[PGT] Vancouver @ St. Louis

[stawns]

1 minute ago, spook007 said:

Again, while this is true, in your profession you are targetting the best solution to make each individual become the best they can be. 
in team sport you try to make each individual the best they can be for the team...

Again we don't know the reason for him being in the pressbox atm. 

 

I don't tnink I agree there.  You want kuz to be the best version of himself he can be because that's who he is.  If that's not the type of player you want you find a new place for him to play and you bring a new guy in to take that spot that plays the style you want to play.  He's cleary never going toplay the way RT wants him to play, so why sit him in the pressbox night after night over trading him?  Imagine what he could have brought in even a month or so ago?

[Blue]

50 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

How can you write him off from rounding out his game? 

Boeser did it at 26 why not Kuz at 27?

 

Being F1 and fore checking hard is a lot easier than improving your skills at 27.

 

 

 

Boeser recovered mentally. And he got in ship shape for this season, They didn't transform his game 

[Moeknows]

2 minutes ago, Blue said:

Boeser recovered mentally. And he got in ship shape for this season, They didn't transform his game 

Boeser has been pretty invisable for a while now...but guess he's playing "the right way"

[spook007]

Just now, stawns said:

 

I don't tnink I agree there.  You want kuz to be the best version of himself he can be because that's who he is.  If that's not the type of player you want you find a new place for him to play and you bring a new guy in to take that spot that plays the style you want to play.  He's cleary never going toplay the way RT wants him to play, so why sit him in the pressbox night after night over trading him?  Imagine what he could have brought in even a month or so ago?

You want Kuz to be the best he can be, yes... as long as it doesn't disturb the team dynamics... 

They obviously think Kuz can be part of the team, otherwise he would have been shifted already. 
Again we don't know, what it is they are trying to do/achieve. 
It may be tactical, it may be punishment or it may be setting an example. 
 

There isn't a single fan here, who doesn't love Kuz and his smile, and his team mates are likely the same. But there can be only one captain on the bridge. If the shit hits the fan the buck stops with him. So he has to do, what he think is best for the group/club and not just the individual...

[Gawdzukes]

2 hours ago, bishopshodan said:

Maybe Tocc is over thinking this whole thing. Fixing things that arn't that broke...

 

Too much success too soon could make him think he can do no wrong? 

 

Coming off a good win, changing up that line up heading into a tough road trip was a risky move. It didn't work.

 

 

Maybe, on the other hand if we went into St. Louis and got man handled people would probably be crying foul the other way.

 

Losses do happen. Sometimes you don’t really need to blame someone. Of course hindsight being 20/20 of course it's easy to see after the game the things which could have been done differently. 

 

Would Kuz have impacted the game. Who knows... the whole team was checked tightly. The opposition deserves some credit here.

[PhillipBlunt]

In the end, this team has a winning record overall. They've stayed in the top 5-10 of the league for the majority of this young season. 

 

Alvin has proven to be a remarkably shrewd and intelligent GM, helping mold a supporting staff around the core that Benning drafted. 

 

Tocchet has proven to be a competent tactician and teacher as a coach, in no small part thanks to his assistants.

The team needs another top 6 forward, most likely a RW, and should focus as much on size and tenacity as they do on scoring. 

I could see the 3rd line broken up to give Joshua a shot with Miller and Boeser. Alvin could also trade for a depth forward with some size and truculence to replace Dakota's presence on the 3rd. 

Soucy's return to the defense will have a massive effect. Having such an improved player like Juulsen as a 7th option will be a boon. 

 

I don't hear alarm bells neither do I hear the sounds of a parade. I hear a team learning how to be a contender, which they are now. 

Edited January 5 by PhillipBlunt

[JamesB]

1 hour ago, CanucksJay said:

Well obviously Lafferty isn't the right solution. 

What RT is doing is showing Kuz how aggressively and quickly Lafferty gets in on the forecheck. 

The difference is that once Kuz understands that and gains puck possession by going in quickly, he will actually have the skills and talent to create an opportunity with it. 

Problem is, Kuz doesn't give himself a chance to even have that opportunity to do something with the puck because he doesn't get in fast enough. 

There's no way around it. Petey's a centre so it's unlikely he'll be F1. So that leaves Mik and Kuz to do that. Mik can't be the only one. 

 

1 hour ago, stawns said:

 

My eye test doesn't back that up.  Kuz will never be mistaken for a defensive fwd or a gritty forechecker, but he's not lazy and he doesn't float.

 

He's an opportunistic scorer who is in the right place at the right time.  They knew that when they re-signed him and now, all of a sudden, they want dismantle and rebuild his game......at 27 years old.  Sorry, that's not going to end well for anyone

 

I thought I would chip in. I don't see any inconsistency between the above comments.

