Alflives Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, bishopshodan said: Yes. You and I have been saying this about our core for a while now. It's why my microscope is tighter these days. Brass included. This is our window. Plan the parade. Have we ever had a core this elite and complete? 2011 was close but didn’t have a franchise D. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanucksJay Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 22 minutes ago, stawns said: My eye test doesn't back that up. Kuz will never be mistaken for a defensive fwd or a gritty forechecker, but he's not lazy and he doesn't float. He's an opportunistic scorer who is in the right place at the right time. They knew that when they re-signed him and now, all of a sudden, they want dismantle and rebuild his game......at 27 years old. Sorry, that's not going to end well for anyone How can you write him off from rounding out his game? Boeser did it at 26 why not Kuz at 27? Being F1 and fore checking hard is a lot easier than improving your skills at 27. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, CanucksJay said: How can you write him off from rounding out his game? Boeser did it at 26 why not Kuz at 27? Being F1 and fore checking hard is a lot easier than improving your skills at 27. No, boeser has not. He did for a short period of time this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 20 minutes ago, stawns said: My eye test doesn't back that up. Kuz will never be mistaken for a defensive fwd or a gritty forechecker, but he's not lazy and he doesn't float. He's an opportunistic scorer who is in the right place at the right time. They knew that when they re-signed him and now, all of a sudden, they want dismantle and rebuild his game......at 27 years old. Sorry, that's not going to end well for anyone He doesn't have to be some crazy two way forward. They are asking him to protect the puck more. Be more active in the shooting lanes on the defensive side. That doesn't mean he has to hit. Just block shooting lanes, be aggressive after the puck. Don't force plays in the offensive zone, and turn pucks over. Everyone is painting this as some impossible add? Kuz can do it, and still have offensive flair. Basically they want Kuz to play like Hogs and Garland. The coaches are willing to work with him. I know it's different than what Kuz is used to. But good players can adapt. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, Ghostsof1915 said: He doesn't have to be some crazy two way forward. They are asking him to protect the puck more. Be more active in the shooting lanes on the defensive side. That doesn't mean he has to hit. Just block shooting lanes, be aggressive after the puck. Don't force plays in the offensive zone, and turn pucks over. Everyone is painting this as some impossible add? Kuz can do it, and still have offensive flair. Basically they want Kuz to play like Hogs and Garland. The coaches are willing to work with him. I know it's different than what Kuz is used to. But good players can adapt. The point of the discussion isn't whether he does or doesn't, the point is they have to do something with him.......either play him or trade him. What they're doing now is destructive on multiple fronts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimito Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 the sky's falling. Only 6-2-2 last ten. Fire the coach, trade everyone. Rebuild! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, stawns said: The thing is, he's not a bad player away from the puck. He plays decent positional hockey, doesn't give the puck away anymore than anyone else and always works hard. I honestly don't know what Tocchets issue with him is. I think it's that he's always standing still and when he gets it he immediately starts thinking of doing some kind of cool fun playground trick to score, which admittedly he is really good at. He continually passes up the opportunity to get it in deep and use his teammates and staples that the team are taught. In this fashion he is continually opening us up for an odd man counter attack which goes against the basic fundamentals of hockey that Tocchet is trying to teach. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 5 minutes ago, stawns said: The point of the discussion isn't whether he does or doesn't, the point is they have to do something with him.......either play him or trade him. What they're doing now is destructive on multiple fronts We signed him as FA. No assets were given up. Hockey players aren't shares in a company, or houses to be flipped. Seems both sides want him to do well. You're being melodramatic. I'd hate to see how this current fan base would have handled when Messier got here. When Quinn was fired, and the literal destruction of a hockey team before our eyes. Only good thing is Quinn stole Naslund from Pittsburgh before he was fired. