Hughes is finally getting the recognition he deserves

[Pears]

1 hour ago, Diamonds said:

I'm not sure Tocchet is actually a lock. Absolutely he will have heavy consideration and he should pretty easily be a finalist. However, Bowness should also receive a decent amount of consideration and honestly what Torts has done with a Philly team that doesn't have a single elite player on it is really impressive.

I agree. I've always said great coaches will always get the best out of players regardless of their overall skill, but a lack of high end talent will catch up sooner than later. 

[Miss Korea]

12 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Honestly, I pretty firmly disagree with this. I think Hughes is in strong contention for 2nd, but I still have Makar pretty notably ahead of Hughes defensively, and he's probably better offensively by a little bit too.

 

11 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Quite surprised to see that given Makar has the same amount of points in 4 fewer games. I think Makar is usually more dynamic up front and versatile in offence, he looks like a winger out there, whereas Quinn is a bit more localised to the blueline. Makar does have a real clutch/playoff factor as well which we're not sure about yet in Hughes.

 

I think Hughes is better defensively, we've seen Makar make some pretty dumb plays defensively and he does get caught out of position a lot. When you watch the Avs play they do a bit like the Lotto Line + Hughes - they have a forward back to rotate with Makar the same way we do with Hughes. 

 

The big decider, whether people like it or not, is that massive +33 of Hughes compared to Makar's +10.

 

There's always a prestige factor with the Norris, so because Makar's won it before he might get some more credit. To be honest though whoever leads the defencemen in scoring usually just wins it anyway.

 

6 hours ago, Tocchet.A.Hockey.God said:

I hate to say it but Makers going to win and deservingly so 

 

Hughes 11 G 41 A 52pts in 44 games

 

Maker 10 G 42 A 52pts in 40 games 

 

If Maker gets more pts in fewer games on a weaker team he is going to win and if you take the Canuck bias away that's a deserved win. If Maker played for the Canucks and had the Col record this fan base would be mad as hell if Hughes won  

 

 

There is a fundamental misunderstanding of where these two players generate good offence and good defence.  This year has seen a remarkable transformation in Quinn Hughes.  He has elevated every conceivable part of his game, including the intangibles.

 

But let's start with the tangibles.  Hughes has generated more offense than Makar.  He has generated more scoring chances and more primary assists than Cale Makar.  There was a recent stretch where Makar had been scoring mostly secondary assists.  Nearly all the offensive metrics favour Quinn Hughes except for raw point production.  It's not a large disparity between the two but there is a clear front-runner. 

 

Defensive metrics are also favoring Hughes.  Any Avs fan will tell you that they have experienced some frustrating comeback losses.  Indeed, there have been enough instances of Makar making mistakes in his own zone for his underlying numbers to fall.  We are now at a point where Quinn Hughes is notably better defensively this year.  Keep in mind that a good defender not denies zone entry anf suppresses shots.  They also must retrieve the puck and successfully bring it out of the zone.  That is a defensive metric and something Hughes does flawlessly.  With Hronek, I cannot recall a time when those two failed to move the puck forward.  In contrast, there have been instances this year when Makar either got pressured or straight-up made a mistake leading to an opposition scoring chance.

 

So yes.  Quinn Hughes has proven himself to be the superior player this year, both offensively and defensively.  Higher expected goals.  Lower expected goals against.  Higher scoring chance generation.  Higher scoring chance denial.  It's all there.  But if nothing else...

 

... You can always rely on those intangibles.  The media loves a good narrative and last year was the exiled Karlsson making a Renaissance-like resurgence to top form, hitting that historical number of 100 points.  This year, Hughes checks every box.  The level of improvement from one year to the next is insane.  The dramatic turnaround of this team's fortunes with our new captain is insane.  Hughes has emerged as a dark horse Hart candidate because of his massive contribution to the team's success.  But the Hart trophy will likely be awarded to Nate MacKinnon, who has largely outshone his teammate.  There is no doubt as to who our most valuable player has been.

[Elias Pettersson]

15 hours ago, Alflives said:

Hughes will put up 105 points, win the Norris and the Conn Smythe, and be in the first convertible of the club’s Cup parade down Georgia this coming June. 

 

What about the Hart trophy?  Can Hughes go for all 3 plus the Stanley Cup and become the only player to do it other than Bobby Orr who did it twice?

[Elias Pettersson]

5v5 points:

 

Quinn Hughes - 34

Cale Makar - 26

 

Also, Hughes is a +33 and Makar is a +10.  These two numbers are huge IMO.  I think both players hit 100 points.  But the +/- difference is so massive that it might push Quinn over the top IMO.  