 

Tocchet had been clear that he wants Kuzy to do three things better: get in fast on the forecheck, play a more direct ("north-south") game, and be more responsible in his own end. I agree with @CanucksJay that Tocchet basically wants Kuz to play like Lafferty and, with Kuzy's higher skill level, that should translate into more scoring.

 

I also agree with @stawns that Kuzy is not lazy and does not float. He is an opportunistic scorer with a high hockey IQ ("right place, right time") and a high level of creativity in the O-zone. But Tocchet is not prepared to trade-off offensive creativity for a hard, fast north-south game. Tocchet wants everyone to play his style.

 

I have often noticed that Kuzy is in the F3 positive with Mik and Petey getting in first on the forecheck. Maybe that is confirmation bias -- I notice it with Kuzy because I am expecting it. But I think it is a real problem that is supported by the NHL edge data in that Kuzy has relatively few high speed bursts per 60. Anyway, Tocchet wants Kuzy getting in first (F1) or second (F2) most of the time.

 

The question is whether it is possible for Kuzy to play Tocchet's game. He is not a fast skater. And he does not have a high endurance level. Training can help but it cannot work miracles. 

 

I think it is an open question as to whether things will work out with Kuzy. Tocchet did a great job with Miller, Joshua, and Garland. He did enough with Boeser to change him from a liability to an asset, and Hogz is close. Kuzy has been the most challenging "project".

 

 

 

[Gawdzukes]

2 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

That is true. 

AB was getting lots of time before we traded him and he wasn't doing much to warrant it. 

To an extent, so was Garland but now he's too valuable to trade lol

 

I hope not playing Kuz is a sign that we're not showcasing Kuz for a trade. 

It really could be as simple as RT, Gonchar and co telling him this is the time to work on his game because he'll be huge for us in the playoffs when we absolutely need him to be. 

That would fire me up to train harder and not be a bag of negativity while sitting in the PB. 

 

Who knows? Maybe RT and the staff already have a plan in place with Kuzy and Milstein to bring him around slowly with a higher chance of success in sticking with this team. Work hard during practice and play him in the softer games where he can be more comfortable doing things like be the F1 hard on a forecheck when the stakes aren't as high so he doesn't abandon from the game plan and finds success. 

Once he masters that level, he'll start playing in the more grinding physical games. 

 

Funny thing is, at hand no idea what's going on internally and we're complaining or speculating about things we have no idea about. 

The last we heard was from Milstein saying that Kuz is fine and buying in with what the staff wants and is committed to training hard. 

I hope that is still the case and that is what's happening behind the scenes 

 

Very good post. Way to much guessing and gloom dooming the situation. He could very well play tomorrow and be a huge piece moving forward. 

[Dr. Crossbar]

In the thread on the main forum about Tocchet's treatment of Kuz, the question was asked of what the plan was for Kuz. So I looked back to the last time Kuz was scratched in Dallas and put back in the lineup against the Sharks.

 

They are working with him behind the scenes to improve his game. People say that we don't know what's happening behind the scenes ... well ... this below is a glimpse and insight.

 

You can be emotional about Kuz being scratched or try to understand what they are doing and why.

 

This is my post below from the other thread ...

 

So, I went back to the pre-game video for the Sharks game before Christmas. The game where Kuzmenko was put back in the lineup.

 

Tocchet said that when Kuz was scratched in Dallas, they worked with him on specific things in his game. So it's not a situation where Kuz is sitting on his hands being punished. They're actively working with him.

 

Tocchet specifically mentioned they want him to shoot more and to attack more - attack the play, attack the net, attack the forecheck. If he's the first guy there on the forecheck, to really get in there. 

 

So, that's a specific elaboration on what they're working on with him as part of the plan.

 

The Kuz bit starts at :40 ...

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5 by Dr. Crossbar

[Gawdzukes]

2 hours ago, stawns said:

 

Teaching involves practical application.......im not seeing that part.  Teaching without practical application ceases to become teaching and becomes preaching

 

You're also not in the room or at practice. You're missing 95% of the teaching. Kuz has only missed 4 or 5 games. He hasn't been adapting either. 

[stawns]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

In the thread on the main forum about Tocchet's treatment of Kuz, the question was asked of what the plan was for Kuz. So I looked back to the last time Kuz was scratched in Dallas and put back in the lineup against the Sharks.

 

They are working with him behind the scenes to improve his game. People say that we don't know what's happening behind the scenes ... well ... this below is a glimpse and insight.

 

You can be emotional about Kuz being scratched or try to understand what they are doing and why.

 

This is my post below from the other thread ...

 

So, I went back to the pre-game video for the Sharks game before Christmas. The game where Kuzmenko was put back in the lineup.

