Is Pettersson an elite/superstar forward? Is he up there with McDavid, Matthews etc?

[Heretic]

Even the media has an ego trip on him:

"Connor McDavid made history in Edmonton’s 5-2 win over Philadelphia on Tuesday, becoming the fifth-fastest player in NHL history to reach 900 points after scoring a goal and four assists in his 602nd game"


How does being 5th make history???

If he was 1st - then sure - that's historic.

 

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Heretic said:

Even the media has an ego trip on him:

"Connor McDavid made history in Edmonton’s 5-2 win over Philadelphia on Tuesday, becoming the fifth-fastest player in NHL history to reach 900 points after scoring a goal and four assists in his 602nd game"


How does being 5th make history???

If he was 1st - then sure - that's historic.

 

 

Bingo. Have to keep the hype going to keep advertiser's happy.

 

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

I don’t hope for anything, either up or down. I’m realistic.

I know that both Petey and his agent knows his value so fans trying to diminish Petey as soon as they can is just ridiculus and doesn’t do anything good.

If it was a realistic discussion I’m fine with it but talking 10 mill, trade him for four firsts or something silly like that I’m out.

You need to be more realistic too.  If you actually listened to his agent, he said after last season "Mathew Tckchuk's deal would be a reasonable comp".     This was in reference to where his contract would come in at, after Barzal signed his (another calder winner).. and MT signed theirs.    Expect EP to get his piece of the raise, which is 5%, and maybe some for taxes too.   10.5-11.25.   Is fair.    As is expecting the sort of line-mates he's working with too.   If you're going to get 13 plus % of the starting contract cap hit, you need to expect to drive a line.    We can't be paying for potential anymore either.   At his age, what you see, is likely what you get aside from maybe one or two outlier seasons.   

Edited January 3 by IBatch

[IBatch]

21 hours ago, CanuckMan said:

Most people agree that Mcdavid is better than Petterson. So if Mcdavid gets 12.5 mil a year, I don’t think Petey should get any more than 11 mil. If he was a team player like Mackinnon was, and actually wants to win then he should take 10 mil and leave some money on the table to add to the team. 
 

one thing I’ve noticed. There’s a lot of players out there that never win the cup. Wouldn’t it make sense one year for all the UFA’s of that year to sign 1 year small dollar deals and load up a team just to win the cup. Yes they’d have to leave a lot of money on the table. But they would win the cup. Stack a team so much it would be impossible to lose.

Mckinnon signed his deal, then he exploded.  If he exploded a year before, you can absolutely bank on his deal been a lot more.  And the most hysterical thing "I'd do it again every time and will do it again"  was a reply from NM, and said at the time - no freaking way he signs and leaves money on the table, which of course he did not.   Was the highest paid player for a year anyways or was it two.    You need to go back, look at what he'd done, and look at what he signed for.   They actually still paid him based on potential really.   Then he exploded and it became one of the best deals in hockey.   EP isn't going to score 140-150 points a year, which he pretty much have to do signing at 10.5 (and most would consider that team friendly), for it to even compare to McKinnons RFA deal.   Or sign for what he's at now, and score 110.   It's simply not going to happen.   The best we can hope for as a team, is a fair deal.   And as a fanbase, don't want to see him get butchered signing for 14% of the cap, and not scoring 40 plus goals and 110 points every year either. 

[IBatch]

20 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

No way at this point should Pettersson make 500k less than McDavid 10-11 MAX and closer to the 10 

Have to consider cap going up.  A 10 deal is now 10.5 (adding the 5%).   His deal starts around there.   He's as valuable as MT is.   MT did two 100 point seasons.   And was a Conn Smythe guy...we can only hope that's what we have too.    Yes he plays center, MT also brings other things to the table, it's a wash for me.    Barkov is a better comp.   Also gets 10.   So 10 is the starting point.   Add 500k for cap going up and then hash out the term.    And taxes could also play into it.    So could how his season ends too.   If he storms back and up into the top five again..  then maybe he gets paid like a top five player too.   If not he's still getting paid close to that to start next year regardless if he actually is or not. 

Edited January 3 by IBatch

[Bob Long]

15 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Mckinnon signed his deal, then he exploded.  If he exploded a year before, you can absolutely bank on his deal been a lot more.  And the most hysterical thing "I'd do it again every time and will do it again"  was a reply from NM, and said at the time - no freaking way he signs and leaves money on the table, which of course he did not.   Was the highest paid player for a year anyways or was it two.    You need to go back, look at what he'd done, and look at what he signed for.   They actually still paid him based on potential really.   Then he exploded and it became one of the best deals in hockey.   EP isn't going to score 140-150 points a year, which he pretty much have to do signing at 10.5 (and most would consider that team friendly), for it to even compare to McKinnons RFA deal.   Or sign for what he's at now, and score 110.   It's simply not going to happen.   The best we can hope for as a team, is a fair deal.   And as a fanbase, don't want to see him get butchered signing for 14% of the cap, and not scoring 40 plus goals and 110 points every year either. 

