Rick Tocchet's treatment of Kuzmenko is starting to get upsetting

[Hammertime]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Kuzmenko is better at EVD than Kucherov. Much better. He was at 71% last year and this year his WAR card shows him at 53%. 
 

Also, do you really think that a Russian player who can score 39 goals in the NHL will need to go back to the KHL?  Do you know how many teams are chasing Kuzmenko right now?  
 

There are lots of NHL coaches who would love to have Kuzmenko on their team. Tocchet isn’t Scotty Bowman. He’s not the end all and the preacher of every coach in the NHL. 

Let's be real here I don't care what his war chart said. I don't think Tocchet is the Jack Adams yada yada. The reality is he's (Kuzz/Brock) cotton candy. And while I love cotton candy I'll probably hurl at the fair on the teacups if I have too much.

[Captkirk888]

3 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

According to Rick Dhaliwal, Dan Milstein turned off his phone last night and didn’t return Dhaliwal’s text messages. So the situation is quite serious and more so than is being let on in the media. 

Or maybe he was tired of Rick constantly pestering him. Thats what reporters do. This could mean something or absolutely nothing. You are speculaing as i pointed out in my post you quoted.

[Captkirk888]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

Sure there is. Kuzy is a found wallet as Burke used to say. We didn't burn a pick or a player for him and it was a bet all GM's would have made.

 

If he's turned into something more productive then what's the problem?

So essentually, if you found said wallet you would walk across the street from your work and hand over the contents to the owner of a rival business for nothing?

[NHL97OneTimer]

I hope Kuz finds his groove and succeeds here.  He's fun to watch when he's engaged.  Boeser has been getting lots of goals in front of the net this season and that's where Kuz used to get the goals for the most part.  So on one hand he's been taken away from his strength this year, but on the other hand I have to agree with RT that he needs to be accountable on both ends and he needs to have some presence along the boards.  Tough to move on from him after he chose the Canucks......but RT is pushing a playoff team game and Kuz isn't giving him that.  

[NHL97OneTimer]

4 hours ago, Tusk said:

I hope he can cook something up with Flames. If they want out of the Hugberdough contract, that is one guy that could play with Petey. If they retained %50 that is a long term contract that would get us past the OEL buyouts.

Seems like a risk, but then Calgary won't retain 50% without a ridiculous package coming back.

Edited January 6 by NHL97OneTimer

[Shirotashi]

15 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

Before I get into this post, I'll pre-face it by stating that I'm a huge fan of Tocchet's coaching and the work he has done in Vancouver.

 

The guy has implemented a very structured system that mandates two-way hockey and holds players accountable.

 

However - perhaps one can make the following argument:

 

1) Poor-to-Mediocre coaches have their heads in their own sphincters with their tongues hanging out (i.e. Willie Desjardins, Tom Renney, Rick Ley, etc.)

 

2) Average to "very good" coaches know how to implement systems and get most of their players to buy in (i.e. Tocchet).  [players need to adjust to the system]

 

3) The greatest coaches in the league know how to implement and tailor systems that cater to individual strengths (i.e.  Pat Quinn, Scotty Bowman, Joel Quennville, etc.). [systems are implemented to maximize player strengths].

 

Which leads me to our current Tocchet/Kuzmenko situation.  For the life of me, I don't understand what the hell Tocchet is doing with Kuzmenko here. Sure, Kuzmenko has significant warts in his game but he also has significant strengths........strengths that we could use right now (i.e. putting the puck in the net].  Instead of trying to fit square pegs into round holes, Tocchet needs to allow a bit of flexibility as far as Kuz goes.  By continuously making him a healthy scratch and/or playing him on the 4th line, all you're doing is hurting the guy's confidence...........and if Tocchet isn't careful, this could start making others in the locker room upset. Kuzmenko is a popular and well-liked teammate that has a lot to offer this team.  Play the guy, give him some rope, and let him play his way out of his funk.  If this isn't an option for Tocchet, then just move the guy ASAP and get rid of the potentially burgeoning elephant in the room.  

Toch has given Kuz plenty of rope and he wasn't even forechecking. When a layman in the media can call out

an NHL player for not forechecking, he's probably not forechecking and if he is not forechecking hes not even

working an honest day and that is what Toch has asked for, is an honest days work. 

 

The more i think about it though the more I realize it may just be about language/culture barriers. Oh and that

whole war and political pressure thing? Yeah that's a thing. Its pretty much Nato vs. Russia rn and ohhh did 

Canada send weapons or no? Not trying to debate who's right or wrong but you cannot ignore anymore that

the war and political pressure are likely factors.

 

[Canuck You]

I haven't read most of the comments on this thread but honestly man, Just give the guy a chance. There was a reason why every other team was after him. At this point they're just fuckin' with his confidence, I've seen him with so many opportunists to bury the puck only to pass it off to make the 'Safe play'..Dudes not 19, he's a skilled vet, Let the man build..

[Rick_theRyper]

19 hours ago, Bob Long said:

So a couple of weeks ago Kuzy's agent says everyone is on the same page and there's a plan. 

