is it if we weigh in the defensive play? 
That was my question.

When a player has the highest production in a single season other than Gretzky, Lemieux, or Yzerman, nobody cares about his defensive ability.

[HKSR]

11 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Quinn Hughes is the best D man in the league this season. Not arguable. 
Accept we have a generational player. 

Nope, he hasn't helped the Canucks win a cup.  He can't be generational based on your requirements. 

[Ballisticsports]

A generational player is basically a player that you see once in a generation. They are players that are a full length above anyone else in the league in their era, players who literally dominate the game. They are few and far between.

 

So many want to make generational a common  thing

There are lots of elite players that stand out

If there has to be debate on generational talent, then it is because they aren't, and as mentioned above, that generational players are far and few between, and will be heads above their peers 

[LillStrimma]

25 minutes ago, HKSR said:

When a player has the highest production in a single season other than Gretzky, Lemieux, or Yzerman, nobody cares about his defensive ability.

Ahh, so you just accept if Petey is beside Hughes and Miller and just produce points while the team suffers? 
So you’re talking about 15 mill to Petey?

Edited December 31, 2023 by LillStrimma