 

Have to disagree with you in Macks deal. He was that teams future, and did take less than he could have. Don't forget it was pre Makar. 

[IBatch]

22 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Have to disagree with you in Macks deal. He was that teams future, and did take less than he could have. Don't forget it was pre Makar. 

In 2015-2016, he just scored 52 points, was also struggling to play a full season, but he was still second pairing level.  After scoring 38 his sophomore season.   For sure the team banked on him getting better.  

 

 He signed a 7 year deal at 8.63 of the cap, which today would be like signing someone 7.2 x 7.   For 63, 38,  52 points.   For sure his draft position was considered.    Otherwise it would have looked a lot more like Horvats deal.   By comparison, Tavares and Stamkos, guys who tore it up or did a lot better on their ELC's..   Look what EP signed for, and what he'd managed.   7.2 was a good deal for Mckinnon.    He could have bet on himself, like Tavares and Stammer, went for the safe money.     RFA deals, are not supposed to be UFA deals.   Unless a player is so ridiculously good, you pay them (McDavid, Crosby, Ovi, Stammer).    Stammer got 11.66% of the cap, after more points then the Sedins managed all but one year, 52 and 46 goals, and the same cap hit on a five year deal, and that's exactly what the Sedins signed for as UFAs, after just a couple PPG seasons....   Tavares also did a lot more,  and got 8.55%.     So yes, examples of recent first overall picks says, Nathan Mckinnon didn't sign a team friendly deal.  

Edited January 3 by IBatch

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

In 2015-2016, he just scored 52 points, was also struggling to play a full season, but he was still second pairing level.  After scoring 38 his sophomore season.   For sure the team banked on him getting better.  

 

 He signed a 7 year deal at 8.63 of the cap, which today would be like signing someone 7.2 x 7.   For 63, 38,  52 points.   For sure his draft position was considered.    Otherwise it would have looked a lot more like Horvats deal.   By comparison, Tavares and Stamkos, guys who tore it up or did a lot better on their ELC's, didn't get much more either.   Look what EP signed for, and what he'd managed.   7.2 was a good deal for Mckinnon.    He could have bet on himself, like Tavares and Stammer, went for the safe money.     RFA deals, are not supposed to be UFA deals.   Unless a player is so ridiculously good, you pay them (McDavid, Crosby, Ovi, Stammer).    Stammer got 11.66% of the cap, after more points then the Sedins managed all but one year, 52 and 46 goals, and the same cap hit on a five year deal, and that's exactly what the Sedins signed for as UFAs, after just a couple PPG seasons....   Tavares also did a lot more,  and got 8.55%.     So yes, examples of recent first overall picks says, Nathan Mckinnon didn't sign a team friendly deal.  

 

imo you're undervaluing the elite potential you could see he had, on a team that was struggling. Remember the calls for Sakic to be fired around then too? 

 

I think this is one of those agree to disagree things, but for me, it was a situation where it did feel a lot like he left money on the table to allow the team to get better, as it was really underperforming.

 

And then they "lost" the lotto and ended up with Makar anyway 

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, Heretic said:

Even the media has an ego trip on him:

"Connor McDavid made history in Edmonton’s 5-2 win over Philadelphia on Tuesday, becoming the fifth-fastest player in NHL history to reach 900 points after scoring a goal and four assists in his 602nd game"


How does being 5th make history???

If he was 1st - then sure - that's historic.

 

Canadian sports media when thinking about Connor McDavid. 

[LillStrimma]

56 minutes ago, IBatch said:

  At his age, what you see, is likely what you get aside from maybe one or two outlier seasons.   

I bet you said that about Miller and the Sedins too. 

[IBatch]

11 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

imo you're undervaluing the elite potential you could see he had, on a team that was struggling. Remember the calls for Sakic to be fired around then too? 

 

I think this is one of those agree to disagree things, but for me, it was a situation where it did feel a lot like he left money on the table to allow the team to get better, as it was really underperforming.