[HKSR]

3 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

 

 

There is a fundamental misunderstanding of where these two players generate good offence and good defence.  This year has seen a remarkable transformation in Quinn Hughes.  He has elevated every conceivable part of his game, including the intangibles.

 

But let's start with the tangibles.  Hughes has generated more offense than Makar.  He has generated more scoring chances and more primary assists than Cale Makar.  There was a recent stretch where Makar had been scoring mostly secondary assists.  Nearly all the offensive metrics favour Quinn Hughes except for raw point production.  It's not a large disparity between the two but there is a clear front-runner. 

 

Defensive metrics are also favoring Hughes.  Any Avs fan will tell you that they have experienced some frustrating comeback losses.  Indeed, there have been enough instances of Makar making mistakes in his own zone for his underlying numbers to fall.  We are now at a point where Quinn Hughes is notably better defensively this year.  Keep in mind that a good defender not denies zone entry anf suppresses shots.  They also must retrieve the puck and successfully bring it out of the zone.  That is a defensive metric and something Hughes does flawlessly.  With Hronek, I cannot recall a time when those two failed to move the puck forward.  In contrast, there have been instances this year when Makar either got pressured or straight-up made a mistake leading to an opposition scoring chance.

 

So yes.  Quinn Hughes has proven himself to be the superior player this year, both offensively and defensively.  Higher expected goals.  Lower expected goals against.  Higher scoring chance generation.  Higher scoring chance denial.  It's all there.  But if nothing else...

 

... You can always rely on those intangibles.  The media loves a good narrative and last year was the exiled Karlsson making a Renaissance-like resurgence to top form, hitting that historical number of 100 points.  This year, Hughes checks every box.  The level of improvement from one year to the next is insane.  The dramatic turnaround of this team's fortunes with our new captain is insane.  Hughes has emerged as a dark horse Hart candidate because of his massive contribution to the team's success.  But the Hart trophy will likely be awarded to Nate MacKinnon, who has largely outshone his teammate.  There is no doubt as to who our most valuable player has been.

If @Miss Korea favors Hughes over Makar for top defenceman this year, you know how far Hughes has come since last season.  At the 1/2 way point, Hughes deserves it more than Makar... BUT we have another 1/2 season to go...

[Miss Korea]

5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

What about the Hart trophy?  Can Hughes go for all 3 plus the Stanley Cup and become the only player to do it other than Bobby Orr who did it twice?

 

5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

5v5 points:

 

Quinn Hughes - 34

Cale Makar - 26

 

Also, Hughes is a +33 and Makar is a +10.  These two numbers are huge IMO.  I think both players hit 100 points.  But the +/- difference is so massive that it might push Quinn over the top IMO.  

 

+/- is a very misleading and frankly outdated stat.  A PP goal is still a goal.  Having a lethal powerplay is not a valid point of criticism against a team, and yet +/- does nothing to capture that lethality.  Your +/- can actually only go down on the PP by surrendering a shorthanded goal.

 

As an example, McDavid used his insane production to create the best powerplay of all time last year.  Interestingly, the team's conversion rate only went UP I'm the postseason.  Does the scoresheet care how the goals were scored?  No.  If you want, you can use analytics to extrapolate an expected goals (xG%) metric.  But even then, does that number care how the chances are generated?

 

Which brings me to this year.  If Nathan MacKinnon continues to play the way he is, he is going to win the Hart.  A lot of his points come on the powerplay.  And now the Avs' PP% is going up.  That's what happens.  On the flip side, the +/- leaders are Hughes/Hronek, Dylan DeMelo and Gustav Forsling.  If those guys overtake Hughes, does that suggest anything?  Does Hronek's identical +/- suggest he is as good of a player as his partner?  No.

 

Hughes will win because he is winning in the metrics that matter most.  He is generating more offence.  He is generating more defence.  He is also generating a crap-ton of wins.

 

1 hour ago, HKSR said:

If @Miss Korea favors Hughes over Makar for top defenceman this year, you know how far Hughes has come since last season.  At the 1/2 way point, Hughes deserves it more than Makar... BUT we have another 1/2 season to go...

 

One player has always performed objectively better than the other.  And this year, the shoe is on the other foot.  If the Avs maintain their torrid pace on the powerplay (and guys like Rantanen figure their shit out), I wouldn't be surprised to see Makar outscoring Hughes.  And that won't be enough for me.  Hughes has been the driving force all over the ice and it positively affected everyone else.