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, Gawdzukes said: I think it's that he's always standing still and when he gets it he immediately starts thinking of doing some kind of cool fun playground trick to score, which admittedly he is really good at. He continually passes up the opportunity to get it in deep and use his teammates and staples that the team are taught. In this fashion he is continually opening us up for an odd man counter attack which goes against the basic fundamentals of hockey that Tocchet is trying to teach. I disagree, but don't disagree tht he'll never be mistaken for a defensive stalwart. It's unlikely he'sgoing toremakehis game at this point, especially when what he was doing was working for him. He is who he is and that's not likely to change much. If that's the typeof player the Canucks want,then they need to cut bait before they tank his value altogether Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 1 minute ago, Ghostsof1915 said: We signed him as FA. No assets were given up. Hockey players aren't shares in a company, or houses to be flipped. Seems both sides want him to do well. You're being melodramatic. I'd hate to see how this current fan base would have handled when Messier got here. When Quinn was fired, and the literal destruction of a hockey team before our eyes. Only good thing is Quinn stole Naslund from Pittsburgh before he was fired. no assets were given up, but assets can be had if they move him. By not moving him and not playing him, they are devaluing him with every game he doesn't play. and we had a good discussion going here without people running other people down for their opinions or lobbing personal insults. Let's continue that hey? Edited January 5 by stawns 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 2 minutes ago, stawns said: no assets were given up, but assets can be had if they move him. By not moving him and not playing him, they are devaluing him with every game he doesn't play. You are still getting something from nothing. Edited January 5 by Ghostsof1915 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, Ghostsof1915 said: You are still getting something from nothing. can you elaborate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, stawns said: As an educator I can tell you that you can't use the same tool for every problem. This is true, but you also have a base line you work from.... I'm not an educator, but I have had my fair share of people to train, for me to know, you do, what you believe will achieve success. If that doesn't work, then you may try in other ways. Nevertheless, there is a limited time only for you to get to people, thus you can't go on forever.... in the end, this is a results business... as bad as it may sound, its win or bust. So you do it they way, you believe it will be a success. I am not saying this is the end of the road for Kuz, but Tocchet wants his team to play in a certain way, and then it is for the players to adapt. If the player can't adapt, then the end result won't be a big surprise. $5M in the press box won't be a thing for long... Tocchet believes he knows the way to success, and so does JR and PA, otherwise he would have been given this gig. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 5 minutes ago, stawns said: can you elaborate? If you get a 7th round draft pick for him. We didn't give up any assets to get him. You're getting something from nothing. Just because it's not the return you think he's worth. Doesn't mean another GM in the NHL thinks the same way. Bottom line, there's no indications that Kuz is demanding to be traded. I think you are painting a picture of him as a player that he can't be a better all around player. I'm saying if he works with the coaches, and works hard like Garland and Hogs, he will not only be defensively better. But he will either catch opposite teams flat footed, or steal the puck and get chances, and his offense will also improve. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 4 minutes ago, spook007 said: This is true, but you also have a base line you work from.... I'm not an educator, but I have had my fair share of people to train, for me to know, you do, what you believe will achieve success. If that doesn't work, then you may try in other ways. Nevertheless, there is a limited time only for you to get to people, thus you can't go on forever.... in the end, this is a results business... as bad as it may sound, its win or bust. So you do it they way, you believe it will be a success. I am not saying this is the end of the road for Kuz, but Tocchet wants his team to play in a certain way, and then it is for the players to adapt. If the player can't adapt, then the end result won't be a big surprise. $5M in the press box won't be a thing for long... Tocchet believes he knows the way to success, and so does JR and PA, otherwise he would have been given this gig. but you get results by making sure you customize your approach based on the specific needs and learning style of each individual. You can't just yse the same blunttool for every person. It never works out. They need to salvage this situation and sitting him in the pressbox isn't the way to do it, imo 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said: If you get a 7th round draft pick for him. We didn't give up any assets to get him. You're getting something from nothing. Just because it's not the return you think he's worth. Doesn't mean another GM in the NHL thinks the same way. Bottom line, there's no indications that Kuz is demanding to be traded. I think you are painting a picture of him as a player that he can't be a better all around player. I'm saying if he works with the coaches, and works hard like Garland and Hogs, he will not only be defensively better. But he will either catch opposite teams flat footed, or steal the puck and get chances, and his offense will also improve. so you've got a 39 goal, 74 point guy with a ton of value at the start of the year and it's ok if you completely destroy that value because you didn't give anything up to get him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Heffy Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, stawns said: so you've