Hairy Kneel Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 3 hours ago, Barnstorm said: Acquiring ‘Big Zadorov’ was a shrewd move on Allvins part. Securing his brother ‘Bigger Zadorov’ was absolute genius. Who would have thought we’de end up with the elusive Zadorov brothers playing on our team this year? Big and Bigger! That cloning thing Gillis left behind is great. Made 2 Sedin's even. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayDangles Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 7 hours ago, KingRaj91 said: The thing is if you trade Kuz, he's probably going to be a regular 70-80 point guy. He's legit just not a Tocchet player and when the coach has 0 faith in you, you essentially end up playing scared. Tough situation for the guy, he's still a player that has all-star potential in my eyes. That's fine. I'd rather Kuz be a 70pt player for Washington and canucks are $5.5m richer... than have him play here putting up 40pts, being a defensive liability, tanking the 2nd line and costing us $5.5m. Him having success somewhere out east doesn't hurt us at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnstorm Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 17 minutes ago, Hairy Kneel said: That cloning thing Gillis left behind is great. Made 2 Sedin's even. Fortunately Allvin knows his to use it. Cloning is serious business and things can go wrong really fast. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayDangles Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, stawns said: I'm not really saying they did of are mistreating him, obviously he holds responsibility. I am saying the completely mishandled him as an asset. This was a 39 goal, 70+ points guy last season and his style of play was no secret and it was clear, even last season, that RT wanted to change that style of play. As I said earlier, either you're ok with his style or you work to find a new place for him to play. Tocchet uses one tool to try and get a square peg in a round hole and it hasnt worked with Kuz, ever. So, as a coach, you have to try a different approach. Instead, they started negging him, publically, right from his off season training, all the way through to present day. Additionally, he sits in the press box or watches from the bench regularly...........4 months ago, he was an asset that probably would have got a top prospect and a high pick, now they'll be lucky to get a 3rd rounder for him. As far as asset management goes, this is a colossal fail, both by the coach, for not finding a better way to manage your player and by the GM for letting it happen First everyone wants accountability. Then when you hold someone accountable everyone doesn't think it's fair. Make up your mind. Did you not see his terrible giveaway in the 2nd. He actually made 2 giveaways on the same shift! Every "punishment" kuz gets is directly connected to mistakes he is making. I mean all the players talk about how they are playing for eachother, supporting eachother.. that means they are also holding eachother accountable. Im sure the team supports these decisions. Allvin also states in his interview this week that him and Tocc talk about the lineup every game. So clearly upper management agrees with benching kuz. It's not some conspiracy to destroy his career, or tank his value or break him like a wild horse. Kuz has the support of the entire organization, thats years of leadership pedigree all going throuhj video with him, coaching him etc. Its all up to him at this point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayDangles Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Anybody else wanting to see Joshua replace Kuz on pp1? He would be a big body in front of the net, and he seems to have hands in tight for rebounds. Has scored a lot of his goals within 6ft of the blue paint. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 9 minutes ago, JayDangles said: Anybody else wanting to see Joshua replace Kuz on pp1? He would be a big body in front of the net, and he seems to have hands in tight for rebounds. Has scored a lot of his goals within 6ft of the blue paint. nope. Having a rocking 3rd line is what separates the good from the great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimito Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 As long the players don't listen to their press. Just keep working hard and get better each game. Playoffs are a different beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayDangles Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 29 minutes ago, Bob Long said: nope. Having a rocking 3rd line is what separates the good from the great. I didn't say move him off the 3rd line. I said move him onto pp1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimito Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 he's going to get that cup to Vancouver. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimito Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 likely about JR. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusk Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 48 minutes ago, JayDangles said: Anybody else wanting to see Joshua replace Kuz on pp1? He would be a big body in front of the net, and he seems to have hands in tight for rebounds. Has scored a lot of his goals within 6ft of the blue paint. yep, and as long as they keep petey with JT and Brock, would like to see if he can center Kuzy and Mik to get them going. Cause something has to change, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayDangles Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 34 minutes ago, Tusk said: yep, and as long as they keep petey with JT and Brock, would like to see if he can center Kuzy and Mik to get them going. Cause something has to change, for sure. Joshua isn't a centre. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusk Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 28 minutes ago, JayDangles said: Joshua isn't a centre. According to the roster he is https://www.nhl.com/canucks/stats Its also interesting that he has more points than Suter,,, sure more games but his PPG is higher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFaithfulcap Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Mods gonna lock this? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 4 hours ago, stawns said: I'm not really saying they did of are mistreating him, obviously he holds responsibility. I am saying the completely mishandled him as an asset. This was a 39 goal, 70+ points guy last season and his style of play was no secret and it was clear, even last season, that RT wanted to change that style of play. As I said earlier, either you're ok with his style or you work to find a new place for him to play. Tocchet uses one tool to try and get a square peg in a round hole and it hasnt worked with Kuz, ever. So, as a coach, you have to try a different approach. Instead, they started negging him, publically, right from his off season training, all the way through to present day. Additionally, he sits in the press box or watches from the bench regularly...........4 months ago, he was an asset that probably would have got a top prospect and a high pick, now they'll be lucky to get a 3rd rounder for him. As far as asset management goes, this is a colossal fail, both by the coach, for not finding a better way to manage your player and by the GM for letting it happen I think it hard to call it a massive fail, with the team doing as well, as it is... Tocchet has a way, he wants his team to play, and its fair, that a coach wants the team to play the way, he wants. If that means there are casualties along the way so be it... If Canucks had sucked, with the players at his disposal, then it would be a different story. In the wonderful world of hindsight, Kuz should have been traded in the offseason. @IBatch and a few others did advocate that (not me), as he could bring in something very interesting. Had Tocchet or more importantly JR/PA thought Kuzmenko wouldn't fit into his style of hockey, he would without doubt have been dealt, but they obviously though they could get him to perform under Tocchet. It is, what it is, and think Kuzmenkos time in Vancouver is close to over. They need to find a trading partner, maybe 3 way, as $5M is way too much to have in the press box, and he is not doing much better on the ice. If they can get him off the roster, it opens the possibility of signing a good C or winger for the second line... It would be good for the team, if they could get the 2nd line going again, or at least be a top notch shut down line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 6 hours ago, IBatch said: @stawns . Since it's an ongoing topic, curious to as what you think this "massive haul" for such bad asset management, would be. We re-signed him (to a lot of fanfare at the time), what would Kuzmenko, with a two year deal in place, return be? And who would we have (another Beauviller type) to make cap work for that team? He was no Bo Horvat, more than a proven commodity, pretty much as Mr. Reliable, as they come. Other teams were aware of this guy but not sure how aware (KHL career), and everyone was watching EP turn on the afterburners. What would Kuzmenko be like, on another line? How much of that was EP. So what is this mystery deal (not often do teams sign a player, and turn around and deal them) that we supposedly should have got last TDL? Wish we had that sort of hindsight. Wasn't Brock the previous whipping boy? Now it's crickets (at least until an extended dry spell), off to his second (and much deserved) all-star game. Will be fun to see what he can manage this time around. I'm 100% ok with Kuzmneko being a "victim", or a casualty of a better system. Same with anyone really. It was obvious his shooting percentage wasn't sustainable, it's also why he didn't get 7x7 like some were suggesting he should get lol. One year, it was still a lot of money. 25/25 as the par line. Funny how it goes around (whipping boys). Garland. Brock. Elder, Myers. Tochett doesn't deserve to be a whipping boy, that's like making Demko or QHs one. Edit: I think Kuzmenko would be much happier playing with a guy like Zegras. I'm not sure what mystery deal you're talking about, but if Kuz was an RT kind of player, the should have been proactive in the off season or very early in this season. Instead, they've taken the worst possible approach with him. He's now a completely ineffective player with no trade value Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 2 hours ago, spook007 said: I think it hard to call it a massive fail, with the team doing as well, as it is... Tocchet has a way, he wants his team to play, and its fair, that a coach wants the team to play the way, he wants. If that means there are casualties along the way so be it... If Canucks had sucked, with the players at his disposal, then it would be a different story. In the wonderful world of hindsight, Kuz should have been traded in the offseason. @IBatch and a few others did advocate that (not me), as he could bring in something very interesting. Had Tocchet or more importantly JR/PA thought Kuzmenko wouldn't fit into his style of hockey, he would without doubt have been dealt, but they obviously though they could get him to perform under Tocchet. It is, what it is, and think Kuzmenkos time in Vancouver is close to over. They need to find a trading partner, maybe 3 way, as $5M is way too much to have in the press box, and he is not doing much better on the ice. If they can get him off the roster, it opens the possibility of signing a good C or winger for the second line... It would be good for the team, if they could get the 2nd line going again, or at least be a top notch shut down line. Again, I'm only talking about kuzmenko, not the rest of the team 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 5 hours ago, JayDangles said: First everyone wants accountability. Then when you hold someone accountable everyone doesn't think it's fair. Make up your mind. Did you not see