 

And of course... I say this as probably one of the biggest Makar fans in the forum.  I have watched enough games this year to notice he has taken a step back while Hughes has launched himself to the moon.

[MikeyD]

21 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Makar has not had as strong of a year as the one before.  Injuries have affected his play a bit, especially on defence.  He is still an electric player who frequently goes off for 3 points a night, but he's also made some notable defensive gaffes (rare as they are).  They're not going to rank him above Hughes this year.

 

 

 

Quinn Hughes went from being an elite transition playmaker last year to some kind of alien monster this year.  His play really started to pick up around this time last season, when Tocchet took over.  Before then, he was putting up points but the rest lagged behind.

 

A year ago:

 

 

Versus:

How the hell was his defensive metrics so low last year? He was great defensively... Been very similar to this year. I wonder if other less individual factors really play a role in those stats. 

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

How the hell was his defensive metrics so low last year? He was great defensively... Been very similar to this year. I wonder if other less individual factors really play a role in those stats. 

Just proves how useless those charts are.

[MikeyD]

Also one thing I would like to note, is I think there is a massive difference between Hughes at the beginning of this year to Hughes that we have at the halfway season mark. Hughes absolutely dominated every single game at the beginning of this year. He commanded the blue line and made forwards look silly trying to defend him. He's definitely lost a lot of that pep. Every five or so games we see that shine again, but I think with the scheduling and fatigue build up over the season, that's why we see it less.

 

I haven't seen a defender that dominant offensively and defensively maybe if ever (I'm not old enough to have seen much of Orr, but undoubtedly from everything I have seen of him this is exactly how good he was all of the time). He has gone from "there's no chance Makar catches him" to "maybe there's a chance Makar catches him" and it's a bit sad to see. Would love to see that takeover again. It's so bloody fun to watch and usually when he is doing that stuff we win the games handedly. 

[Miss Korea]

16 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

How the hell was his defensive metrics so low last year? He was great defensively... Been very similar to this year. I wonder if other less individual factors really play a role in those stats. 

 

You really don't know why...?

 

 

If you truly think individual factors do NOT play a role in these numbers, than why should Quinn Hughes get credit for the numbers he has put up this year?  You can't have this both ways.

 

13 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Just proves how useless those charts are.

 

It does a pretty good job capturing his success this year.  Does a better job proving things than anything you've posted.

[Miss Korea]

3 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Also one thing I would like to note, is I think there is a massive difference between Hughes at the beginning of this year to Hughes that we have at the halfway season mark. Hughes absolutely dominated every single game at the beginning of this year. He commanded the blue line and made forwards look silly trying to defend him. He's definitely lost a lot of that pep. Every five or so games we see that shine again, but I think with the scheduling and fatigue build up over the season, that's why we see it less.

 

I haven't seen a defender that dominant offensively and defensively maybe if ever (I'm not old enough to have seen much of Orr, but undoubtedly from everything I have seen of him this is exactly how good he was all of the time). He has gone from "there's no chance Makar catches him" to "maybe there's a chance Makar catches him" and it's a bit sad to see. Would love to see that takeover again. It's so bloody fun to watch and usually when he is doing that stuff we win the games handedly. 

 

The only people here who think Makar is on par with Quinn Hughes right now (this year) are those who simply haven't watched Colorado games.  All they see is Makar scoring points (a lot of secondary assists) and they're panicking.  Any Avs fan will tell you his defending has regressed.  Any Canucks fan will tell you #43's defending has progressed.

[King Heffy]

3 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

It does a pretty good job capturing his success this year.  Does a better job proving things than anything you've posted.

Actually watching the game does a far better job than relying on some analytics dweebs who has zero understanding of the sport.

[Miss Korea]

17 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Actually watching the game does a far better job than relying on some analytics dweebs who has zero understanding of the sport.

 

So what are you trying to say here?  That Hughes was as good of a defender last year?  Or that Makar has not regressed this year?  Or something else? 

[King Heffy]

4 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

So what are you trying to say here?  That Hughes was as good of a defender last year?  Or that Makar has not regressed this year?  Or something else? 

That they were both comparable in both seasons.  Hughes was pretty solid last year.  Bottom line is there's no substitute for watching and understanding the game, no matter what snake oil unqualified clowns like Jfresh try to peddle.

[Miss Korea]

Just now, King Heffy said:

That they were both comparable in both seasons.  Hughes was pretty solid last year.  Bottom line is there's no substitute for watching and understanding the game, no matter what snake oil unqualified clowns like Jfresh try to peddle.