got a 39 goal, 74 point guy with a ton of value at the start of the year and it's ok if you completely destroy that value because you didn't give anything up to get him? This reminds me of when AV decided to sabotage Ballard's career and Gillis just let it happen instead of a trade or coaching change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballisticsports Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Just now, stawns said: so you've got a 39 goal, 74 point guy with a ton of value at the start of the year and it's ok if you completely destroy that value because you didn't give anything up to get him? Canucks have done more than 1/2 the NHL trades If a team can't trade for him yet (most likely because of cap) It is not the coaching staff fault They want ALL the players to play to a basic staple Kuz knows this and hopefully is going to get it But it is more on the player than anyone else to play The Team's Game 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 2 hours ago, stawns said: The thing is, he's not a bad player away from the puck. He plays decent positional hockey, doesn't give the puck away anymore than anyone else and always works hard. I honestly don't know what Tocchets issue with him is. Could Tocchet maybe be using him as an example to the rest? If you go enjoy yourself durinh the off season, and perhaps not coming in top condition, you may ride the pine, if you don't follow the instructions. Fact is none of us knows, what is going on behind the curtain. For all we know, he may say 'f you' to what the coaching team is asking him to do, once he is on the ice...? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Shackleford Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 7 hours ago, DeltaSwede said: Yeah, I don't get why they have to be attached by the hip. They literally haven't been split up since Mik came back from injury. It's time to try something else 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, spook007 said: Could Tocchet maybe be using him as an example to the rest? If you go enjoy yourself durinh the off season, and perhaps not coming in top condition, you may ride the pine, if you don't follow the instructions. Fact is none of us knows, what is going on behind the curtain. For all we know, he may say 'f you' to what the coaching team is asking him to do, once he is on the ice...? then move him while he's got any value left. He was a 39 goal scorer on a pretty good contract, he had tremendous vallue three months ago. What can they get for him now? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 5 minutes ago, Ballisticsports said: Canucks have done more than 1/2 the NHL trades If a team can't trade for him yet (most likely because of cap) It is not the coaching staff fault They want ALL the players to play to a basic staple Kuz knows this and hopefully is going to get it But it is more on the player than anyone else to play The Team's Game obviously he's either not getting it or RT doesn't like him. Either way, the current apprpach is both killng the player and his value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 10 minutes ago, stawns said: but you get results by making sure you customize your approach based on the specific needs and learning style of each individual. You can't just yse the same blunttool for every person. It never works out. They need to salvage this situation and sitting him in the pressbox isn't the way to do it, imo Again, while this is true, in your profession you are targetting the best solution to make each individual become the best they can be. in team sport you try to make each individual the best they can be for the team... Again we don't know the reason for him being in the pressbox atm. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 2 minutes ago, stawns said: obviously he's either not getting it or RT doesn't like him. Either way, the current apprpach is both killng the player and his value. Hence I also said they need to find a solition to the situation, and I am sure JR/PA will. $5M in the press box is of no use to anyone. PS. They obviously believe in him or they would already have shifted him. Edited January 5 by spook007 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Shackleford Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: I just want to stick to what we know/can prove objectively: 1. Kuz has some of the worst defensive numbers on the team, even with so much time with Petey 2. Rutherford told us his offseason training was wrong 3. His agent says there is a plan everyone is on board with. Lets take the emotion and speculation out of it and what do we have? Pooched offseason training. I believe we can get the player back, but improving conditioning during the season is just so difficult. We may not see it until next season when he can train properly in the summer and will be very very motivated in his one big contract year opportunity. I was thinking of this the other day and I don't think there's a strained relationship like what the media is trying to portray. They said the exact same thing about Miller last season and he's now the golden boy. IMO I'd like to see Petey & Kuz with a forward that can forecheck and dig picks out. Mik is supposed to be that player and started hot but has since cooled down and isn't in on the forecheck hard enough to dig pucks out for Petey and Kuz. Looking internally, I feel like Bains/Podkolzin would be a good player in that spot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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