Rick Tocchet's treatment of Kuzmenko is starting to get upsetting

[-dlc-]

I guess, for me, the "treatment of" infers it's directed at Kuz when, really, these are overall team decisions. We've heard that it's all good and I think Kuz accepts what is happening as part of the game. We don't have any idea of what's happening behind the scenes and no one seems outwardly upset so not sure why we should be.

 

And we did the same with Hoglander (and Podz), but patience is a virtue.

 

I trust in this organization and what they are doing. I mean, who am I to question things?

[Jeremy Hronek]

8 minutes ago, Hammertime said:

Just needs more produce to produce. 

 

 

 

What the fuck did I just watch?  

[HKSR]

6 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

I guess, for me, the "treatment of" infers it's directed at Kuz when, really, these are overall team decisions. We've heard that it's all good and I think Kuz accepts what is happening as part of the game. We don't have any idea of what's happening behind the scenes and no one seems outwardly upset so not sure why we should be.

 

And we did the same with Hoglander (and Podz), but patience is a virtue.

 

I trust in this organization and what they are doing. I mean, who am I to question things?

Difference is Podz and Hogs had not had a season like Kuz prior to this treatment.  They are also in their early 20s, not a player entering his prime years.  Also they were on ELCs, not $5.5m AAV.  

[HKSR]

17 minutes ago, BC_Hawk said:

I don't see the "fans" treating Tocchet bad or getting upset. Engaged fans just wonder why we have Karsson and Aman both in the lineup in a game where we lacked offense. Petterson has looked great the last few games with Kuz playing; offense from him was invisible last night.

 

Tocchet has done a great job....people are just stating that this is poor asset management with Kuzmenko. Play him or trade him for a piece that will be used.

That's it!  I figured it out! Bench Kuz, Petey struggles, boosts leverage in contract negotiations with Petey! 

 

Now watch Petey get re-signed and all of a sudden Kuz starts playing regularly again haha

[-dlc-]

8 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Difference is Podz and Hogs had not had a season like Kuz prior to this treatment.  They are also in their early 20s, not a player entering his prime years.  Also they were on ELCs, not $5.5m AAV.  

They also played 32 and 25 games wherein Kuz had 81. Matters.

[Hammertime]

19 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Playing guys like Lafferty and Suter on Petey's wing is the dumbest shit ever and I have no idea why Tocchet is doing this.  

Might be the difference between a 9m extension and a 12m extension. Pete has to prove he's a super star if he want's to be paid like one.  And honestly PDG Lafferty and co have played pretty well 

 

Same goes for Kuzz a little tough love now may pay huge dividends if he can add a little blue collar work ethic to his game. 

 

I'm not concerned just yet Kuzz is a big boy he was spoiled last year and a reality check was needed. I don't think he forgot how to produce. 

[HKSR]

40 minutes ago, -dlc- said:

They also played 32 and 25 games wherein Kuz had 81. Matters.

Hogs also played 2 seasons prior at 56 and 60 games, so a total of 141 games prior to getting "this treatment".

 

Podz played 79 and 39 games for 118 games.  

 

Age is the biggest thing for me though (other than the obvious offensive production).  At 28 years old next month, Kuz is gonna be pretty set in his playstyle.  If it doesn't suit Tocchet, then trade him.  Don't have a 39 goal scoring top 6 forward sitting in the press box.  Doesn't do anyone any good.  

 

Edited January 5 by HKSR

[nux_win]

51 minutes ago, BC_Hawk said:

I don't see the "fans" treating Tocchet bad or getting upset. Engaged fans just wonder why we have Karsson and Aman both in the lineup in a game where we lacked offense. Petterson has looked great the last few games with Kuz playing; offense from him was invisible last night.

 

Tocchet has done a great job....people are just stating that this is poor asset management with Kuzmenko. Play him or trade him for a piece that will be used.

