[Discussion] Kuzmenko > Mikheyev

[Alflives]

50 minutes ago, DexM94 said:

as a scoring line that doesn't score, what do you mean by "good hockey" ?

and by the way, if we can keep all of them, but reassign 2/3 to anothers duties where they belong i would be ok !

 

Mikheyev in the bottom 6, promote Hoglander

Suter as 4C, find a real good 2C

 

this 2C is way more difficult to get if you don't make room cap wise.

  

We are winning because Mik takes the hard matchups. Why change that? 

[FTG]

The second line doesn't have anyone to drive that line.  Mikheyev and Suter are straight line forwards that don't have the IQ to think two steps ahead.  Not a negative, it's just not part of their game.  Kuz had that skillset, but he also not good enough to drive a line.  The end result is that line becomes relatively invisiable unless Kuz creates some exitement (ie Give it away to the other team or dangle two guys and put it on Suter's stick)

 

In a perfect world canucks keep the Lotto line together and find a playmaking center to be the main driver for that line and we can move Suter down in the line up.  There's a reason why Petey between Mikheyev and Kuz was one of the best lines in the league last year.  This year it's had some struggles with both Mikheyev and Kuz going cold for stretches but the balance in skills is what's needed to be a legit top 6 line.  

 

If we trade Kuz, no matter what winger we place on the 2nd line as is, he will also be negatively affected. A player like Guentzel might slightly improve it, since he is an upgrade, but ultimately it would be the splitting of the lotto line and Petey would go back to playing center.  Even if canucks were to get a center like lindholm, it still results in Petey sliding down, as the 2nd line (without Kuz) doesn't have the skill set to produce at a top 6 pace.  

 

Canucks are tight against the cap which makes things even more complicated, any salary in means cap has to go out.  I would say canucks best solution is to move Mikheyev (to free up his 4.75 cap), slide suter to wing and find a skilled center to drive that line.  

 

On the high end you would be looking to target Eriksson Ek, but the cost of aquisition would be far to much to aqcuire.  Claude Giroux could be a good target, point per game player with playoff experience and 58% in the dot.  Mittelstadt could also be an option as he's rumoured as trade bait this year as a pending RFA.  

 

If you want to look on the lower end, you'd be looking at Boone Jenner or Adam Henrique, since they are not your typical line drivers, you might consider moving out Kuz and setting up that second line as a role match up line with limited offense.  

 

I personally think we are best to go after someone like Giroux.  His cap fits our current roster (comes off before OEL recap really kicks in), Give us a right handed center (we don't currently have one) and can drive a line.  Ideally doesn't cost us too many high end assets.    

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, FTG said:

The second line doesn't have anyone to drive that line.  Mikheyev and Suter are straight line forwards that don't have the IQ to think two steps ahead.  Not a negative, it's just not part of their game.  Kuz had that skillset, but he also not good enough to drive a line.  The end result is that line becomes relatively invisiable unless Kuz creates some exitement (ie Give it away to the other team or dangle two guys and put it on Suter's stick)

 

In a perfect world canucks keep the Lotto line together and find a playmaking center to be the main driver for that line and we can move Suter down in the line up.  There's a reason why Petey between Mikheyev and Kuz was one of the best lines in the league last year.  This year it's had some struggles with both Mikheyev and Kuz going cold for stretches but the balance in skills is what's needed to be a legit top 6 line.  

 

If we trade Kuz, no matter what winger we place on the 2nd line as is, he will also be negatively affected. A player like Guentzel might slightly improve it, since he is an upgrade, but ultimately it would be the splitting of the lotto line and Petey would go back to playing center.  Even if canucks were to get a center like lindholm, it still results in Petey sliding down, as the 2nd line (without Kuz) doesn't have the skill set to produce at a top 6 pace.  

 

Canucks are tight against the cap which makes things even more complicated, any salary in means cap has to go out.  I would say canucks best solution is to move Mikheyev (to free up his 4.75 cap), slide suter to wing and find a skilled center to drive that line.  

 

On the high end you would be looking to target Eriksson Ek, but the cost of aquisition would be far to much to aqcuire.  Claude Giroux could be a good target, point per game player with playoff experience and 58% in the dot.  Mittelstadt could also be an option as he's rumoured as trade bait this year as a pending RFA.  