his terrible giveaway in the 2nd. He actually made 2 giveaways on the same shift! Every "punishment" kuz gets is directly connected to mistakes he is making. I mean all the players talk about how they are playing for eachother, supporting eachother.. that means they are also holding eachother accountable. Im sure the team supports these decisions. Allvin also states in his interview this week that him and Tocc talk about the lineup every game. So clearly upper management agrees with benching kuz. It's not some conspiracy to destroy his career, or tank his value or break him like a wild horse. Kuz has the support of the entire organization, thats years of leadership pedigree all going throuhj video with him, coaching him etc. Its all up to him at this point. Again, this isn't about his play, it's about the mismanagement of a very valuable asset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 10 minutes ago, stawns said: Again, this isn't about his play, it's about the mismanagement of a very valuable asset. sorry if I missed a response by you on this, but I'm still not clear on what you would have done differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 3 minutes ago, Bob Long said: sorry if I missed a response by you on this, but I'm still not clear on what you would have done differently. After a half a year with kuz and after him training in a way I didn't like, as a coach I'd have told management that he wasn't a player who fit into my plans and probably wouldnt play a prominent role. If the GM didn't move him, I'd find a way to let him be himself, while trying to get best out of him I could and I'd stay on the GM about moving on from him. I wouldn't keep using the same tool over and over again, beating him over the head with it. I wouldn't try to fundamentally change who he is as a player and, in consultation with the GM, destroy his value as an asset, thereby making it far more difficult to get him off the roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 minute ago, stawns said: After a half a year with kuz and after him training in a way I didn't like, as a coach I'd have told management that he wasn't a player who fit into my plans and probably wouldnt play a prominent role. OK thats fair. But if in the exit meeting was Kuzy supposed to come back to camp in good shape and hit the ground running, then you wouldn't make that move. You'd expect improvement. Unfortunately he did whatever the hell Bali was. 1 minute ago, stawns said: If the GM didn't move him, I'd find a way to let him be himself, while trying to get best out of him I could and I'd stay on the GM about moving on from him. I wouldn't keep using the same tool over and over again, beating him over the head with it. I wouldn't try to fundamentally change who he is as a player and, in consultation with the GM, destroy his value as an asset, thereby making it far more difficult to get him off the roster. OK this is where I'm still not clear. "find a way". So Tocc has tried a number of things, from benching, to being on the PP, to trying him on several different lines. We know from the numbers that he's a liability defensively on Petey's line, e.g., so he has to be on a more defensively minded line so he's not a -1 or -2 every game. He's still getting PP time. He doesn't have the skill set to close out games. So he's going to get benched late in the 3rd of most games anyway at this point. I mean what else would you do? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayDangles Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 24 minutes ago, stawns said: Again, this isn't about his play, it's about the mismanagement of a very valuable asset. Kind of a chicken and egg scenario. I feel like Kuzmenkos below average play was what kicked this off, not mismanagement. I don't personally feel he is or has been mismanaged. I think that's just hockey. Some players adjust, some don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, stawns said: I'm not sure what mystery deal you're talking about, but if Kuz was an RT kind of player, the should have been proactive in the off season or very early in this season. Instead, they've taken the worst possible approach with him. He's now a completely ineffective player with no trade value The deal that you think we could have got for him. If he was that horrible, we'd put him on waivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: OK thats fair. But if in the exit meeting was Kuzy supposed to come back to camp in good shape and hit the ground running, then you wouldn't make that move. You'd expect improvement. Unfortunately he did whatever the hell Bali was. OK this is where I'm still not clear. "find a way". So Tocc has tried a number of things, from benching, to being on the PP, to trying him on several different lines. We know from the numbers that he's a liability defensively on Petey's line, e.g., so he has to be on a more defensively minded line so he's not a -1 or -2 every game. He's still getting PP time. He doesn't have the skill set to close out games. So he's going to get benched late in the 3rd of most games anyway at this point. I mean what else would you do? Keep him in case Brocks injured. That's about all they can do. The "Thirst" line, is already our second line. And why wouldn't we be happy about that? It's not ideal of course. We've done this before with David Booth actually. Needed buying out. 4.25 was a higher cap hit too back then. Edited January 19 by IBatch 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 9 minutes ago, IBatch said: Keep him in case Brocks injured. That's about all they can do. The "Thirst" line, is already our second line. And why wouldn't we be happy about that? It's not ideal of course. We've done this before with David Booth actually. Needed buying out. 4.25 was a higher cap hit too back then. Might be reading too much into it, but I get the feeling JR has a deal in the works. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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