I don't agree that we should play him or trade him.  Even if he isn't in the lineup he's still a valuable player.  All it takes is one or two injuries to offensive players and instantly he becomes really valuable.  To me it is a good sign that we have useful players sitting out.  It means we have depth and we're going to need it.  Go Canucks Go!

[Sapper]

I get the first couple of times he was scratched but at this point it is causing chemistry problems with the team and other than the third line the first two lines are both struggling .... Scoring has.really dropped off the last month for the team.

 

We had 4 players in the top 10 scoring this season with the top 3 spots in a row being a Canuck

 

Now we have only 2 ( 6th and 9th for miller and Hughes ). And EP has dropped from.top 10.

 

Kuz wasn't putting up.big numbers when the Canucks where lighting it up ... So playing him did NOT hurt the team scoring. Since his trail of healthy scratches it has impacted team chemistry and not in a good way

 

Either put him.back in and play him or trade him ...... This flippity floppity on the bus off the bus nonsense is distrupting the top 2 lines as they keep juggling and it's impacting some game losses we see because.team scoring has fallen to the third line 

Edited January 5 by Sapper

[AnthonyG]

56 minutes ago, BC_Hawk said:

But Boeser never got the treatment; he just got consistently placed in top6 with minimal effort. He by no means earned it or showed signs of improvement last year. To be honest, the Boeser we have seen the last 5 or so games looks the same way; lazy, no back check, minimal effort in the boards, floating.....

Yes Boeser did get inserted into the top 6 immediately, under different coaching staff. His gifted spot is loooong ago and throughout his career he has shown he is a top 6 player. Kuzmenko just got handed the spot and Tocchet took over late last season, this is a full, fresh season under Tocchet and perhaps he sees habits/behaviour in Kuzmenko and he doesnt take him so serious as a pro. The pop and shit on the bench. That aint a Tocchet type of drink he would want to see on the bench and being the only guy on the team, plus not checking hard or out of position… its easy to start picking him a part and having reasons to sit him. You want to be taken seriously, drop the soda and pick up something that will help hydrate you and give you longer lasting energy. 
Boeser showed changed last season soon after Tocchet took over. Boeser has been the one forward on his line covering for the dman anytime they jump. He covered D a few times last night. There were a few plays he was in the corners in both ends of the ice battling.  He’s not perfect, but there is noticeable change. 

[Strawbone]

I think the team would have had a better chance to win with Kuzy in the lineup last night, and that's what bothers me more than any sort of issue between Tocchet and Kuzmenko. I get that he isn't forechecking as much as he maybe could, but I also haven't seen him make any egregious defensive errors recently and he looks like he's working hard, and every few games you know he's going to make a really nice play to generate a goal. It really does feel like Tocchet is making an example of him because he doesn't feel like Kuzy is 100% buying in to the system, but maybe he's just not that kind of player, and I still think he's more of an asset than a liability on the ice.

 

Given more playing time and a chance to gain some confidence, he'll start scoring again and the team could have used another goal last night. And I think having Petey playing with a world-class goal-scorer is better than someone like Lafferty who hasn't done much of anything in a while.

 

Reminds me a bit of Phil Kessel, who was never known for his tenacious forechecking or defensive play but most nights he gave the team a better chance to win than without him. Play the guy! After a loss, he probably gets in to the lineup next game anyhow.

[HKSR]

1 minute ago, Sapper said:

I get the first couple of times he was scratched but at this point it is causing chemistry problems with the team and other than the third line the first two lines are both struggling .... Scoring has.really dropped off the last month for the team.

 

We had 4 players in the top 10 scoring this season with the top 3 spots in a row being a Canuck

 

Now we have only 2 ( 6th and 9th for miller and Hughes ). And EP has dropped from.top 10.