 

If you want to look on the lower end, you'd be looking at Boone Jenner or Adam Henrique, since they are not your typical line drivers, you might consider moving out Kuz and setting up that second line as a role match up line with limited offense.  

 

I personally think we are best to go after someone like Giroux.  His cap fits our current roster (comes off before OEL recap really kicks in), Give us a right handed center (we don't currently have one) and can drive a line.  Ideally doesn't cost us too many high end assets.    

 

Good to see you back FTG

 

Giroux would be great but he purposely signed in OTT to be close to family and has a full NMC. Don't think he's going anywhere. I'd be VERY surprised anyway.

 

A guy like Ek would be AMAZING...but I'm not sure we can afford the assets...and I'd be surprised if he's realistically available (forr anything short of a major overpayment anyway).

 

Guys like Jenner, Henrique or Bjugstaad would all be very solid additions...but I don't think any of them allow you to keep the lotto line together and revitalize Kuzmenko on their own. Those guys aren't really play drivers. Maybe if they play C to Pettersson and Mikheyev or something you might have something (with Petey doing the play driving). Speaking of Mikheyev....people are being short sighted on Mik IMO...he's still putting up "competent" numbers this season despite coming off major knee surgery where it normally takes the better part of your season to get back to near 100% skating, and recently playing with Suter (good depth player, but over his head as 2C, not a play driver) and a slumping Kuzmenko. Mik's too hard to replace IMO. And as you touched on, he's not a "play driver" (nor is he paid to be one) but we'd be fools to sell low on him right now IMO.

 

As for Guentzel, he offers more than a "slight improvement" IMO. But yes, adding a winger means breaking up the lotto line (which I don't view as a long term solution anyway). Something like:

 

Mik, Petey, Guentzel

Hoglander/Suter, Miller, Boeser

Joshua, Blueger, Garland

Hoglander/Suter, Aman/Lafferty

[FTG]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

 

Good to see you back FTG

 

I pop in once in a while to read on some discussions. 

 

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

Giroux would be great but he purposely signed in OTT to be close to family and has a full NMC. Don't think he's going anywhere. I'd be VERY surprised anyway.

 

Yeah I can get that, I wonder if the play of the sens has opened up any posibility of him rethinking that.  Along with getting near the end of his career.  His play dictates he clearly has more to give.  He would be a great fit for our roster needs.

 

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

A guy like Ek would be AMAZING...but I'm not sure we can afford the assets...and I'd be surprised if he's realistically available (forr anything short of a major overpayment anyway).

 

Bill Guerin had indicated he's not going to be selling. It would be a massive overpay and likely would cost us one (or both) of our top swedish prospects. But a legit #2 center and locked into a really good contract.  

 

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

Guys like Jenner, Henrique or Bjugstaad would all be very solid additions...but I don't think any of them allow you to keep the lotto line together and revitalize Kuzmenko on their own. Those guys aren't really play drivers. Maybe if they play C to Pettersson and Mikheyev or something you might have something (with Petey doing the play driving).

 

 

 

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

Speaking of Mikheyev....people are being short sighted on Mik IMO...he's still putting up "competent" numbers this season despite coming off major knee surgery where it normally takes the better part of your season to get back to near 100% skating, and recently playing with Suter (good depth player, but over his head as 2C, not a play driver) and a slumping Kuzmenko. Mik's too hard to replace IMO. And as you touched on, he's not a "play driver" (nor is he paid to be one) but we'd be fools to sell low on him right now IMO.

 

Realistically if canucks are going to upgrade, some salary will have to be moved out.  Nothing against Mikheyev or Kuzmenko but we're not moving Garland with how well he's played with Joshua and with Soucy out, I can't see them moving Myers.  Short of some really cleaver cap retiension negotions, if we are trying to land a big fish Mikheyev or Kuzmenko have to be on the move.  The one thing about Mikheyev is I do think he's replaceable.  Suter in my opinon is a "close" comparable.  Between the two you give up a little bit of offense but Suter is a bit better defensively and Suter saves us 3.35 on cap.  You're right his value is at a low, but so is Kuzmenko's and us moving either likely costs us some capital.    