 

Tocchet said that when Kuz was scratched in Dallas, they worked with him on specific things in his game. So it's not a situation where Kuz is sitting on his hands being punished. They're actively working with him.

 

Tocchet specifically mentioned they want him to shoot more and to attack more - attack the play, attack the net, attack the forecheck. If he's the first guy there on the forecheck, to really get in there. 

 

So, that's a specific elaboration on what they're working on with him as part of the plan.

 

The Kuz bit starts at :40 ...

 

 

 

 

 

I don't care one way about kuz, personally, one way or the other and I'm fine if he's traded........but this can't continue.  Foyr games, 5 games, games on the 4tg line etc.  every move they make that decreases his value.

[stawns]

12 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

You're also not in the room or at practice. You're missing 95% of the teaching. Kuz has only missed 4 or 5 games. He hasn't been adapting either. 

 

Right, so cut bait 

Edited January 5 by stawns

[erkayloomeh]

3 hours ago, stawns said:

 

The thing is, he's not a bad player away from the puck.  He plays decent positional hockey, doesn't give the puck away anymore than anyone else and always works hard.  I honestly don't know what Tocchets issue with him is.

I guess at the end of the day it doesn't matter.  He's an asset that isn't going to be able to contribute.  

If RT doesn't like him for whatever reason  then we need to cash in on that asset. The only way we're going to do that is to get him producing. 

[stawns]

4 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

I guess at the end of the day it doesn't matter.  He's an asset that isn't going to be able to contribute.  

If RT doesn't like him for whatever reason  then we need to cash in on that asset. The only way we're going to do that is to get him producing. 

Agree completely.  He obviously isn't the kind of player they want, so start pumping him up.......give him some leash and put him in a place to succeed between now and the tdl 

[Dr. Crossbar]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

 

I don't care one way about kuz, personally, one way or the other and I'm fine if he's traded........but this can't continue.  Foyr games, 5 games, games on the 4tg line etc.  every move they make that decreases his value.

 

I'm.with you on the not caring ... I'm not getting emotionally invested in it. But it's going to continue and it will continue until Kuz either plays the way they need him to within the system or he'll be traded.

 

I have faith in him knowing they are working with him. I'm guessing no other coach has held him to this level of accountability. Especially if he's never played so strictly this way before or aggressively.

 

I'm trusting in the coaches at the moment despite the loss last night.

[Canuckfanforlife82]

Biggest problem with this team is they are not moving their feet. Two powerplays in the last two games says a lot about that plus they are short two top forwards.

[CanucksJay]

13 minutes ago, stawns said:

 

I don't care one way about kuz, personally, one way or the other and I'm fine if he's traded........but this can't continue.  Foyr games, 5 games, games on the 4tg line etc.  every move they make that decreases his value.

 

I think the brass sees more upside in Kuz and that's why they aren't cutting bait. 

They may think what they are asking him to do is actually teachable and once he learns, he'll be more valuable for us going forward than trading him right now for a 3rd line grinder. 

I think we are super fortunate to be in a situation where we can be patient and methodical in our approach than panicking and trading him looking for immediate results. 

[Ghostsof1915]

Honestly Jay when Boone Jenner comes back from his injury if Columbus offered Boone Jenner for Garland, I'd drive Garland to the airport.

We'd get a bigger winger/centre. And he has a 55%+ Face off percentage. Something this team desperately needs. Yes he's older. But he's also on a cheap cap hit.

[Canuckfanforlife82]

Biggest problem with this team is they are not moving their feet. Two powerplays in the last two games says a lot about that plus they are short two top forwards.

[Canuckfanforlife82]

If Petey/Miller want to be number 1 centers, they have to get better at faceoffs. It’s a huge area where I find we lose the puck in the offensive/defensive zone and it leads to issues. I am surprised that they didn’t work to get better at it in the off-season knowing they were being relied on. I am not sure what can be done but something has to be done about it.

Edited January 5 by Canuckfanforlife82

[AnthonyG]

53 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

In the end, this team has a winning record overall. They've stayed in the top 5-10 of the league for the majority of this young season. 

 

Alvin has proven to be a remarkably shrewd and intelligent GM, who has helped mold a supporting staff around the core that Benning drafted. 

 

Tocchet has proven to be a competent tactician and teacher as a coach, in no small part thanks to his assistants.

The team needs another top 6 forward, most likely a RW, and should focus as much on size and tenacity as they do on scoring. 

I could see the 3rd line broken up to give Joshua a shot with Miller and Boeser. Alvin could also trade for a depth forward with some size and truculence to replace Dakota's presence on the 3rd. 

Soucy's return to the defense will have a massive effect. Having such an improved player like Juulsen as a 7th option will be a boon. 