 

Kuz wasn't putting up.big numbers when the Canucks where lighting it up ... So playing him did NOT hurt the team scoring. Since his trail of healthy scratches it has impacted team chemistry and not in a good way

 

Either put him.back in and play him or trade him ...... This flippity floppity in the bus off the bus nonsense is distributing the top 2 lines as they keep juggling and it's impacting some game losses we see because.team scoring has fallen to the third line 

It's the trickle down effect of taking a bona-fide top 6 forward out of the lineup.  Bottom 6 players are having to plug the hole in the top 6 and then 13th and 14th forwards are having to plug bottom 6 roles.  It hurts more than a lot of people realize when you bench an offensive talent like Kuz WITHOUT a true top 6 replacement.  

[nux_win]

56 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Kuzmenko looked like he almost teared up after being interviewed that one night when he was named first star.  Of course he's upset over what's going on.

 

I also prefaced my original by stating that I'm a huge fan of Tocchet's work.    

 

So, what are we arguing about?  

I guess what I'm taking issue with is that you say you are a huge fan of Tocchet's work and yet you still want to second guess him.  And quite aggressively at that.  You made a whole thread just for that purpose.   

 

I also object to the idea that we have to "play him or trade him" (you didn't say those exact words but many people are).  Why are those the only two options?  I think that Kuzmenko is still valuable even if he's not playing right now.  One or two injuries to offensive players and suddenly he's really valuable.  Good teams have depth and that means sitting effective NHL players sometimes.  We're going to need that depth.  GCG!

[Jaimito]

Kuz is only scratched on the road.   

 

Seems like Toc is shielding him due to lack of trust. 

 

Onus is on the player to get better.  Dakota responded.  Hoggy to some degree.   

 

Unless he has already tune out on the coaches, you keep working with him.  Nux can afford to do that now, since overall record is still pretty good.  

[Hammertime]

25 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Hogs also played 2 seasons prior at 56 and 60 games, so a total of 141 games prior to getting "this treatment".

 

Podz played 79 and 39 games for 118 games.  

 

Age is the biggest thing for me though (other than the obvious offensive production).  At 28 years old next month, Kuz is gonna be pretty set in his playstyle.  If it doesn't suit Tocchet, then trade him.  Don't have a 39 goal scoring top 6 forward sitting in the press box.  Doesn't do anyone any good.  

Brock Boeser 17 hits 

Mikheyev 18 hits

Kuzz 3 hits

total 38 hits

 

Pete 42 hits 

 

Its not fair that Pete has to do all his own dirty work because his wingers are baby shit soft. It makes sense to me why we see PDG and Lafferty riding shotty. We got a top 6 of guys who all want the puck but none of them want to go get it. 

 

These guys are their own worst enemys. 

Edited January 5 by Hammertime

[BC_Hawk]

10 minutes ago, nux_win said:

I don't agree that we should play him or trade him.  Even if he isn't in the lineup he's still a valuable player.  All it takes is one or two injuries to offensive players and instantly he becomes really valuable.  To me it is a good sign that we have useful players sitting out.  It means we have depth and we're going to need it.  Go Canucks Go!

5.5m cap hit; he is not depth player at that salary.

 

Once again, this is not about player building or such, it is asset/cap management. IF Kuzmenko is not a player that Tocchet trusts or will play in the Top6 at full minutes, it is time to make a trade and use that cap space more prudently. We can argee that Myers is over paid, but at least we amortize the cap hit nightly.

[Devron]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Playing guys like Lafferty and Suter on Petey's wing is the dumbest shit ever and I have no idea why Tocchet is doing this.  

 

If coaching wants Kuzmenko to have less minutes while he gets his conditioning up to snuff, that's fine, but why make Petey suffer for it?

 

Miller-Pettersson-Boeser (welcome back Lotto line)

Joshua-Bluegar-Garland

Mikheyev-Suter-Hoglander

Kuzmenko-Lafferty-PDG

 

Or something like that.  So - if it truly is an issue of getting Kuzmenko's fitness back, then fine, but atleast give Petey some good line mates. 

Problem with that is teams just need to focus on shutting down the top line. Solution. Play Kuzy. I’m getting frustrated as well. 