 

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

As for Guentzel, he offers more than a "slight improvement" IMO. But yes, adding a winger means breaking up the lotto line (which I don't view as a long term solution anyway). Something like:

 

Mik, Petey, Guentzel

Hoglander/Suter, Miller, Boeser

Joshua, Blueger, Garland

Hoglander/Suter, Aman/Lafferty

 

Yeah, overall it would be a bigger improvement. I was more getting to that the current set up of that line would need to change, putting Guentzel with Suter and Mikheyev doesn't likely change the outlook too much.  That current set up just doesn't have an identity. Pairing EP with Guentzel would ultimataly need to happen.  Him being a rental does help us with freeing some extra cap for next season but i'm also cautious of how much it would cost us in the end.  

[wai_lai416]

On 1/21/2024 at 10:04 AM, Miss Korea said:

Two things.

 

1) Mikheyev is performing as advertised - a middle six winger with good speed and strong two-way play.

 

 

2) He has a no-trade clause.  He will absolutely block a move to a shithole like Columbus.

Except he’s paid like a top 6 and playing in the top 6. I’ve always said mikheyev is a 3rd liner with a career high 32 points. He’s a great 3rd liner but again miscast in the top 6 role just like all the other miscast over the years on the Canucks. We can’t just keep overpaying 3rd liners from other teams based on potential on toss them into a top 6 role and hope EP can elevate and carry them which is what’s been happening over the years. EP have never had an established legit winger in the nhl when he’s on a line of his own. Mikheyev at 3.75-4mil is great he’s overpaid by about a mil. When ep kuz and mikheyev is a line.. they play against other teams top shutdown line and shutdown pairing. That’s well above mikheyev ability offensively. 

[aGENT]

2 hours ago, FTG said:

 

I pop in once in a while to read on some discussions. 

 

 

Yeah I can get that, I wonder if the play of the sens has opened up any posibility of him rethinking that.  Along with getting near the end of his career.  His play dictates he clearly has more to give.  He would be a great fit for our roster needs.

 

 

Bill Guerin had indicated he's not going to be selling. It would be a massive overpay and likely would cost us one (or both) of our top swedish prospects. But a legit #2 center and locked into a really good contract.  

 

 

 

 

 

Realistically if canucks are going to upgrade, some salary will have to be moved out.  Nothing against Mikheyev or Kuzmenko but we're not moving Garland with how well he's played with Joshua and with Soucy out, I can't see them moving Myers.  Short of some really cleaver cap retiension negotions, if we are trying to land a big fish Mikheyev or Kuzmenko have to be on the move.  The one thing about Mikheyev is I do think he's replaceable.  Suter in my opinon is a "close" comparable.  Between the two you give up a little bit of offense but Suter is a bit better defensively and Suter saves us 3.35 on cap.  You're right his value is at a low, but so is Kuzmenko's and us moving either likely costs us some capital.    

 

 

Yeah, overall it would be a bigger improvement. I was more getting to that the current set up of that line would need to change, putting Guentzel with Suter and Mikheyev doesn't likely change the outlook too much.  That current set up just doesn't have an identity. Pairing EP with Guentzel would ultimataly need to happen.  Him being a rental does help us with freeing some extra cap for next season but i'm also cautious of how much it would cost us in the end.  

 

Yeah, I see Kuz as the salary moving out.

 

In theory, we could even extend Guentzel...it would require moving Garland this summer and having Hoglander take over that 3rd line role though.

[Tusk]

10 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

Yeah, I see Kuz as the salary moving out.

 

In theory, we could even extend Guentzel...it would require moving Garland this summer and having Hoglander take over that 3rd line role though.

So be honest... last year and summer did you see Garlund as the "salary moving out" Boeser? maybe both? 

[aGENT]

6 minutes ago, Tusk said:

So be honest... last year and summer did you see Garlund as the "salary moving out" Boeser? maybe both? 

 

I personally would have hung on to Boeser but wouldn't have been shocked to see him moved either. Garland isn't long for this team though IMO, good player or not. When cap push comes to cap shove, $4.95 is a LOT for a 3rd line guy that doesn't play a lot of special teams, is small etc. Especially when Hoglander can likely replace ~85% of what he does (and may very well continue to develop the rest...or beyond) for less than 1/4 of the cap.

