Is Pettersson an elite/superstar forward? Is he up there with McDavid, Matthews etc?

[Tusk]

2 minutes ago, Dizzle said:

 

His ask will be based on a percentage of the cap as per what comparable players around the league are signing for. If the cap goes up, his ask goes up. It's simple math.

 

That being said, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes. Maybe he ends up taking a bit less to play for the team now that we're winning, or maybe he decides he hates Vancouver and doesn't sign no matter what the offer. 

The problem with this idea... He should be asking for JT's percentage then, or Quinns. He's already way over Brock's. So... look around at a team like the Rangers, and see how they do it.

Toronto fucked it all up, if thats where you are looking.

[Dizzle]

10 minutes ago, Tusk said:

The problem with this idea... He should be asking for JT's percentage then, or Quinns. He's already way over Brock's. So... look around at a team like the Rangers, and see how they do it.

Toronto fucked it all up, if thats where you are looking.

 

 Petterson is a premier player who is going to get a premier contract UNLESS he takes a massive discount. The guy isn't really comparable to JT (who is on a sweetheart cap hit currently and is significantly older), Hughes (who is probably the best value contract in the league right now) or Brock who is having a fantastic season and is one o my favourite players but come on... that's one's not close. 

 

NYR have Panarin signed at 11.64 four years ago so.... 

[Tusk]

32 minutes ago, Dizzle said:

 

 Petterson is a premier player who is going to get a premier contract UNLESS he takes a massive discount. The guy isn't really comparable to JT (who is on a sweetheart cap hit currently and is significantly older), Hughes (who is probably the best value contract in the league right now) or Brock who is having a fantastic season and is one o my favourite players but come on... that's one's not close. 

 

NYR have Panarin signed at 11.64 four years ago so.... 

We win the Cup..... HELL YA petey gets at least %13 of the cap. We might still get another next year. After that we are dropping people but some of our youth will be ready.

[Hammertime]

I don't think Datsyuk lit the world on fire as an elite super star at the time there were much brighter stars in the league. But Datsyuk did what it took to win. I see that in Pete. He'll probably never win a scoring title and I don't think he cares as long as he gets to lift the cup. 

[Canuckleheads Fan]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:22 AM, Elias Pettersson said:

 A 100 point player should be considered elite.  We only had 11 of them last year, so you would think there are at least 11 elite players in the NHL.  Petey is still on pace for around 100 points this year too.  The biggest problem with Petey is his consistency.  That's why he is not yet at the level of a McDavid or a MacKinnon or a Kucherov.

 

We will see if he can get that consistency in the future.  If not, then we still have a 100 point two way centre on the team.  

 

Remember, the Sedins weren't "elite" until they were 28-29 years old.  Same with Naslund.  The only elite player we have ever had that was elite from the very beginning of his career was Pavel Bure.  He became a superstar after his first shift in the NHL.  So, give Petey some time here.  He may get there too...

I agree with your hundred-point assessment, but disagree with consistency. The only time EP has played with wingers that make him better is when he's with the Lotto Line. Last year, Petey made Kuzy, more of a playmaker when in the KHL, into a 39-goal scorer, so he made Kuzy better. For some reason Kuzy is a diminished third liner this year, though I just watched the NYR and NYI games on DVR and saw flashes of the old Kuzy, so hopefully he turns things around. When Petey is with legitimate top-six wingers he is usually as consisted as rain in Seattle in the winter. Also recognize that Petey has played through injuries both this year and in years past that have robbed him of some aspect of his game, his one-timer, or a step in speed, his ability to work the wall, faceoffs, etc., but he has always gone out there and gamely given his all, never blaming a lack of production on an injury.

 

One poster suggested that Petey's not physical enough to be considered elite, well I don't recall Gretzky laying out guys, yet nobody would argue that he was not elite. Lafleur, Dionne, Bossy, all elite, none of them were physical play drivers, yet all found a way to dominate play while on the ice with speed, or hockey IQ, vision, or the ability to finish. All played with legit top six wingers which helped to make them elite. I would consider the twins elite for the same reason, when they were on the ice they were always a threat to score, and found ways to control play through their wonder twin powers.

 

The truth is that both Petey and Miller are elite. Miller is one of very few players in the past ten years with his size, skillset, and production. I recall Canucks Central did a search for other players with his size and stats, and there have been very few in the past decade who could compete with what JT's done, and all were elite in their time in the league. 