 

And then they "lost" the lotto and ended up with Makar anyway 

Just going by what he'd done up until then.   They had a young team, with several pieces, Duchene and Barrie at the time weren't chopped liver, so he wasn't the only guy in town.   I remember that very well.   And that Sakic was heavily criticized for waiting almost a year to trade Duchene.   To a team that just went to the final...and well that pick (getting out off a year - SENs blew up - also became a fourth overall lol, and had best odds to be first!).     Sakic was a genuis and also got lucky (became Byram). 

 

No way he could have predicted getting a first overall for Duchene.    That team needed another center, and Kadri was the man for sure, a great move.   There were a lot more great moves.  Girard.   Manson.   And then support.     McKinnon wasn't expected to challenge Crosby and then McDavid for the best center in the game.    That worked out great for them.     And he didn't leave money on the table again.   He took the money, which I knew he would.   And much deserved.    If he scored like Stamkos did, he'd of got more of the cap.   The fact he got a little more than Tavares, is my point.   Tavares was also touted or hyped a lot more.   Pre-draft. 

Edited January 3 by IBatch

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Just going by what he'd done up until then.   They had a young team, with several pieces, Duchene and Barrie at the time weren't chopped liver, so he wasn't the only guy in town.   I remember that very well.   And that Sakic was heavily criticized for waiting almost a year to trade Duchene.   To a team that just went to the final...and well that pick (getting out off a year - SENs blew up - also became a fourth overall lol, and had best odds to be first!).     Sakic was a genuis and also got lucky (became Byram). 

 

No way he could have predicted getting a first overall for Duchene.    That team needed another center, and Kadri was the man for sure, a great move.   There were a lot more great moves.  Girard.   Manson.   And then support.     McKinnon wasn't expected to challenge Crosby and then McDavid for the best center in the game.    That worked out great for them.     And he didn't leave money on the table again.   He took the money, which I knew he would.   And much deserved.    If he scored like Stamkos did, he'd of got more of the cap.   The fact he got a little more than Tavares, is my point.   Tavares was also touted or hyped a lot more.   Pre-draft. 

 

yeah, I just don't agree. I do think Mac was viewed as a next great C. 

 

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

yeah, I just don't agree. I do think Mac was viewed as a next great C. 

 

Not back then.   Injuries were part of the concern as well.    Nobody predicted that, and neither did he, if he did, gaurantee he would have bridged and taken the next deal.    At least that's what was been written about him.   Gomez and Barzal.  It goes the other way too.    There is no way, he'd of signed that deal, if he knew he was going to put himself into the 14% cap hit area.  

Edited January 3 by IBatch

[canuck73_3]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

Have to consider cap going up.  A 10 deal is now 10.5 (adding the 5%).   His deal starts around there.   He's as valuable as MT is.   MT did two 100 point seasons.   And was a Conn Smythe guy...we can only hope that's what we have too.    Yes he plays center, MT also brings other things to the table, it's a wash for me.    Barkov is a better comp.   Also gets 10.   So 10 is the starting point.   Add 500k for cap going up and then hash out the term.    And taxes could also play into it.    So could how his season ends too.   If he storms back and up into the top five again..  then maybe he gets paid like a top five player too.   If not he's still getting paid close to that to start next year regardless if he actually is or not. 

That is with the cap going up, he's just not a 12 Mill player imo 10-11ish is more than fair and realistic. 

[Ballisticsports]

11 hours ago, IBatch said:

Have to consider cap going up.  A 10 deal is now 10.5 (adding the 5%).   His deal starts around there.   He's as valuable as MT is.   MT did two 100 point seasons.   And was a Conn Smythe guy...we can only hope that's what we have too.    Yes he plays center, MT also brings other things to the table, it's a wash for me.    Barkov is a better comp.   Also gets 10.   So 10 is the starting point.   Add 500k for cap going up and then hash out the term.    And taxes could also play into it.    So could how his season ends too.   If he storms back and up into the top five again..  then maybe he gets paid like a top five player too.   If not he's still getting paid close to that to start next year regardless if he actually is or not. 

Isn't the current Team cap $83.5 and to be $87.6 million next year?

so if he is to take 10-12% of salary cap

He only gets a % of next years cap increase

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, Ballisticsports said:

Isn't the current Team cap $83.5 and to be $87.6 million next year?

so if he is to take 10-12% of salary cap

He only gets a % of next years cap increase

4.1 million is around a 5% increase on 83.5.   So if MT and Barkov are good comps, which his agent has said yes too (that he's in the same range as MT), add his share of the 5%, on deals that were signed when the cap was flat (or going up one million at a time), and you get your 10.5., add 5% to a Barkov deal, is 10.5 today, which is around 12% of the starting cap.  