[Tusk]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

 

I personally would have hung on to Boeser but wouldn't have been shocked to see him moved either. Garland isn't long for this team though IMO, good player or not. When cap push comes to cap shove, $4.95 is a LOT for a 3rd line guy that doesn't play a lot of special teams, is small etc. Especially when Hoglander can likely replace ~85% of what he does (and may very well continue to develop the rest...or beyond) for less than 1/4 of the cap.

I think the real issue is Petey. 

Miller and Boeser could do the same with Garlund or Hogz on the wing. Petey is a center and he needs to man up between Kuz and Mik. 

If we can deal Petey and get 2, 3 top 6 guys why would we not do that?

[Tusk]

11 hours ago, Alflives said:

We are winning because Mik takes the hard matchups. Why change that? 

before the magical Lotto line.... JT and brock did the hard matchups and scored just as much (if you subtract Petey's points, JT and Brock and whoever they played with had just as many points)

Not only that, JT and Brock were the shut down line, playing against the other team's best.

Petey only had to do one job, center Kuz and Mik.

and not even have to match against the other team.

 

Please "be kind and rewind"

[aGENT]

 

10 minutes ago, Tusk said:

I think the real issue is Petey. 

Miller and Boeser could do the same with Garlund or Hogz on the wing. Petey is a center and he needs to man up between Kuz and Mik. 

If we can deal Petey and get 2, 3 top 6 guys why would we not do that?

 

3 minutes ago, Tusk said:

before the magical Lotto line.... JT and brock did the hard matchups and scored just as much (if you subtract Petey's points, JT and Brock and whoever they played with had just as many points)

Not only that, JT and Brock were the shut down line, playing against the other team's best.

Petey only had to do one job, center Kuz and Mik.

and not even have to match against the other team.

 

Please "be kind and rewind"

 

I think if we're being honest, we can all see that Kuzmenko's (unsustainable last year) shooting % and lack of systems play is the biggest downfall of that line right now. Mkiheyev not being at 100% has slowed him down a little, but he's still playing "competently", even if not blowing the doors off. Petey could probably stand to up his play...he's been quiet for stretches (seems to be coping with a minor injury).  So you have one guy pretty sizably underperforming, one guy's playing competently, coming off major injury and an All Star likely coping with a nagging ailment of some kind. It's not a mystery why they're not currently together.

[Tusk]

6 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

 

 

I think if we're being honest, we can all see that Kuzmenko's (unsustainable last year) shooting % and lack of systems play is the biggest downfall of that line right now. Mkiheyev not being at 100% has slowed him down a little, but he's still playing "competently", even if not blowing the doors off. Petey could probably stand to up his play...he's been quiet for stretches (seems to be coping with a minor injury).  So you have one guy pretty sizably underperforming, one guy's playing competently, coming off major injury and an All Star likely coping with a nagging ailment of some kind. It's not a mystery why they're not currently together.

I think Petey got enough "juice" as tocchet called it. He can go with Mik and Kuz and light things up again. Chicago, St. Louis, CBJ. 

It might be enough to get Kuz and Mik on the board, give them some "juice"

[The Lock]

On 1/21/2024 at 8:20 AM, DexM94 said:

 

it's not a cold streak, it's since Petey left the line. Mikh was a complementary player with Petey, now he can't create any offense at all.
i liked Mikh for his speed, since his injury he lost his fast strides. 

i would keep him if it works cap wise, but we absolutly need a gifted 2C who ressurect the line. 
 

 

We had that gifted 2C last year in Horvat. The result was we didn't make the playoffs because we had too many defensive holes in other spots.

 

Not only that, but we have other lines producing. Right now, players are allowed to have ups and downs in their scoring because other people are making up for it. This is how scoring should be.

 

Defense on the other hand has no excuse to do nothing. This is the problem with Kuz. He's not performing on the defensive side of things and there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to at least try to at least be adequate in that department on a consistent basis. He doesn't have to be the best at it, just good enough at it, but he's not.

[cripplereh]

14 hours ago, DexM94 said:

as a scoring line that doesn't score, what do you mean by "good hockey" ?

and by the way, if we can keep all of them, but reassign 2/3 to anothers duties where they belong i would be ok !

 

Mikheyev in the bottom 6, promote Hoglander

Suter as 4C, find a real good 2C

 

this 2C is way more difficult to get if you don't make room cap wise.