 

Petey is putting up unbelievable numbers for a 25-year-old. Someone suggested that MacKinnon is elite but EP is not, well MacKinnon didn't have his first 100 point season until last year, when he was 27. Eichel, 27 this hear, has never been close to 100 points, and both have played with better wingers as regular linemates during the past few years. If all things remain consistent, Petey will put up his second 100 point season as a 25-year-old, how is that not elite? Plus EP has gotten better, stronger, more resilient, and added new elements to his game every year. He is going to be a late bloomer because he was so thin when he came into the league, but by 27 he will be in the Heart conversation every year through his mid-30s.

 

So, is Petey elite? When matched with Brock and JT, that line has dominated all three games since their reunion, and now we get to see just how elite EP is. He's not a generational talent, but there is no doubt that he's elite.

 

[IBatch]

 

Nylander.   Guess TO just wants star power, and not to win a cup (anytime soon anyways).  13% of their starting cap next season.   Wow.  You will be really hard pressed to find many forwards (players) making that or more.   When they signed their deals.   There are a few, most are generational or franchise players.   Note it says 13.77% on capfriendly.   That will go down to 13% or so after cap goes up 5% or so.   Ugly either way though. 

 

There is one that stands out, that's Panarin.  It's a 7 year deal, but 14.29%.   Signed pre-covid (just).   

 

A six year deal:  Rantanen 11.35 

Five year deal: Mathews 14.64 

Five year deal: Aho 10.38

Five year deal: Guentzal 7.55 (JR signed) 

 

Barkov 12.27 

Mathew Tckchuk 11.52

Stamkos 11.64 

Point 11.66

Kucherov  11.95

Pastrnak  13.64% 

Stone 11.95% 

Barzal 11.09%

 

(Of the above guys Barkov term UFA deals etc, EPs really only a lot better then one player...they all bring something different...so does EP though). 

 

Schiefflle 8.35% 

If we want to go further back:

Benn 13.01%  

Crosby 14.5 (12 year deal) 

 

Toronto just can't seem to help themselves.   EP has put himself into the conversation, for 13% plus of the cap.   Not many guys get that, and it's usually reserved for the best scorers/hardware winners.   Not always.  Panarin and Nylander are outliers.    

 

In club history, only two players got 13% or more.  Naslund (3 time first team all-star, Pearson winner, top goal scorer on the best line in hockey at the time, on a medium term deal) and Luongo.   A top 3 goalie his entire time with us. 

 

As for D's.    EK's takes the cake at 14.47%.  Doughty's wasn't far off at 13.84%.   So far, they set the high bar for D's.   Then you've got Hedmans at 10.79.    RFA Makar, 10 and change.   

 

Anyone notice a pattern?   The best teams, don't pay their stars as much as other teams, desperate to hold onto what they've got, aside from NYR.     Also will point out, EPs got one year in his RFA deal still.   This could go on...and on ... and on.   Hopefully not.   12, even with Nylander, is still a very, very high bar and cost to the team, and puts EP at or near the top paid guys in the league.   If he signs this season, it will be recorded over 14% of the cap.   Next year 13.69% or something like that.    

Edited January 11 by IBatch

[Foamys Ghost]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

 

Anyone notice a pattern?   The best teams, don't pay their stars as much as other teams, desperate to hold onto what they've got, aside from NYR.     Also will point out, EPs got one year in his RFA deal still.   This could go on...and on ... and on.   Hopefully not.   12, even with Nylander, is still a very, very high bar and cost to the team, and puts EP at or near the top paid guys in the league.   If he signs this season, it will be recorded over 14% of the cap.   Next year 13.69% or something like that.    

Thanks for doing such a great piece of research on this post.  It provides some excellent data for comparisons and a better way to analyze than raw dollars in contracts.  I'm not convinced that Petey is a 14%,  but 12-13.5% for sure.

[Canuckleheads Fan]

Yup, after being in on ALL 4 goals in the Pittsburg game, scoring an amazing OT winner, Petey proving once again that he IS elite. $12 - 12.5M right there.

[LillStrimma]

9 hours ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Yup, after being in on ALL 4 goals in the Pittsburg game, scoring an amazing OT winner, Petey proving once again that he IS elite. $12 - 12.5M right there.

Some talked about 100 points needed to be elite.

It was ten years ago Crosby did over 100 points.