 

No one has revealed that plan, and we've only had a handful of games since the comment.

 

Maybe someone can elaborate on what they think the "plan" is and how its not working, before we get upset?

 

The "plan" is just simply a BS answer to media to slow down the speculation. There's no way Kuzmenko is happy with what's going on. Read between the lines. They will always say the ship isn't going down even when there's flames all around them. We're just in the beginning stages here still. If it continues all year I guarantee kuzy wants out and asks for a trade. 

[Bob Long]

3 hours ago, Rick_theRyper said:

The "plan" is just simply a BS answer to media to slow down the speculation. There's no way Kuzmenko is happy with what's going on. Read between the lines. They will always say the ship isn't going down even when there's flames all around them. We're just in the beginning stages here still. If it continues all year I guarantee kuzy wants out and asks for a trade. 

 

The reason I think the plan part is true is his agent - that guy has never been afraid to stick up for his players publicly.

[-dlc-]

What we know this was retweeted by Milstein:

 

We've had 5 games since this was posted and Kuz played in two of them, one the loss to Philly and the other the win vs. the Sens.

 

He was -1 with one shot/1 hit vs Philly and the only other forwards with more ice time were Miller, Petey, Mik.

 

Vs. Ottawa he was +1 with no shots/hits with reduced ice time.

 

I guess I just don't see why we're making this such a talking point right now because "with a few minor adjustments" is likely what they're working on. Give it a chance.

[HKSR]

8 hours ago, Hammertime said:

You're comparing him to Kuch. He isn't Kuch. And we'd like him to be better at EVD than Kuch. I tell my kid all the time you always start out being terrible at everything, because I'm a mean awful dad. no one who was ever any good at anything didn't start out sucking at it. Kuzz has oodles of potential. His commitment will be the difference between him being a KHL star or a NHL star. 

Kuch didn't start off as a top NHL forward.  He had a few years where he was under a PPG, but was struggling in the defensive aspects of the game.  Can you imagine if he was benched and thrown in the press box during those years rather than encouraged to be creative with his talents?  That's where the comparison comes in.  Kuzmenko might not be a 120 or 130 point forward, but I wouldn't put it past him to be a 40 or even 50 goal scorer. 

[bishopshodan]

Wasn't Mik a big part of getting Kuz here?

Am I remembering correctly?

 

I really want to believe they have a plan. If Kuz goes...will it effect Mik? and my biggest concern EP...

[Cuda021312]

On 1/5/2024 at 8:42 AM, BC_Hawk said:

But Boeser never got the treatment; he just got consistently placed in top6 with minimal effort. He by no means earned it or showed signs of improvement last year. To be honest, the Boeser we have seen the last 5 or so games looks the same way; lazy, no back check, minimal effort in the boards, floating.....

I completely agree as I stressed the same on another post. Tocchet needs to stay true to his word and bench those that aren't playing well and constantly making the same mistakes. Boeser should be sitting as his play has been lazy the past five games. He lets the opposition own him like he's a five year old playing with ten year olds. There has been no fight or effort in his game, but he is constantly given top line minutes. Kuzmenko is far better in the slot as his release is far superior to Boeser's. I honestly feel that he would be successful if Tocchet plays him with Miller. At least when Miller and Petterson aren't scoring, they still provide a physical and defensive game. Boeser has always failed to provide that and at least Kuzmenko is quick along the boards with far superior stick skills. It appears to me that Kuzmenko is the whipping boy of Tocchet as every coach seems to have one. I'm tired of watching Aman constantly do flybys, get pushed around and constantly lose the puck. Numbers don't lie!

[6YPE]

No interest in wading through 12 pages to see if this has been posted or not, but maybe it's because of his conditioning, Rutherford just said this a week ago

 

We’re a little bit disappointed,” Rutherford said. “He worked very hard this summer. I think, when you look at his conditioning and you compare him to another person his age, he’s in top condition. He prepared himself, he worked hard at it. Probably didn’t work at the kind of things you need to to be in ‘hockey shape’, and that affected him a little bit.

 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/nhl/rutherford-andrei-kuzmenko-didn-t-work-enough-to-be-in-hockey-shape-remains-a-canuck-as-of-today/ar-AA1lX5wO

[Slegr]

Kuzmenko was exciting to watch tonight. Limited ice time, but several shots and nice plays. I really hope Canucks don’t give up on this guy and trade him for less than he’s worth, because he is an offensive dynamo, and talents of his calibre don’t come around that often. 

[DANJR]

This is my only knock against Tochet so far.  Some birds are meant to fly, so let him Fking fly.

I don't know if that philosphy would turn into more losses.  I'm torn.

[Jeremy Hronek]

The 2022/2023 season stats seems to indicate that Kuzmenko's "dip" in play this season might have more to do with the following:

 

-Unsustainably high shooting percentage

-Not being in shape

 

As opposed to Kuzmenko not being a good fit for Tocchet's system.  Based on Kuzmenko's performance last season under Tocchet, there was no dip whatsoever in AK's performance. In fact, he might have actually played even better.  