[HKSR]

5 minutes ago, Hammertime said:

Brock Boeser 17 hits 

Mikheyev 18 hits

Kuzz 3 hits

total 38 hits

 

Pete 42 hits 

 

Its not fair that Pete has to do all his own dirty work because his wingers are baby shit soft. It makes sense to me why we see PDG and Lafferty riding shotty. We got a top 6 of guys who all want the puck but none of them want to go get it. 

 

These guys are their own worst enemys. 

If Kuz or Mik are not the right fit, then move 1.  Don't bench the guy and plug a bottom 6 forward into the role where they now have to face the other teams top defensive shut down units.  It neuters the offence from that line.

[BC_Hawk]

15 minutes ago, Strawbone said:

I think the team would have had a better chance to win with Kuzy in the lineup last night, and that's what bothers me more than any sort of issue between Tocchet and Kuzmenko. I get that he isn't forechecking as much as he maybe could, but I also haven't seen him make any egregious defensive errors recently and he looks like he's working hard, and every few games you know he's going to make a really nice play to generate a goal. It really does feel like Tocchet is making an example of him because he doesn't feel like Kuzy is 100% buying in to the system, but maybe he's just not that kind of player, and I still think he's more of an asset than a liability on the ice.

 

Given more playing time and a chance to gain some confidence, he'll start scoring again and the team could have used another goal last night. And I think having Petey playing with a world-class goal-scorer is better than someone like Lafferty who hasn't done much of anything in a while.

 

Reminds me a bit of Phil Kessel, who was never known for his tenacious forechecking or defensive play but most nights he gave the team a better chance to win than without him. Play the guy! After a loss, he probably gets in to the lineup next game anyhow.

Phil Kessel is a great analogy of Kuzmenko. Work with Kuz to remove the poor decision making from his game (give always at centre ice and above the hashmarks), but accept he will never be a true 200' player. If that is unacceptable, trade him for an asset that would be worth the 5.5m on a cap strapped team.

[Jeremy Hronek]

4 minutes ago, Devron said:

Problem with that is teams just need to focus on shutting down the top line. Solution. Play Kuzy. I’m getting frustrated as well. 

With the way Joshua-Bluegar-Garland have been playing however, that might not be the case.

[Jeremy Hronek]

1 minute ago, BC_Hawk said:

Phil Kessel is a great analogy of Kuzmenko. Work with Kuz to remove the poor decision making from his game (give always at centre ice and above the hashmarks), but accept he will never be a true 200' player. If that is unacceptable, trade him for an asset that would be worth the 5.5m on a cap strapped team.

Maybe to the Habs for Josh Anderson. Similar cap hit + Anderson’s lower point total is offset by his heavier style of play.

[BC_Hawk]

16 minutes ago, HKSR said:

It's the trickle down effect of taking a bona-fide top 6 forward out of the lineup.  Bottom 6 players are having to plug the hole in the top 6 and then 13th and 14th forwards are having to plug bottom 6 roles.  It hurts more than a lot of people realize when you bench an offensive talent like Kuz WITHOUT a true top 6 replacement.  

Agreed, and also hurts taking a REALLY good fourth liner like Lafferty and replacing him with Karlsson. Not that Karlsson is bad, just that a potential 4th line of PDG (I know he is injured)-Suter-Lafferty is SO much better.

[Devron]

1 minute ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

With the way Joshua-Bluegar-Garland have been playing however, that might not be the case.

Maybe. Can they continue a 50 point pace. They are a great line but 3rd line they are in my option. We could have 2 top scoring lines too. I don’t know. 

[BC_Hawk]

3 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Maybe to the Habs for Josh Anderson. Similar cap hit + Anderson’s lower point total is offset by his heavier style of play.

That would be a great trade, but I think the Habs are in the same boat; Caufield and Suzuki lack size in Top6 too.

[Hammertime]

1 minute ago, HKSR said:

If Kuz or Mik are not the right fit, then move 1.  Don't bench the guy and plug a bottom 6 forward into the role where they now have to face the other teams top defensive shut down units.  It neuters the offence from that line.

last I checked we are tied for first in goals for. Cry me a river.