[IBatch]

 

37 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

Some talked about 100 points needed to be elite.

It was ten years ago Crosby did over 100 points.

We all know Crosby is a living legend.  

[LillStrimma]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

 

We all know Crosby is a living legend.  

You don’t have to quote me on that. 
Crosby has shown that you can be elite without over 100 points seasons.

[IBatch]

2 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

You don’t have to quote me on that. 
Crosby has shown that you can be elite without over 100 points seasons.

For sure.  

[Canuckleheads Fan]

1 hour ago, LillStrimma said:

Some talked about 100 points needed to be elite.

It was ten years ago when Crosby did over 100 points.

Crosby has been elite since he broke into the NHL, he is greater than elite, he was generational. Crosby has also been an amazing ambassador for hockey and Canada. Every person in Canada knew who he was when he was 13 when he was touted as "the next Gretzky." What incredible pressure for a kid, yet he shouldered it like a champ. I have been a Crosby admirer since he was a rookie, the first time he scored 100 points. I only wish he'd have had the chance to play in Canada, but I'm so happy he won gold for Canada at the Olympics and the Worlds. One thing to remember, Crosby has always had Malkin on his team, often as a winger, Petey has only ever played with somebody that good when he's played with JT.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Canuckleheads Fan said:

Crosby has been elite since he broke into the NHL, he is greater than elite, he was generational. Crosby has also been an amazing ambassador for hockey and Canada. Every person in Canada knew who he was when he was 13 when he was touted as "the next Gretzky." What incredible pressure for a kid, yet he shouldered it like a champ. I have been a Crosby admirer since he was a rookie, the first time he scored 100 points. I only wish he'd have had the chance to play in Canada, but I'm so happy he won gold for Canada at the Olympics and the Worlds. One thing to remember, Crosby has always had Malkin on his team, often as a winger, Petey has only ever played with somebody that good when he's played with JT.

Malkin has centered their second line since the start...They don't play on the same line.  They've both had a myriad of wingers over the years too.    A big snub not naming Malkin as one of the top 100 players all-time, maybe durability played into that not sure.    But they both stole and earned first and second team all-star votes from each other.   Still not happy about Malkins cheap shot on Mitchell.   But can appreciate that he's been a top center in the league when he plays, most of his career too.   Sure they play on the PP together, but aside from that, nope, they have their own line and have since the start. 

 

As far as the next Gretzky, the biggest hype i've seen to date on that, is Lindros, then Crosby.   Crosby wasn't named the Next One.   As in the One to steal the mantle from Mario and Gretzky.   

 

Edit:  It's not like its ever happened, funny thing is, PIT fans would rather see Crosby on the wing when it's done.   For whatever reason, it doesn't work. 

[wai_lai416]

On 1/11/2024 at 6:20 AM, IBatch said:

 

Nylander.   Guess TO just wants star power, and not to win a cup (anytime soon anyways).  13% of their starting cap next season.   Wow.  You will be really hard pressed to find many forwards (players) making that or more.   When they signed their deals.   There are a few, most are generational or franchise players.   Note it says 13.77% on capfriendly.   That will go down to 13% or so after cap goes up 5% or so.   Ugly either way though. 

 

There is one that stands out, that's Panarin.  It's a 7 year deal, but 14.29%.   Signed pre-covid (just).   

 

A six year deal:  Rantanen 11.35 

Five year deal: Mathews 14.64 

Five year deal: Aho 10.38

Five year deal: Guentzal 7.55 (JR signed) 

 

Barkov 12.27 

Mathew Tckchuk 11.52

Stamkos 11.64 

Point 11.66

Kucherov  11.95

Pastrnak  13.64% 

Stone 11.95% 

Barzal 11.09%

 

(Of the above guys Barkov term UFA deals etc, EPs really only a lot better then one player...they all bring something different...so does EP though). 

 

Schiefflle 8.35% 

If we want to go further back:

Benn 13.01%  

Crosby 14.5 (12 year deal) 

 

Toronto just can't seem to help themselves.   EP has put himself into the conversation, for 13% plus of the cap.   Not many guys get that, and it's usually reserved for the best scorers/hardware winners.   Not always.  Panarin and Nylander are outliers.    

 

In club history, only two players got 13% or more.  Naslund (3 time first team all-star, Pearson winner, top goal scorer on the best line in hockey at the time, on a medium term deal) and Luongo.   A top 3 goalie his entire time with us. 