 

I don't hear alarm bells neither do I hear the sounds of a parade. I hear a team learning how to be a contender, which they are now. 

Agreed
 

Definitely feel we need a top 6 with a bit more game changing speed to open up the ice. Mikheyev was supposed to be that guy, but havent really felt that hes created much separation, which is why I think they are using Lafferty and Suter a bit in the top 6 because of their speed.

 

All I can say is its best we struggle now and figure out how to generate offence and overcome adversity, than to cruise through the season and hit a slump in playoffs.

Take Boston last year for example, a perfect season, no struggles, no adversity…. Everyone was ready to hand them the cup. They match up with Florida who BARELY made playoffs…. Everyone kinda forgot that Florida won the presidents trophy the year prior…. They faced adversity all season long, flip flopping between goalies, struggling to win… They were relatively hot going into playoffs but had a couple losses at the end that almost cost them. They couldnt decide on a goalie in playoffs and then boom, Bobrobsky pulls himself outta the dirt and bounces back, the team infront of him never quit battling and they go on a hell of a run.

 

struggles are not a bad thing, its how long they linger that is to be a concern. This road trip could be what this team needs to find ways to dig deeper and get wins in any way possible.

 

[Ghostsof1915]

2 minutes ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

If Petey/Miller want to be number 1 centers, they have to get better at faceoffs. It’s a huge area where I find we lose the puck in the offensive/defensive zone and it leads to issues. I am surprised that they didn’t work to get better at it in the off-season knowing they were being relied on. I am not sure what can be done but something has to be done about it.

Miller's F/O % is 53.2%

https://www.nhl.com/canucks/player/j-t-miller-8476468

 

Petey, 44.0%.

Suter:  52.4%

Joshua: 45.5%

Bluegar: 52.1%

Aman: 47.3%

 

Seems like Petey, Aman and Joshua are the ones that have to really improve.

[tas]

1 hour ago, Moeknows said:

Boeser has been pretty invisable for a while now...but guess he's playing "the right way"

you're so close to getting it. 

 

the whole reason good pros aim to "play the right way" is so that when they're in a bit of a lull, as happens to every single player every single year, they're not hurting their team. 

[PhillipBlunt]

Just now, AnthonyG said:

Agreed
 

Definitely feel we need a top 6 with a bit more game changing speed to open up the ice. Mikheyev was supposed to be that guy, but havent really felt that hes created much separation, which is why I think they are using Lafferty and Suter a bit in the top 6 because of their speed.

I think the top six has more than enough speed. It needs more size.

Just now, AnthonyG said:

All I can say is its best we struggle now and figure out how to generate offence and overcome adversity, than to cruise through the season and hit a slump in playoffs.

That is an ideal scenario. Learn as you go. Which I believe the Canucks are.

Just now, AnthonyG said:

Take Boston last year for example, a perfect season, no struggles, no adversity…. Everyone was ready to hand them the cup. They match up with Florida who BARELY made playoffs…. Everyone kinda forgot that Florida won the presidents trophy the year prior…. They faced adversity all season long, flip flopping between goalies, struggling to win… They were relatively hot going into playoffs but had a couple losses at the end that almost cost them. They couldnt decide on a goalie in playoffs and then boom, Bobrobsky pulls himself outta the dirt and bounces back, the team infront of him never quit battling and they go on a hell of a run.

And Boston couldn't match their effort. I'm looking forward to seeing the first Canucks game against Boston. I hope they pummel them into the dirt. 

Just now, AnthonyG said:

struggles are not a bad thing, its how long they linger that is to be a concern. This road trip could be what this team needs to find ways to dig deeper and get wins in any way possible.

Agreed. Struggles define as much at triumphs do. 

[Gawdzukes]

2 hours ago, -dlc- said:

Which makes the point of sitting Kuz more than treating him "the same" as others. He's learning differently than the rest but, for some reason, people are upset over that. His plan is tailored to him?

Imagine parents in the class coming to you, complaining that their kid is being treated differently/badly when you're really just tailoring things to what teaches them best. But it's different than their friend sitting next to them.

 

You're supporting exactly what is happening....Kuz is learning based on what they feel best suits him even if it's different than what others are experiencing. We don't get to see what's happening on the bench, in practice, etc. The coaches do.

 

 

 

Great post. Way to many people pretending they know exactly what's happening and it's bad of course. We're literally missing all the information needed to properly asses the situation. Nobody knows exactly what the specific issues are (besides forechecking being one), what Kuz's feeling's are, weather RT is justified in his actions, what he's asking of Kuz to be in the lineup, whether it's working or progressing, or if it's a large cause for concern. He may well play every game the rest of the year.

 

But yeah, RT is doing with Kuz exactly what stawns is preaching, prescribing a plan solely tailored to him, yet he's mad at him for doing it.