 

Cut the trash talk and make your point with a bit of actual detail.

[King Heffy]

Just now, Miss Korea said:

 

Cut the trash talk and make your point with a bit of actual detail.

My point is that Mikey is shows a clear understanding of the two players, while you keep regurgitating useless stats made up by someone who has zero qualifications to be making any kind of player evaluation.  

[Miss Korea]

11 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

My point is that Mikey is shows a clear understanding of the two players, while you keep regurgitating useless stats made up by someone who has zero qualifications to be making any kind of player evaluation.  

 

Mikey does not understand the chart showing Hughes' defensive metrics already shooting up last season.  Mikey is also making the argument that Makar is on par with Hughes right now.  Do you agree with him?

Edited January 18 by Miss Korea

[King Heffy]

16 minutes ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Mikey does not understand the chart showing Hughes' defensive metrics already shooting up last season.  Mikey is also making the argument that Makar is on par with Hughes right now.  Do you agree with him?

I agree with him.

[Miss Korea]

9 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I agree with him.

 

And anyone who has watched Colorado games will know that is wrong.  As you said, there is no substitute for just watching the games.  I have watched Avs games.  Colorado fans have watched all the Avs games.  I'm telling you that you're both wrong.  They are also telling you you're both wrong. 

 

If you want evidence, I'll be happy to provide both articles AND statistics proving my point.  But this one's on you.  You got to put in the work first.  Show me some evidence or a journalist suggesting Makar has had a better defensive season than Hughes.

Edited January 18 by Miss Korea

[MikeyD]

2 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

You really don't know why...?

 

 

If you truly think individual factors do NOT play a role in these numbers, than why should Quinn Hughes get credit for the numbers he has put up this year?  You can't have this both ways.

 

 

It does a pretty good job capturing his success this year.  Does a better job proving things than anything you've posted.

The thing is that despite lacking team success, Quinn Hughes bolstered literally every partner's net negative defensive metrics into positive ones last year. That's how dominant he was offensively and defensively last year. Every single partner of his when paired with somebody else posted negative metrics until they played with him and then suddenly they all went positive. Regardless of team success or lack thereof, without a doubt he should have had much stronger metrics proving him to be better defensively last year than the numbers posted above. 

[HKSR]

1 hour ago, Miss Korea said:

 

And anyone who has watched Colorado games will know that is wrong.  As you said, there is no substitute for just watching the games.  I have watched Avs games.  Colorado fans have watched all the Avs games.  I'm telling you that you're both wrong.  They are also telling you you're both wrong. 

 

If you want evidence, I'll be happy to provide both articles AND statistics proving my point.  But this one's on you.  You got to put in the work first.  Show me some evidence or a journalist suggesting Makar has had a better defensive season than Hughes.

I think it's a lot of Canucks fans recalling the game the Canucks played against the Avs where Makar was a force, while the Canucks in general looked intimidated.  Until they see a reverse of that game where Hughes dominates, they'll probably be stuck in their mindset.

[MikeyD]

2 hours ago, Miss Korea said:

 

The only people here who think Makar is on par with Quinn Hughes right now (this year) are those who simply haven't watched Colorado games.  All they see is Makar scoring points (a lot of secondary assists) and they're panicking.  Any Avs fan will tell you his defending has regressed.  Any Canucks fan will tell you #43's defending has progressed.

Completely agree. I will also say that Makar's defense was always overrated the same ways many prospects have theirs overrated. It's largely generated on potential. "Sure he makes mistakes, but they'll slowly dwindle down less and less." His defense was always very average. Maybe above average for his age, but average league-wide. He was never a shutdown caliber of defender. He always chased too much. 

[IBatch]

On 1/18/2024 at 3:19 PM, HKSR said:

I think it's a lot of Canucks fans recalling the game the Canucks played against the Avs where Makar was a force, while the Canucks in general looked intimidated.  Until they see a reverse of that game where Hughes dominates, they'll probably be stuck in their mindset.

We had a game late in Bruce's bump, where we scared the crap out of COL fans.   As in we'd end up playing them in the first round.   We beat them.   And those 2 points got us closer to exactly that scenario.   Then they went on and won a cup.   Not sure what game that was.. if it was a game last year then that's a mulligan. 

[Dumb Nuck]

I remember when they had Green in the a favorite for the Jack Adams…….morons.

 

Having said that, this time I agree.

Edited January 19 by Dumb Nuck

[Barn Burner]

https://www.nhl.com/news/topic/nhl-all-star/quinn-hughes-looks-to-keep-improving-with-vancouver-canucks