 

As for D's.    EK's takes the cake at 14.47%.  Doughty's wasn't far off at 13.84%.   So far, they set the high bar for D's.   Then you've got Hedmans at 10.79.    RFA Makar, 10 and change.   

 

Anyone notice a pattern?   The best teams, don't pay their stars as much as other teams, desperate to hold onto what they've got, aside from NYR.     Also will point out, EPs got one year in his RFA deal still.   This could go on...and on ... and on.   Hopefully not.   12, even with Nylander, is still a very, very high bar and cost to the team, and puts EP at or near the top paid guys in the league.   If he signs this season, it will be recorded over 14% of the cap.   Next year 13.69% or something like that.    

i think there are plenty of players when signed are 13% or more on the cap

 

Kane

Toews

Panarin 

tavares

marner

huberdeau is close

kopitar

eichel

benn

 

if you go down the list there are actually a decent amount i'm going to guess there's like 15-20 ppl signed at 13% or higher.. the franchise/generational are closer to 14-15% +

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, wai_lai416 said:

i think there are plenty of players when signed are 13% or more on the cap

 

Kane

Toews

Panarin 

tavares

marner

huberdeau is close

kopitar

eichel

benn

 

if you go down the list there are actually a decent amount i'm going to guess there's like 15-20 ppl signed at 13% or higher.. the franchise/generational are closer to 14-15% +

 

Is Eichel the only one of these guys to win the Cup after his big % of cap contract kicked in? 

[wai_lai416]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Is Eichel the only one of these guys to win the Cup after his big % of cap contract kicked in? 

i mean there are plenty that kicked in after their 12% of the cap contract kicked in. i don't think 1% is going to make a difference

[Alflives]

Just now, wai_lai416 said:

i mean there are plenty that kicked in after their 12% of the cap contract kicked in. i don't think 1% is going to make a difference

Maybe not, especially now we are thru the Covid cap. But still I’m pretty sure it’s only Eichel who has the Cup on a 10 mil or more contract. IMHAO a club can have one guy making a big % of the cap and still win, but two or more are they can’t build out enough depth for the playoffs. 

[wai_lai416]

32 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Maybe not, especially now we are thru the Covid cap. But still I’m pretty sure it’s only Eichel who has the Cup on a 10 mil or more contract. IMHAO a club can have one guy making a big % of the cap and still win, but two or more are they can’t build out enough depth for the playoffs. 

there are many instance with teams having 3 players eating close to 30% of the cap and still win the cup. like i've said it's finding value in the middle tier players and having those out perform their contract that's going to make the difference

[Crimson JH]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

 

We all know Crosby is a living legend.  

Petey was in a few ASG, why is that one a blank… Oh and he have the Calder too

[Alflives]

27 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

there are many instance with teams having 3 players eating close to 30% of the cap and still win the cup. like i've said it's finding value in the middle tier players and having those out perform their contract that's going to make the difference

Fact remains only one club has a Cup with a 10 mil cap hit and that’s last year eith Vegas and Eichel.

The Empties are still saying Petey will sign at 9.5 x 3. 

[wai_lai416]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Fact remains only one club has a Cup with a 10 mil cap hit and that’s last year eith Vegas and Eichel.

The Empties are still saying Petey will sign at 9.5 x 3. 

lol well we might as well say no one won a cup in 2005 with players over 7mil? and eventually 8mil 9mil 10mil 

[LillStrimma]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

Fact remains only one club has a Cup with a 10 mil cap hit and that’s last year eith Vegas and Eichel.

The Empties are still saying Petey will sign at 9.5 x 3. 

Benning screwed that up. If he had signed both Petey and Hughes for 8 years it would have been perfect but h blew it. Now it’s too late and we can do nothing to get those years back. 
That is for the next period with tanking and I hope that is more than ten years away.

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, LillStrimma said:

Benning screwed that up. If he had signed both Petey and Hughes for 8 years it would have been perfect but h blew it. Now it’s too late and we can do nothing to get those years back. 
That is for the next period with tanking and I hope that is more than ten years away.

Yup. Benning’s no plan, especially about the cap, cost us 8 x 8 for both these generational talents. 

[kettlevalley]

Petey will get what Petey wants.  What does Petey want though?  I think he wants control of his destiny.  He will get more money if he signs max and you all are discussing that.  Think this is another shorter deal.