  

What do you mean not good hockey?

 

We see them playing good just not getting points that will happen if they keep their play going.

 

Goalies have made a few unbelievable saves against them,couple bad bounces.

 

Thus is hockey and that happen.Not every bounce goes your way.

 

I ain't making excuses just saying what is going on in games.

[Hairy Kneel]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:52 AM, Alflives said:

We are winning because Mik takes the hard matchups. Why change that? 

But that's a 3rd line role. Not what he's paid for. 2 more years at 4.75M after this one. We can get someone at 2M as a checker. He's paid to score. Unless it was 4.75 as a checker?

[CaptainCanuck12]

This Kuzmenko>Mikheyev theory isn't aging well!

[Ronaldoescobar]

No

[The Lock]

16 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said:

But that's a 3rd line role. Not what he's paid for. 2 more years at 4.75M after this one. We can get someone at 2M as a checker. He's paid to score. Unless it was 4.75 as a checker?

 

And yet, Mik still provides those 3rd line skills when he's not scoring. Kuz might as well be in the AHL when he's not scoring because he's not even providing enough otherwise to even make the 3rd or 4th lines.

[Hairy Kneel]

8 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

And yet, Mik still provides those 3rd line skills when he's not scoring. Kuz might as well be in the AHL when he's not scoring because he's not even providing enough otherwise to even make the 3rd or 4th lines.

Yes Kuz deserves to be scratched for sure. But I don't think last year was an anomaly scoring wise for him. Mikheyev on the other hand has peaked scoring wise. He's lost a lot of his sedinery with that bum knee. I prefer Kuz's upside, aka Boes,Hogs turnarounds. 

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, Hairy Kneel said:

Yes Kuz deserves to be scratched for sure. But I don't think last year was an anomaly scoring wise for him. Mikheyev on the other hand has peaked scoring wise. He's lost a lot of his sedinery with that bum knee. I prefer Kuz's upside, aka Boes,Hogs turnarounds. 

 

Mik's not exactly that far behind what he was doing before in terms of points though. There's also the chance his knee could still get better over time and he redevelops any lost skills. It wouldn't be the 1st time that's ever happened with a player.

 

That being said, Mik's also 29, so I don't know if there was an expectation to become a better player than he was to begin with?

[Hairy Kneel]

22 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

Mik's not exactly that far behind what he was doing before in terms of points though. There's also the chance his knee could still get better over time and he redevelops any lost skills. It wouldn't be the 1st time that's ever happened with a player.

 

That being said, Mik's also 29, so I don't know if there was an expectation to become a better player than he was to begin with?

No but he was speedier and quicker before. More dangerous.  I think he'd be a wonderful 3rd line checker. But needs to move down. 

[The Lock]

Just now, Hairy Kneel said:

No but he was speedier and quicker before. More dangerous.  I think he'd be a wonderful 3rd line checker. But needs to move down. 

 

We'll probably have to agree to disagree. I think there's too much focus on the classic 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th lines when really it should be about how many lines can we roll to make opponents pull their hair out.

 

I think we're doing just fine in that department and that he doesn't need to move down as a result. 

[Miss Korea]

3 minutes ago, Hairy Kneel said:

No but he was speedier and quicker before. More dangerous.  I think he'd be a wonderful 3rd line checker. But needs to move down. 

 

Mikheyev's production has been pretty consistent his entire career and nothing has changed this year.  His underlying metrics look solid too.  The dude is a bona fide middle-six winger.  Sometimes he plays up, sometimes he plays down.  He's a very versatile two-way forward.

[Hairy Kneel]

1 minute ago, Miss Korea said:

 

Mikheyev's production has been pretty consistent his entire career and nothing has changed this year.  His underlying metrics look solid too.  The dude is a bona fide middle-six winger.  Sometimes he plays up, sometimes he plays down.  He's a very versatile two-way forward.

Well that line hasn't been great.

[BPA]

6 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

We'll probably have to agree to disagree. I think there's too much focus on the classic 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th lines when really it should be about how many lines can we roll to make opponents pull their hair out.

 

I think we're doing just fine in that department and that he doesn't need to move down as a result. 

I agree we need to roll 4 lines that are defensively responsible and can be a threat to score.  The 2nd line (Kuz + Mik) is the only line that’s not contributing as much.