 

Then I think you will see some added for taxes.   Because Florida is a no state tax team, and like TB, Vegas etc, finds it easier to sign guys to good deals.    Add another 500k, which doesn't cover much of it but at least brings it closer to what guys pay in Alberta and high jock tax states.   I don't think EPs done enough to put himself in that 14% plus payscale.   Would need another 100 plus point season really, at the very least.   But 12-12.5% seems fair. 

[EdgarM]

On 1/2/2024 at 1:49 PM, higgyfan said:

 

I'm not saying Petey is a better player than Miller right now.  I am saying that Petey is still developing

his game and will continue to improve; he's just nearing his peak years.  Similar to Miller was when

he joined the Canucks.  Can you imagine what JT's contract would be like if he were 25 at the time?

 

Once the team has a full complement of top 6 wingers and a top 4d that has offensive/defensive IQ,

this team will become a contender.  With a so-called ET replacement C, I think the team takes a

step backwards. 

I don't know, we just have to look at how Vegas has faired lately and they went to the final in their first season with basically Karlsson. When they won the Cup, they had Eichel and Karlsson. 

We have Miller, who is better then Karlsson, do we really need two star centers in the top six? 

Obviously, we would prefer it, but I am not sold on that we give Petey anything he wants or we are hooped.

Having 4 firsts gives us a lot of options and judging how this management does business, I am not concerned if we have to go down that road. Either we acquire a replacement for Petey in trade with the draft picks, or we draft someone who can eventually replace Miller too as he ages out. Or we do both. 

I agree with others, Petey is truly irreplaceable and I would hate to see him go if that's what he wanted, but I don't think that would set us back because we are definitely going to get very good assets coming back either way.

[higgyfan]

9 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I don't know, we just have to look at how Vegas has faired lately and they went to the final in their first season with basically Karlsson. When they won the Cup, they had Eichel and Karlsson. 

We have Miller, who is better then Karlsson, do we really need two star centers in the top six? 

Obviously, we would prefer it, but I am not sold on that we give Petey anything he wants or we are hooped

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

I can't say I've ever heard a Canuck fan say that and I can't imagine the Canuck

management being that stupid.

 

 

 

Having 4 firsts gives us a lot of options and judging how this management does business, I am not concerned if we have to go down that road. Either we acquire a replacement for Petey in trade with the draft picks, or we draft someone who can eventually replace Miller too as he ages out. Or we do both. 

A contending team will send a player far less than a replacement (and certainly a player that isn't

viewed as a great playoff player).

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

If EP is traded, it will include his agreement to sign with the team he's moving to.  That will definitely

be a contender that likely has 1st rounders in the +25oa area, which is a crap shoot for potential.

The replacement for EP would be a player that isn't viewed as a 1st liner and certainly not

considered a valuable playoff option.

 

 

I agree with others, Petey is truly irreplaceable and I would hate to see him go if that's what he wanted, but I don't think that would set us back because we are definitely going to get very good assets coming back either way.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Other than saying he wants to play on a contending team, has he ever indicated that he wants

to leave Vancouver?  Becoming a contender over the next 2-3 years is in the Canucks

plan.  I like that he wants to play in the playoffs so badly.

 

Imo, losing EP would be a setback for our team.

 

[TheGuardian]

Pettersson will get whatever he wants.

 

Comparisons to McD, McK, Eichel are moot. Those contracts were signed with a flat cap, not one going up by 4/5 million a year.

 

Pettersson has repeatedly stated what he wants, to win, to play for a cup. Not just once.

 

What ever the cap increase next year will be taken up with Pettersson's contract, then add in OEL buyout. 

 

Players taking a chance? When was the last time a player didn't get paid or had a career ending injury at his age and skill level, star power?

 

Hell he could sign 2/3 year deals for the next two or three contracts and still make more and have a better chance at a cup moving from team to team. I don't think he is married or has kids so that part of consideration is out.

 

Another consideration is what is he worth to this team?

 

I just hope the player doesn't become bigger than the team again. That Sedin stuff really set the team back a few years (decade)

[6YPE]

On 1/2/2024 at 4:39 AM, IBatch said:

No, just that he's been falling all over the ice like "Bambi", the last month...this is a discussion if he's a super-star etc,  not yet anyways.    And that's absolutely ok.  He's still elite, and he's still our star, and he's a key part of the team.  