 

Kuzmenko's 2022-2023 season output:   39G + 35A = 74P (81 games)

Kuzmenko's production when Tocchet took over last season:   20G + 13A = 33P (36 games)

https://www.espn.com/nhl/player/gamelog/_/id/5077308/year/2023

Edited January 7 by Jeremy Hronek

[Canuckfanforlife82]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

The 2022/2023 season stats seems to indicate that Kuzmenko's "dip" in play this season might have more to do with the following:

 

-Unsustainably high shooting percentage

-Not being in shape

 

As opposed to Kuzmenko not being a good fit for Tocchet's system.  Based on Kuzmenko's performance last season under Tocchet, there was no dip whatsoever in AK's performance. In fact, he might have actually played even better.  

 

Kuzmenko's 2022-2023 season output:   39G + 35A = 74P (81 games)

Kuzmenko's production when Tocchet took over last season:   20G + 13A = 33P (36 games)

https://www.espn.com/nhl/player/gamelog/_/id/5077308/year/2023

Well there is being in shape and then there are things I thought he should have focused on such as his skating and getting more power in his stride and board battles. I am not sure if he worked on either of these things or if he could have in the summer but I think he should have hired a power skating coach to get more power in his stride and to get quicker. It seems like because everything came so easy last year that he thought the same would happen. Hopefully this season is a good learning lesson for him and to show him how quickly things can change in the NHL.

Edited January 7 by Canuckfanforlife82

[kettlevalley]

For me,  Kuz being in proved he should be in the line up and not the press box and that he would be more useful with a better center.  Secondly, reuniting the lotto line just showed that we can up the pressure when we want by playing those 3 together.  Together these things tell me we need to upgrade on Suter. 

[Wiggums]

There was a play in I think the first or second period, kuzy and the boys gained the offensive zone on a rush, it was kind of a broken 3 on 3 almost a 3 on 2 and kuzy tried a spinning backhand pass to the slot, he almost made the pass but it was in someone's feet and the devils were able to recover it and turn the other way into a 3vs3 against us but luckily we were able to stop them just inside our blue line.  It's plays like this that Tocchet hates

[Dr. Crossbar]

30 minutes ago, Wiggums said:

There was a play in I think the first or second period, kuzy and the boys gained the offensive zone on a rush, it was kind of a broken 3 on 3 almost a 3 on 2 and kuzy tried a spinning backhand pass to the slot, he almost made the pass but it was in someone's feet and the devils were able to recover it and turn the other way into a 3vs3 against us but luckily we were able to stop them just inside our blue line.  It's plays like this that Tocchet hates

 

Exactly. Great point.

 

Tocchet has even said this on camera. It's not hidden. Play the right way first - attack the play, the forecheck, and shoot more - AND THEN be creative. 

 

But last night Kuz had six shots on net, so he was shooting more. 

[Boudrias]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

 

Exactly. Great point.

 

Tocchet has even said this on camera. It's not hidden. Play the right way first - attack the play, the forecheck, and shoot more - AND THEN be creative. 

 

But last night Kuz had six shots on net, so he was shooting more. 

Tocchet is up front with what his vision of how to create a CUP contending team. Kuz's 39 goals from last year makes him moveable if PA and RT determine there are better options. All players are faced with hard realities. Their performances are always under a microscope. The beauty of Tocchet's experience is his coaching history and having won CUPS as a player.  

[Dr. Crossbar]

31 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Tocchet is up front with what his vision of how to create a CUP contending team. Kuz's 39 goals from last year makes him moveable if PA and RT determine there are better options. All players are faced with hard realities. Their performances are always under a microscope. The beauty of Tocchet's experience is his coaching history and having won CUPS as a player.  

 

Well said. Especially the part about facing hard realities. That also speaks to what Tocchet is preaching about being uncomfortable and embracing the uncomfortable. That's the gateway to getting better, doing the things that are uncomfortable. 

 

This is about making Kuz a better player and as a result the team better. This isn't about being comfortable. 

 

This is all about getting a Cup. Tocchet and management know what it takes. They've all been there. 

[Chicken.]

12 hours ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:

Well there is being in shape and then there are things I thought he should have focused on such as his skating and getting more power in his stride and board battles. I am not sure if he worked on either of these things or if he could have in the summer but I think he should have hired a power skating coach to get more power in his stride and to get quicker. It seems like because everything came so easy last year that he thought the same would happen. Hopefully this season is a good learning lesson for him and to show him how quickly things can change in the NHL.

It's Kuz's sophomore slump year, if you will. He'll turn it around.

[BC_Hawk]

23 hours ago, kettlevalley said:

For me,  Kuz being in proved he should be in the line up and not the press box and that he would be more useful with a better center.  Secondly, reuniting the lotto line just showed that we can up the pressure when we want by playing those 3 together.  Together these things tell me we need to upgrade on Suter. 

Suter has played great. I actually like the idea of a Mik-Suter-Kuz line playing against lesser opponents. The problem is that it leaves a hole at 4th Line C. Aman just looked horrendous there on saturday night. He is more a depth 4th line winger in my opinion. Is it worth giving Raty a try at some point??

Edited January 8 by BC_Hawk