 

It's really  the same thing as calling the Sedins "sissie's - Sisters - soft " etc etc etc.   Just a different slight, well to anyone who's watched the Disney movie, Bambi is more than a baby deer, falling all over.   Like I said, i get that it's frustrating, in the same way the Sedins had a difficult time adjusting to the dead puck era, NHL, if they only peaked when the WCE express was going, we'd have a couple cups, even with Cloutier in net, or Skudra or whomever.    A lot of players also had a really tough time back then, including star players.   Zubov at 37 exploding for 71 points.   Alfie and Sakic scoring over 100, at ages 34 and 37, Jagr and Thornton having a field day after the lockout, and the Sedins gaining the space they needed from the Hatchers and Ludwig's, who didn't last long at all.

 

 That was a rep, that followed them around, all the way to when Torts was here, to the point he addressed almost right away, taking a big stab at our media, saying they weren't "soft" and were "tough", it was a reputation that he assumed...and he's an NHL coach!.  

 

Torts letting the media to be accountable off the hop,  and did it classy, but was also bluntly telling them to cut it out, and that he wouldn't be putting up with that either (has a legendary rep with protecting his players, at every stop, especially NYR, as far as the media is concerned).    When we say stuff like that, it persists.    It's a realization i've had, and probably been just as bad at times too, so have been part of the problem at times too.    Trying to do better as a stakeholder.    Peace!  If I replied to the wrong poster (didn't go back), then sincere apologies.   

 

The point is, we don't have to pick on our stars, and as stakeholders, if we do better as a whole, that's something the players could consider when choosing their legacy spot.   You can bet that some of the guys on the team, do social media.    This is the platform for the team.   Albeit unofficial, if anything it's more honest too which is fine.   Peace!   I'm sure some of his "falling down" is deliberate, nice way to draw a penalty, as well.   

I have to say he's definitely uping his game, like I said somewhere, I hope he proves me wrong and it looks like he's working it... Lol

[Tusk]

Well, we should send them all to the all star game, if you go on twitter you can search for #NHLAllStarVote and just re-tweet everyone that shows the following.

There doesnt seem to be a limit on voting, but I used up all my tweets for the day I guess ha ha.

Lets have more canucks than Leafs at the all star game in toronto!

 

#NHLAllStarVote Elias Pettersson

#NHLAllStarVote JT Miller

#NHLAllStarVote Brock Boeser

#NHLAllStarVote Thatcher Demko

#NHLAllStarVote Filip Hronek

[Tusk]

Just now, Tusk said:

Well, we should send them all to the all star game, if you go on twitter you can search for #NHLAllStarVote and just re-tweet everyone that shows the following.

There doesnt seem to be a limit on voting, but I used up all my tweets for the day I guess ha ha.

Lets have more canucks than Leafs at the all star game in toronto!

 

#NHLAllStarVote Elias Pettersson

#NHLAllStarVote JT Miller

#NHLAllStarVote Brock Boeser

#NHLAllStarVote Thatcher Demko

#NHLAllStarVote Filip Hronek

Elias Petterson is trending today at 80K tweets so I am not the only one voting

[Dizzle]

I wonder if the fact that the cap is about to jump is part of the reason Petey and his agent are waiting to sign. Do we know what it’s supposed to do in 2026/27 yet? That could be worth waiting to see for Petey because the percentage only goes up. 

[Tusk]

11 minutes ago, Dizzle said:

I wonder if the fact that the cap is about to jump is part of the reason Petey and his agent are waiting to sign. Do we know what it’s supposed to do in 2026/27 yet? That could be worth waiting to see for Petey because the percentage only goes up. 

The cap is not going to "Jump" as much as everyone's contracts jump.

We are going to lose some good players because of UFA's this summer

 

Canucks cap goes down because of the OEL cap hit:

2023-24    2024-25    2025-26    2026-27    2027-28    2028-29
$146,667    $2,346,667    $4,766,667    $4,766,667    $2,126,667    $2,126,667

 

So maybe he can do a bridge deal to 2027-28 when there is a bit of room, but Quinn will have to be renewed as well by then.

 

[Dizzle]

1 minute ago, Tusk said:

The cap is not going to "Jump" as much as everyone's contracts jump.

We are going to lose some good players because of UFA's this summer

 

Canucks cap goes down because of the OEL cap hit:

2023-24    2024-25    2025-26    2026-27    2027-28    2028-29
$146,667    $2,346,667    $4,766,667    $4,766,667    $2,126,667    $2,126,667

 

So maybe he can do a bridge deal to 2027-28 when there is a bit of room, but Quinn will have to be renewed as well by then.

 

 

His ask will be based on a percentage of the cap as per what comparable players around the league are signing for. If the cap goes up, his ask goes up. It's simple math.

 

That being said, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes. Maybe he ends up taking a bit less to play for the team now that we're winning, or maybe he decides he hates Vancouver and doesn't sign no matter what the offer.